'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[PhilJ W]

The bottom line is that if production was brought back from China to the UK they would cost at least five times as much as they do now.

[phil-b259]

38 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

 That some members of the model buying public have been demanding.

 

There are many modellers who were (and still are) perfectly happy with the standard of models produced by Hornby and Lima in the 1980s and 1990s (and possibly earlier), just as in the 80s and 90s there were modellers who were happily buying Wrenn locos even though they weren't up to contemporary standards.

 

 

 

 

 

Strange how all recent RTR entrants have decided to skip this supposedly massive market in recent years choosing to focus on the high detailed (and thus expensive) end of the market isn't it?

 

In reality the truth is somewhat different....

 

If there were that many people wanting 'Lima standard' models then thats what the market would provide in accordance with capitalist / free market theory - Its why we have discount supermarkets like Lidil trading quite happily alongside more expensive ones like M&S, why we have , cheap car brands (Dacia) alongside more expensive ones (BMW) etc

 

The fact that within the model railway sphere the only real player in that 'Lima standard' segment in the past decade is Hornby rather proves the point that its not a money spinner you and others claim it is and if you have capital to invest then selling highly detailed models at high prices gives the greatest finical return.

[RJS1977]

But what delivers the best return for the manufacturer and what the market want are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Yes, there is/has been a very vocal segment of the market that has demanded high-fidelity models, and the manufacturers have been keen to exploit this segment as it offers high profit margins.

 

But - do we really need sprung buffers on everything? Do models need to be "DCC Ready"? (At a rough estimate, approximately 50% of modellers would be perfectly happy buying locos that aren't - and a significant number of DCC modellers would have the skills to convert a loco which isn't). Do we really need manufacturers to design models with interchangeable parts so that they cover off every variation within a class of locos, when making a more generic model would reduce design and assembly costs? The fact we are having this discussion on a thread about generic carriages suggests that accuracy isn't the be all and end all some would say it is.

[phil-b259]

55 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

The fact we are having this discussion on a thread about generic carriages suggests that accuracy isn't the be all and end all some would say it is.

 

True - but the Hattons coaches are still highly detailed models!

 

In most respect it doesn't mater how 'authentic' something - its a case of how labour intensive it is to produce.

 

For example lining out a tank engine in the ornate SECR livery is going to take way more passes through the Tampo printing machine than unlined BR black regardless of whether it is actually a genuine SECR tank engine design or something completely different. The same goes for fitting separate detail parts - it could be the most fictitious loco out but if you plonk lots of separately fitted bits on it labour costs are going to skyrocket.

 

You should also take note that Hattons 'generic' coaches are far more detailed than Hornbys 'generic stock - something many on here have welcomed with open arms even though neither manufacturers range can be said to be a model of any particular prototype.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

50 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

But what delivers the best return for the manufacturer and what the market want are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Yes, there is/has been a very vocal segment of the market that has demanded high-fidelity models, and the manufacturers have been keen to exploit this segment as it offers high profit margins.

 

 

Still doesn't change the fact that if there was a huge market out there for 'basic' models then someone would have grabbed it by now.

 

That they haven't speaks volumes - though there is of course the problem that if anyone did then the potential exists for Hornby to rush out a 'spoiler' model thus eating into sales and reducing returns significantly*

 

* 'cheap' items are that because the manufacturer can realise volume of scale to drive down costs and generate huge sales volumes - not just because they may be inexpensive to produce.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

But what delivers the best return for the manufacturer and what the market want are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Yes, there is/has been a very vocal segment of the market that has demanded high-fidelity models, and the manufacturers have been keen to exploit this segment as it offers high profit margins.

 

But - do we really need sprung buffers on everything? Do models need to be "DCC Ready"? (At a rough estimate, approximately 50% of modellers would be perfectly happy buying locos that aren't - and a significant number of DCC modellers would have the skills to convert a loco which isn't). Do we really need manufacturers to design models with interchangeable parts so that they cover off every variation within a class of locos, when making a more generic model would reduce design and assembly costs? The fact we are having this discussion on a thread about generic carriages suggests that accuracy isn't the be all and end all some would say it is.

The whole point of assembly line production is that it's quicker and cheaper if everything is made the same.

 

If, for instance, somebody decided to do part of a production run minus the DCC socket/wiring, it probably wouldn't result in any price reduction, in fact, it might lead to both versions costing more.

 

John  

[PhilJ W]

Thats why many cars come with extras as standard. Air conditioning, power steering and electric windows are standard fittings nowadays which only a few years ago were (very expensive) extras.

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The bottom line is that if production was brought back from China to the UK they would cost at least five times as much as they do now.

Using OO Works, Peco, Fourdees etc. as examples this is probably an exaggeration.

[Colin_McLeod]

OO Works make just one version of a loco class, not multiple variations. The Irish J15 and UG locos that I purchased were not DCC ready and the level of detail was quaintly retro. The 'production run' is very limited.

