Did Class 21 ever work on cross-London transfer freights?

[Crepello]

That Dapol model looks lovely but I'm wondering if they ever worked to the Southern Region.

[D9020 Nimbus]

David Percival's Kings Cross Lineside 1958–1984 suggests that only class 24s were used for this; it had been intended to use the class 23 "Baby Deltics" but these were banned from the tunnels due to their exhaust fumes.

[Crepello]

Thanks Nimbus. 

Not the only class to be unpopular because of fumes--I read somewhere that the 55s never worked the Royal Train for a similar reason. Fancy being deprived of Deltic haulage, the poor things!

I've got several pics of 20s on the cross-London trains but I'd be surprised if the NBLs didn't get there too, as I'm sure you know they worked on the GE and LTS as well as the GN. 

[The Johnster]

Pretty certain that the other NBL type 2, the class 22 hydraulic which Old Oak had a few of, would have turned upon cross Londons from Acton.  I can remember seeing NBL and BTH type 1s and Brush type 2s at Acton. 

 

Feltham would be the most likely Southern Region destination from Acton. 

  

  

[jonny777]

Wouldn't locos needed for Widened Lines freight trains need to have been trip-cock fitted? 

 

Are there any records of 21s having this addition? 

[TravisM]

From what I recall in the past, in discussion and reading, NBL products on the GN (Class 16’s and 21’s) were effectively only allowed to travel “off line” as far as Temple Mills and Stratford due to their temperament nature.  I also think the Class 21’s were worked quite hard on the GN suburban routes and therefore unlikely to have been used on cross London freights.

 

As Nimbus pointed out, more like to be Class 24’s though BTH Class 15’s weren’t uncommon either.

[chris p bacon]

13 hours ago, jonny777 said:

Wouldn't locos needed for Widened Lines freight trains need to have been trip-cock fitted? 

 

Are there any records of 21s having this addition? 

 

24's were fitted with trip cocks as were 31's, there are no records of 21's ever being fitted or gauged for the widened lines as they weren't really in the South long enough to be considered.

[jonny777]

There is the one photo of D6100 at Moorgate https://railphotoprints.uk/p69735062/hC28F39C5#hc28f39c5 although I suspect from the condition of the loco, that it had not been used a great deal; and that this might have been the first (and subsequently only) trial of a member of the class on that route. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by jonny777

[griffgriff]

17 hours ago, Crepello said:

Thanks Nimbus. 

Not the only class to be unpopular because of fumes--I read somewhere that the 55s never worked the Royal Train for a similar reason. Fancy being deprived of Deltic haulage, the poor things!

I've got several pics of 20s on the cross-London trains but I'd be surprised if the NBLs didn't get there too, as I'm sure you know they worked on the GE and LTS as well as the GN. 

The tight diagrams of a small specialist class would probably have been more of a reason. A tad overpowered too. The royal train seemed to run ok with type 2 power.

 

Griff

[The Stationmaster]

44 minutes ago, griffgriff said:

The tight diagrams of a small specialist class would probably have been more of a reason. A tad overpowered too. The royal train seemed to run ok with type 2 power.

 

Griff

Somehow I doubt a Type 2 could shift and definitely couldn't maintain time with a 'full Royal; 12 coaches plus train.  Even the much shorter 'special trains' loading up to 5 could have problems in some places with Type 4 power - we once had a Class 47 overpowered by a short formation

[Rugd1022]

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Pretty certain that the other NBL type 2, the class 22 hydraulic which Old Oak had a few of, would have turned upon cross Londons from Acton.  I can remember seeing NBL and BTH type 1s and Brush type 2s at Acton. 

 

Feltham would be the most likely Southern Region destination from Acton. 

  

  

 

There's a photo somewhere of one of Old Oak's green liveried 22s on Stratford Shed, there are also one or two of Hymeks and Westerns. As well as working 'up east' they also ventured down to the Thames at Imperial Wharf in Chelsea on trips to the coal yard down there.

