SouthernBlue80s Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 (edited) I currently have a fleet of 4 tubby duffs, I have put alot of work into. I am not sure what to do Has anyone got the old Heljan 47 they can photograph next to the new one for me please? Epecially if it is rail blue, as I would like to compare the yellow ends. It is a lot of money to upgrade them all. I want to see if it is worth it. I can either 1.Keep my tubby duffs, which don´t quite cut it next to my newer models. 2.Upgrade to New Heljan. 3.Upgrade to New Bachmann So a photograph or two comparing the two would be of use to me. Some pictures of the existing tubby fleet Edited March 18 by SouthernBlue80s spelling 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted March 17 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17 (edited) 57 minutes ago, SouthernBlue80s said: Epecially if it is rail blue, as I would like to compare the yellow ends. Olivias trains generally post head on shots although they haven't got round to either earlier version yet. It's clearly the same photo although the idea is to show both ends! Edited March 17 by Hal Nail 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mophead45143 Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 12 hours ago, SouthernBlue80s said: It is a lot of money to upgrade them all. I want to see if it is worth it. I can either 1.Keep my tubby duffs, which don´t quite cut it next to my newer models. 2.Upgrade to New Heljan. 3.Upgrade to New backmann Option 3, or 1. Not option 2! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18 On 15/03/2024 at 13:48, MikeParkin65 said: Interesting price drop for those going to Ally Pally Mine was less than that at Ally Pally, not that there was many to be had. I didn't yet find 47555, probably a unique first to go looking for it, and not see it on a day out. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted March 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18 On 17/03/2024 at 08:35, SouthernBlue80s said: I currently have a fleet of 4 tubby duffs, I have put alot of work into. I am not sure what to do Has anyone got the old Heljan 47 they can photograph next to the new one for me please? Epecially if it is rail blue, as I would like to compare the yellow ends. It is a lot of money to upgrade them all. I want to see if it is worth it. I can either 1.Keep my tubby duffs, which don´t quite cut it next to my newer models. 2.Upgrade to New Heljan. 3.Upgrade to New Bachmann So a photograph or two comparing the two would be of use to me. Some pictures of the existing tubby fleet Wait until prices drop, get one and see how it compares and if not happy sell it on RMweb. Lovely work on your 'Tubby Duffs' by the way - there will be a market for them too if you decide to part with them. 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 (edited) Re the "Tubby Duff" I made mind less tubby by rubbing down a slight ridge protrusion in the sides of the chassis and reducing the width of the cab inserts which which otherwise once the chassis had been rubbed down were giving it a dumbbells impression. Edited March 18 by Butler Henderson 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post adb968008 Posted March 18 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted March 18 (edited) Summer 1990-1992 was a fun time in Manchester as a teenager, summer holidays going where butter wouldnt. Whilst I recall 25’s, 40’s, even a 24, 44 and 76’s those day were gone. But life wasnt always boring, the summer would send the South’s finest to the North West… 47573, 579, 47821,835 and 47484/500 were all noteable visitors. 47821 at Wilmslow heading towards Manchester and Here is 47596 at a Station time has forgotten… Clifton, on the Bolton line, today served by 1 each way a day… 47596 on the twice weekly Bolton GUS parcels points to note here, it hasnt yet got a sparrow, and its eth socket is on the buffer beam, as the step is in the way.. its also not got the white lining around the windows. so naturally Heljans announcement of 47596 peaked my interest. I thought i’d compare against two favourites… Heljan 47596 vs 47484 [new] and 47628 [old] 47’s from Bachmann So how does it weigh in…. 567g (New Bachmann is 585g / old Bachmann was 537g). So its there. first the roof… 47596/484/628 Roof shape is very similar, this new Heljan is brought much closer to the Bachmann and Hornby/Lima shape than the old Tubby Heljan 47. Note the panels are different, is this right ? 47628 47596/47484 Theres not much to pick between the roof grills, the fans are not powered. so how does it measure up ? the overall shape, inc the nose profile is pretty good… Heres my measures Heljan 47596 / New 47711 Length over buffer: 254mm / 253 mm (1mm) Length over buffer beam 242mm / 240mm (2mm) Width centre bodyside 35.42 / 35.42 (0mm) Height centre wheel to roof 51.02 / 52.08 (-1.06mm) * note this height as its interesting.. A real 47 is 3.9m / 12’ 9.5” which at 1:76.2 suggests 5.1mm or at 1.76 suggests 5.13mm The Bachmann 47 has two switch's for cab lights, the Heljan 47 does not. The Heljan 47 is powered off the outer and inner wheel, the centre wheen has no gearing, so its in effect an A1A-A1A drive. Heljan has done some under pipe detailing, it maybe fuel tank specific, but Bachmann has done more.. 47596 on top of 47484 on top of 47711 (also new Bachmann) now lets look inside… note the fans arent interior mounted, they were put in from the roof exterior. This isnt what were used to seeing inside a Heljan loco, this boards had some serious attention… The cab lights are plugged in with a tiny jst which has been located opposite ends of the (top corners of the) board but simply reverse socketed (Black/Red one end, Red/Black at the other)… unplugging these turns those cab lights on/off. The roof fans are a separate piece glued in. Theres some definite lineage of Heljan history inside.. Its the same motor as the good old 26/27/33 using the same driveshaft / gearbox clip and tower arrangement. Sound space under the board apparently. On power this thing is a beast… 0.2 amp startup, 0.36amp on full power… the house lights flickered when it started.. its running fine, top speed is good, its responsive but man that thing is hungry. It didnt come down after 10 minutes either. comparisons.. 