 

The 'five times the price' estimate might be realistic enough if comparing like with like.

[Roy Langridge]

Just now, Colin_McLeod said:

OO Works make just one version of a loco class, not multiple variations. The Irish J15 and UG locos that I purchased were not DCC ready and the level of detail was quaintly retro. The 'production run' is very limited.

 

The 'five times the price' estimate might be realistic enough if comparing like with like.

The wage gap and cost of living comparing the UK and China is closing quite quickly. No longer are factory workers in China paid as poorly as they once were. 
 

It will be very interesting to see what the next 5-10 years brings as China tries to maintain an attractive industry whilst facing rising costs. 
 

It also has to be kept in mind that shipping costs are increasing significantly and manufacture closer to home (and I am not suggesting UK) may become more desirable. 
 

Roy

[RJS1977]

No, I wasn't intending to imply that the model manufacturers are driving around in Bentleys, just that economically it can be easier to recoup costs by selling a small volume at a high price. However that isn't necessarily what is best for the hobby in the long term.

 

Agreed, there are two many modellers who complain about the driver's seat being the wrong colour - and those modellers seriously need to get a life, because they are the vocal group who have been demanding ever higher levels of detail and pushing the prices up for everyone else - to the point at which people are being excluded from the hobby.

 

In terms of variations, I wasn't thinking so much of 26s/27s/33s, as much as large classes of locomotives such as certain types of pannier tanks or some industrial locos which remained in production for many years with minor detail differences over the duration of production, or changes made during the locos' lifetimes. Quite often these days manufacturers make models with interchangeable parts to cover off as many of those changes as possible, which means more parts have to be designed, and more labour is involved in assembly, for differences that the majority of modellers would neither notice nor care about.

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

The wage gap and cost of living comparing the UK and China is closing quite quickly. No longer are factory workers in China paid as poorly as they once were. 
 

It will be very interesting to see what the next 5-10 years brings as China tries to maintain an attractive industry whilst facing rising costs. 
 

It also has to be kept in mind that shipping costs are increasing significantly and manufacture closer to home (and I am not suggesting UK) may become more desirable. 
 

Roy

Though it is widely thought that the massive increase in shipping costs was almost entirely the result of the disruption caused by the Covid pandemic (or rather the way that was fought). Millions of empty containers ended up stranded at their destinations and that hasn't been fully cleared even now.

 

However, the expected gradual return to something close to the status quo ante has been further pushed back by the surge in fuel costs. 

 

As to model railway manufacture/assembly returning to the UK, the (excellent) OO Works models are produced in an artisan operation more akin to a batch assembly of kits than anything we would recognise as "mainstream" RTR.

 

I could envisage the emergence of something happening somewhere in the gap between that and RTR as it currently exists, but if it does, it will not match Chinese prices in the foreseeable future. 

 

If it does occur, my guess is that it will do so in O Gauge initially, and not trickle down into 4mm for at least a decade afterwards.

 

John 

[Bucoops]

I would love to see manufacturing return to the UK - not just models but all forms of engineering. I guess clean plentiful power would be a necessity first - air quality and all that.

 

But any return needs to be done carefully. I really thought and hoped the the Little Loco Company was going to make good progress on this, but it wasn't to be, sadly. 

[eldomtom2]

On 08/05/2022 at 23:54, Balgrayhill said:

Think of the costs involved in bringing back production to the UK, might save a bit on shipping, but nothing else.

That is an interesting response to actual evidence.

[Robin Brasher]

On 08/05/2022 at 22:54, Colin_McLeod said:

OO Works make just one version of a loco class, not multiple variations. The Irish J15 and UG locos that I purchased were not DCC ready and the level of detail was quaintly retro. The 'production run' is very limited.

 

The 'five times the price' estimate might be realistic enough if comparing like with like.

Peco track made in Devon is cheaper than Hornby track made in China. 

 

One disadvantage of making models in China is that there is a long time lag between announcing a model and producing it. During this time Hattons have still not produced the Genesis 4-6 wheel coaches that were announced a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

One disadvantage of making models in China is that there is a long time lag between announcing a model and producing it. During this time Hattons have still not produced the Genesis 4-6 wheel coaches that were announced a couple of years ago.

 

Hattons announced this range in October 2019. Detail design work on the models was largely complete by May 2020 - about two years ago. By that point the pandemic was taking its toll, vigorously; from that point there was, I suppose, still the tooling to make. When did we see the engineering prototypes? About a year ago? Detail of liveries for Batch 1 were still being refined round about January 2021. I think that considering the exceptional circumstances, a lead time of a little over three years from product announcement to the first batch being available will be pretty good going - compared to the lead time seen with models from some other RTR manufacturers.

 

On the other hand, it's clear that one can rush an RTR product to market via Chinese manufacture, if one is prepared to forego the stage of careful research, and are a large enough firm to have enough manufacturing slots to juggle with. (At least, that's how it appears from the outside.)