[The Johnster]

Not all cross London trips were on the widened lines, as the North London and West London Extension were also available and could be used freely by locos that had not been gauged for the widened lines or fitted with tripcocks.  A Western at Stratford would have almost certainly worked there via the NLR, being too tall for the widened lines.

 

I was given to understand that 47s and 31s were preferred for Royal Train work because of the relative quietness and lack of fumes and the very smooth power take up on starting; this latter requirement mitigated against the WR hydraulics which also suffered from noticeable surges at the transmission changeovers around 40mph.  

[MidlandRed]

D5223 and D5226, in immaculate blue fyp with bulled up details like white buffers, in multiple, pulled the Royal train in the late 60s (particularly 1968) several times. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by MidlandRed

[Pandora]

In his book, Top Shed, Peter N Townsend,  the Shedmaster at  Kings Cross, refers to the diesels of 1959, (page 170/171)  NB1000bhp, EE1100 hp and BRCW 1260hp as all being too heavy to work over Blackfriars Bridge to the Southern Region lines,  was not for another two years when the weight-lightened   Derby Sulzer type 2s began to replace  Hornsey J50s. PNT refers to the NB1000s as poor performers, "on the 1739 ex KX loaded to 9 they were likened to an L1 short of steam".  If they were too heavy for Blackfriars Bridge, would they be fit for use on the North and West London lines over Battersea (Cremorne) Bridge towards the Southern route Wandsworth Road-Nunhead-Hither Green?

Edited August 26, 2019 by Pandora

[jonny777]

Thanks Pandora. I looked through my copy of Top Shed last evening for a comment on diesels that I was sure was there somewhere, but could I find it? 

 

I really must be losing it. 

[slilley]

2 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

There's a photo somewhere of one of Old Oak's green liveried 22s on Stratford Shed, there are also one or two of Hymeks and Westerns. As well as working 'up east' they also ventured down to the Thames at Imperial Wharf in Chelsea on trips to the coal yard down there.

I know from studying records of work at Stratford DRS held by an ex employee that several Hymeks in the 1970s had tyres turned there.

[Oldddudders]

45 minutes ago, Pandora said:

In his book, Top Shed, Peter N Townsend,  the Shedmaster at  Kings Cross, refers to the diesels of 1959, (page 170/171)  NB1000bhp, EE1100 hp and BRCW 1260hp as all being too heavy to work over Blackfriars Bridge to the Southern Region lines,  was not for another two years when the weight-lightened   Derby Sulzer type 2s began to replace  Hornsey J50s. PNT refers to the NB1000s as poor performers, "on the 1739 ex KX loaded to 9 they were likened to an L1 short of steam".  If they were too heavy for Blackfriars Bridge, would they be fit for use on the North and West London lines over Battersea (Cremorne) Bridge towards the Southern route Wandsworth Road-Nunhead-Hither Green?

I suspect that Widened Lines freights used the former upstream bridge at Blackfriars, long since disused, and dismantled in the early ‘80s, with the estimable Elspeth as Resident Engineer. As for Battersea Bridge, I was not aware that weight was an issue until a similar time, the early ‘80s, when the VARS interlocking design was required to prevent more than one train at a time on the bridge, despite double track.

[caradoc]

The LMR sometimes had to use pairs of Class 40s for the Royal Train ! And regarding Class 47 Royal work, I was on duty in Glasgow Control in 1991 when the loco working the Royal Train, bringing the Queen to Glasgow for the Gulf War Memorial service, failed. Thankfully I was not responsible either for the incident or its management........

[adb968008]

Whole page dedicated to Class 25’s on royal train workings, with pictures.

https://www.derbysulzers.com/royaltrain.html

 

whilst not “running” Hither Green had D6122 allocated there between October 1967 and October 1968 for rerailing exercises.

Edited August 27, 2019 by adb968008

[Phil Bullock]

23 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Somehow I doubt a Type 2 could shift and definitely couldn't maintain time with a 'full Royal; 12 coaches plus train.  Even the much shorter 'special trains' loading up to 5 could have problems in some places with Type 4 power - we once had a Class 47 overpowered by a short formation

 

Wasnt 5518 the ER royal train loco late 60s Mike? 