47596/47711/47628 Amps full 0.36 / 0.18 / 0.13 Amps start up 0.20 / 0.02 / 0.04 Cab interior comparisons… ( The Bachmann cab is inside the body, the Heljan cab is on the chassis)… They do seem a bit different.. Heljan 47596 on the left Theres two quite different interior renditions of the engine room… Bachmanns is different on all 4 window positions, Heljan has two identical pipe runs, and 2 different engine bay renditions. The bogies really brings the difference out, Heljans bogie (47596’ is much less relief, more like older Bachmann or even Lima, where as Bachmanns new 47 (47484) has more relief and separate piping… It looks fine at a glance though. Heres the front of a 47.. 47635 at Doncaster in 2003. Heres Heljans 47..side by side What stands out here is on first glance, the window sill is lower, the windows larger, the frame between the two windows is narrower, the roof arc is shallower… But… The buffer beam is lower ! indeed the whole chassis is… All is not what it seems.. So how about an alignment… yep the Heljan 47 is set lower.. Bachmanns old 47s and new align (47628 and 47484) so how about 47711 and Heljans 47596.. yes 47596 is lower.. look at the bogie / chassis gap on both models but 47596 bufferbeam is a perfect height match to an Accurascale mk2b… Also note the buffer beam step, ive not seen this modelled on a 47 before. To be certain heres 47004 to an Accurascale mk2b and 47004 is higher. I also checked a Hornby 87, Bachmann 37, Hattons 66… the Bachmann 47 is higher… between 1mm and 1.5mm depending how tightly youve screwed the body to the chassis, but its higher. fascinated i put both bodies on the deck, theres not much between then.. Now I will shout out some detail points here.. The glazing of the lights lenses on the Bachmann 47 is top notch, Heljans is more average. The aerial mounts are imo better, the cab window frame width imo looks wrong on both.. to thick on Bachmann too thin on Heljan. You can see the difference in footstep positioning (i think Heljans is too close, but I prefer it to be moulded on, as ive lost dozens of Bachmann front steps over the years !). The curvature of the bufferbbeam at the cab corners on Heljan is a bit rough too. Finally the parts bag has a set of screws to mount the snow ploughs which look very good renditions.. on my one there seemed to be a bit of flash around a headlight, and a bit of over spray around a window frame, but its nothing I cant resolve and no worse than others, I think these were foibles Unique to mine..but hey ho. so my conclusions…. Its good but not great. 1. Its a huge improvement on the old Heljan 47, its much closer to the accept shape of a 47 established by Lima and close to Bachmanns. 2. The ride height imo is looking much better on Heljans 47 than Bachmanns, finding the buffers so high on Bachmann was a surprise i checked against several.. 47004/484/628/711.. they are all around 1mm-1.5mm high. When I put it against several other models like the 37/50/87/mk2b they aligned to Heljans 47… now I see that better ride height I cant miss it, this wasnt expected, and I do like the lower height on Heljans / reduced gap between body and bogie. 3. The lighting is good, shape nice. 4. The front steps in front of the bogies is a nice touch. 5. It has separate handrails on the roof vents. What could be better.. Three words.. The Front end… 1. The headlights lenses 2. The moulding of the bufferbeam/cab corners looks sloppy, you can see a mould line for a cut cab. 3. The cab windows feel a fraction too large 4. I’m not a fan of the A1A -A1A drive arrangement, its a CO-CO, whether its technically better its imo not quite realistic. I’d personally put it in second place behind the latest Bachmann 47, and ahead of the previous Bachmann one. Will I buy more, yes I will, it’s good enough, but I may seek after market lenses if someone makes them that good. Is the roof panels right ? I am concious of its price, and that Bachmanns ended up discounted, so I may wait on the same…. Theres not enough in either new 47 to make me want to trade in my older ones, but theres still gaps out there… For me 47’s is about who makes which livery first, heres a hint… and I still need a 47500 to complete the GW150 line up. Edited March 18 by adb968008 9 5 12 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 I'm amazed no one has picked up on the glaring roof error. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 5 minutes ago, blueeighties said: I'm amazed no one has picked up on the glaring roof error. Lack of hinges were mentioned a few pages back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 7 minutes ago, BR(S) said: Lack of hinges were mentioned a few pages back. The hinges are there but 'incomplete' - the engine access panels should be four, two per side not one long one per side. Division missing. The triple ribs on the engine exhaust panels.....?? To me the Heljan windscreens look a little too deep. The original Tubby Duff also had moulded bufferbeam corner steps - keeping them attached was not easy...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 I'm wondering if aftermarket etched nameplates will fit over the printed names on these 47s and not stick out on both sides. Heljan have previous on this and i'm pointing my finger at you 33114! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 18 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18 46 minutes ago, GD said: I'm wondering if aftermarket etched nameplates will fit over the printed names on these 47s and not stick out on both sides. Heljan have previous on this and i'm pointing my finger at you 33114! I have found Heljan locos can be a little tough to remove names and numbers. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 An excellent comparison and really interesting. It's confirmed to me that the Heljan body looks too tall and thin at the front. I've always found the duff to be a rather deceptive shape in that the body is quite high Vs the chassis which the Bachmann one captures better whereas Heljans looks a bit overweight. But its really interesting that it sounds like Bachmanns too high.... im going to try and find some measurements and have a look at mine. Do you know if they've been fitted with the same wheel sizes? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19 (edited) 10 hours ago, dj_crisp said: Do you know if they've been fitted with the same wheel sizes? Thanks Bachmanns are coming in at 14.98 on the tyres, Heljan is 14.75 tbh 0.23mm is here nor there. Bachmanns wheels are all geared, and the axles set in an axlebox, with the keeperplate having two retaining screws holding the centre in place, and clip fit at the ends. Heljans are annoyingly geared end to end, just ignoring that centre wheel. The bogies are Heljan style push fit side frames, and 8 retaining clips holding the keeper plate in place. The axles dont have axleboxes. Tip for refitting the keeper plate, the word “Heljan” reads upright towards the cab, not the tanks. The side frames, obviously just line the cab steps to the cab door. Both have plenty of grease ! unrelated, but one point I forgot to mention, the radiator grills on the roof is a removable piece (but glued in), and the headcode boxes are a separate piece also. investigating putting a knife groove into the roof to make a slight gap for the roof access panels into 4 instead of 2. fyi Mine was £200 on sat at Ally Pally. Edited March 19 by adb968008 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Brilliant and thanks. Wow that is alot of grease on both of them! I was wondering if Heljan had sneaked in a smaller wheel or Bachmann had done an oversize one but both are a good size. (my goto 47 wheel for EM conversion is Ultrascale 15mm which looks ok for both.) I always find adding grooves difficult in plastic and I hope your attempts go OK. Cheers Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 (edited) 3ft 9 inch wheels so 15mm is correct, until they wear down a bit. Edited March 19 by Butler Henderson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted March 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, dj_crisp said: I always find adding grooves difficult in plastic and I hope your attempts go OK. I tried to turn a Dapol SR van into an uneven plank version. I certainly managed uneven before the filler came out! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted March 19 Moderators Share Posted March 19 Whilst doing the review for BRM I've looked at pics to establish differences and overlaid a 50% transparent pic of the model over this shot - https://live.staticflickr.com/8331/8118839875_cfa20af5df_b.jpg - some alignment issues can be attributed to the focal lengths used but I can see which aren't attributed to that. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold franciswilliamwebb Posted March 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19 Hell! My eyes hurt after that! But I guess that's Wolverhampton for you 😉 2 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halvarras Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 15 hours ago, adb968008 said: I have found Heljan locos can be a little tough to remove names and numbers. Me too. Annoyingly Heljan's last batch of Westerns had their nameplates printed off-centre to the left - I have one to renumber/rename, the new etched plates will cover the printed ones (just) but, thanks to this error, 'WE" and surrounds/backing will need removing on both sides. Grrrr! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 97406 Posted March 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19 42 minutes ago, AY Mod said: Whilst doing the review for BRM I've looked at pics to establish differences and overlaid a 50% transparent pic of the model over this shot - https://live.staticflickr.com/8331/8118839875_cfa20af5df_b.jpg - some alignment issues can be attributed to the focal lengths used but I can see which aren't attributed to that. That reminds me of my last migraine! 2 2 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, AY Mod said: Whilst doing the review for BRM I've looked at pics to establish differences and overlaid a 50% transparent pic of the model over this shot - https://live.staticflickr.com/8331/8118839875_cfa20af5df_b.jpg - some alignment issues can be attributed to the focal lengths used but I can see which aren't attributed to that. Looks like its startled and jumped in fright! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted March 19 Moderators Share Posted March 19 8 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Looks like its startled and jumped in fright! Back to being in Wolvo. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted March 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19 First thing I've seen for years that's pin sharp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 2 hours ago, franciswilliamwebb said: Hell! My eyes hurt after that! But I guess that's Wolverhampton for you 😉 You just need to put on 3D spectacles 🙂 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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