 

What will be truly remarkable to me will be if Hattons are able to stick to the announced pricing without making a considerable loss. If that was to deter them from further rolling stock ventures, it would be bad news for the hobby. But if that is the case, they will have been the victim of a succession of world events that could not have been anticipated in the autumn of 2019.

[woodenhead]

30 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Peco track made in Devon is cheaper than Hornby track made in China. 

 

One disadvantage of making models in China is that there is a long time lag between announcing a model and producing it. During this time Hattons have still not produced the Genesis 4-6 wheel coaches that were announced a couple of years ago.

The lead times for a model are the lead times, I don't think production in China is generally slower because of the distance - items of importance can be air freighted for review, people could (before Covid) visit the factories on a regular basis and of course there plenty of media methods to check on progress.

 

How long is the gestation for Peco Bullhead track, I'm not sure it is much shorter and how long did they resist the cries from it's customer for better sleeper spacing.

[Roy Langridge]

On 08/05/2022 at 23:54, Balgrayhill said:

Think of the costs involved in bringing back production to the UK, might save a bit on shipping, but nothing else.

 

Factory space would have to be procured at a huge cost, then the moulding/printing machines, then sourcing  the raw materials (and associated shipping from half-way round the world), sourcing the skilled staff to make the tools, operate the moulding machines, finish, assemble and pack the models (which Im sure wont be had at minimum wage), and a whole lot more.

 

I think 5 times the price is a very generous estimate, much nearer 7/8 times the price.

 

I don't disagree with any of your list of steps needed, however, it may not be that the likes of Hornby create their own facility, but as China becomes less attractive / more expensive we may start to see other companies make these facilities available outside of China.

Roy

Edited May 10, 2022 by Roy Langridge

[woodenhead]

26 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I don't disagree with any of your list of steps needed, however, it may not be that the likes of Hornby create their own facility, but as China becomes less attractive / more expansive we may start to see other companies make these facilities available outside of China.

Roy

But not in the UK - have you seen the price of energy these days and that's before you get into the cost of staff to fill your factory and sufficient work to keep it running.

 

Anyway, how has this Hattons thread turned into an onshoring manufacturing thread.

[ChrisN]

10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But not in the UK - have you seen the price of energy these days and that's before you get into the cost of staff to fill your factory and sufficient work to keep it running.

 

Anyway, how has this Hattons thread turned into an onshoring manufacturing thread.

 

Yes, we appear to have gone from Genesis to Exodus.

[Robin Brasher]

RM posts often go off topic.  

 

I think it might have been better if Hattons had announced their Genesis coaches when thy were about to be shipped from China. I admit that the lead time pales into insignificance compared with the lead time for the Bachmann Bulleid coaches, Kernow's LSWR brake van and Dapol's N gauge Bulleid light Pacifics.

 

The smoothest purchase I made recently was Bachmann's City of Truro.  This was announced when it was ready to be despatched so I saw it in a magazine.  Then i thought that the City of Truro did not run on the Swanage Railway that I am modelling. Next i thought the locomotive looked nice, I had enough money so I bought it.

 

That is how I would have liked my purchase of a set of Genesis LSWR coaches to go forward.

[woodenhead]

It was also a big lurch into the unknown, could you imagine the outcry if they had rocked up with several sets of pre-grouping 4 and 6 wheel coaches untested and unannounced - they could have fallen flat on their faces and been left with stock no-one was prepared to buy.  Making an announcement allowed them to test the market, get the nuances correct, pull in support and get people behind them.

 

Hornby have really only done theirs as a reaction to Hattons, Hattons will know how these have sold so perhaps have slowed their own production to that the market isn't flooded with generic coaches.

[Roy Langridge]

24 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But not in the UK - have you seen the price of energy these days and that's before you get into the cost of staff to fill your factory and sufficient work to keep it running.

 

Anyway, how has this Hattons thread turned into an onshoring manufacturing thread.

 

Exactly, which is why I was careful not to say in the UK, but outside China.

 

Roy

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I think it might have been better if Hattons had announced their Genesis coaches when thy were about to be shipped from China. 

 

If they had done so, they would not have benefitted from the advice of numerous people knowledgeable about late 19th-century carriage design, which has resulted in models that, whilst remaining generic, are at least credible - "prototype literate" - looking like something a carriage designer of the day would have produced. 

 

Whether anyone apart from those people offering their advice actually cares about that is another question! But one likes to feel that one has done something to make the world a better place.

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

Quote

Release Schedule Update

 

Updated: Tues 10th May 2022

 

We have had an update from our factory about our eagerly anticipated Genesis coaches.

 

Due to the high quality of the printing and the number of prints on each coach, it has taken longer than expected to complete this stage. We have worked as hard as possible to lessen the impact of this but we do not want to reduce the quality of the product at all. This has meant that the coaches will be delayed and will now leave the factory on the following dates...

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=594