[Wickham Green]

There are all sorts of 'unusual' workings illustrated in John Vaughan's 'Diesels on the Southern' ( eg https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=diesels+on+the+southern&adgrpid=54075308395&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpOy8veGi5AIVkuF3Ch2PeQXHEAAYASAAEgLUt_D_BwE&hvadid=259043747454&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9044978&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=5081011499917549900&hvtargid=kwd-316102969811&hydadcr=24430_1748944&tag=googhydr-21&ref=pd_sl_3ejngyzlj2_b ) ......... my copy's not to hand but I'd be surprised if there's no 'Class 21' in there.

[Rugd1022]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Not all cross London trips were on the widened lines, as the North London and West London Extension were also available and could be used freely by locos that had not been gauged for the widened lines or fitted with tripcocks.  A Western at Stratford would have almost certainly worked there via the NLR, being too tall for the widened lines.

 

I was given to understand that 47s and 31s were preferred for Royal Train work because of the relative quietness and lack of fumes and the very smooth power take up on starting; this latter requirement mitigated against the WR hydraulics which also suffered from noticeable surges at the transmission changeovers around 40mph.  

 

Westerns and Warships were used on the Royal quite often, D1000, D1009, D1010, D1027, and D1045 spring to mind along with D807 double heading with D822 on a Padd - Oxford Royal working in May '68.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Back to NBL 1000hp locos (class 21s). The first batch allocated to Hornsey had London Transport trip cock gear. The Stratford allocation did not as far as I can tell. The GN locos were known to have worked to Moorgate but to date I haven't found any photos of them south of the Thames having worked via Snow Hill. I also have not seen any photos showing the Stratford batch using the East London line, NBL and BTH type 1s and Brush type 2s yes but not NBL type 2s.

 

As stated by Pandora Sulzer Bo-Bos (class 24s) were used on freights via Snow Hill owing to the SR civil engineer stating other classes were too heavy for Blackfriars Bridge. I have seen photos of BTHs crossing Ludgate Hill so I think they were also allowed across Blackfriars Bridge. Cricklewood had a small allocation of Sulzer Bo-Bos for the same reason. Once the Snow Hill line was closed they were sent else where.

 

Baby Deltics were disliked in the tunnels but still carried LT trip cock gear after refurbishment, not sure if they were banned, as I can recall one charging up Hotel Curve going through platform 16 (must have been on a ECS working) with not only smoke coming out the exhaust but flames as well.

 

The lines radiating around London surely must be a modellers dream when it comes to shortish freight trains. The only classes of mainline diesels I have not seen photos of on cross London freights are Deltics, Claytons, D600 Warships, Metro-Vics and Swindon D95xx (if you count them as mainline).

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Wasnt 5518 the ER royal train loco late 60s Mike? 

Could be Phil but they generally only had short formations over there so no real problem.  On the Western the only workings of Royal stock that I ever had anything at all to do with worked by 31s were ECS jobs into Paddington, and 47s were always used as train engines in my time.  The only possible exception I can think of was when the train went on the Ponts Mill branch and that might have used a Type 2 for part of the move but it definitely wouldn't have been a 31.

[Steamport Southport]

16 hours ago, caradoc said:

The LMR sometimes had to use pairs of Class 40s for the Royal Train ! And regarding Class 47 Royal work, I was on duty in Glasgow Control in 1991 when the loco working the Royal Train, bringing the Queen to Glasgow for the Gulf War Memorial service, failed. Thankfully I was not responsible either for the incident or its management........

 

Fantastic footage the other week on the BBC Parliament Channel of the Class 40s going to the Prince Of Wales Investiture. Apparently liked due to them having steam heat, even until the end the Royal Family preferred steam heating and would ask for a steam locomotive rather than a diesel. Obviously that changed with the end of steam and when they switched to ETH and replaced most of the Royal Train carriages.

 

 

 

Jason