'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[PhilJ W]

53 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

From notes read elsewhere and repeated earlier in this thread the SECR 4 wheel 3rd Hattons are going is a good representation of a SECR 4 wheel 2nd and the LBSCR 6 wheel composite lavatory is a good similarity to a LBSCR vehicle albeit wrongly numbered by Hattons.

I understand that Hattons deliberately numbered their generic coaches with numbers that did not correspond to any known coaches. Basically to avoid complaints that 'It looks nothing like the East and West Railway number 12345.'

[burgundy]

57 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

From notes read elsewhere and repeated earlier in this thread the SECR 4 wheel 3rd Hattons are going is a good representation of a SECR 4 wheel 2nd and the LBSCR 6 wheel composite lavatory is a good similarity to a LBSCR vehicle albeit wrongly numbered by Hattons.

There are detailed comparisons of the Hattons and Hornby carriages with genuine Brighton rolling stock in LB&SCR Modellers' DIgest 12 and LB&SCR Modellers' Digest 13 respectively. 

I hope that this helps. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

And alternate universes.

So in 1985, Back to the future discussed alternate realities, and if an in event in the future, unexpectedly goes back to the past, in order to rectify that, you need to return to a point intime even further back in order to modify it….

 

then 15 years later, someone invented virtual machines in IT, and by versioning of live images can provide  parallel dimensions in software which can all stem from a state in time event… and of course if it goes wrong in one dimension, you can go back in time, but also simply switch alternate realities on demand.

Simply put, Marty was a debugger, Biff was a bug in the code and the Doc was the developer…

On that note, I think we are way off topic..

Edited January 18, 2022 by adb968008

[Bucoops]

57 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So in 1985, Back to the future discussed alternate realities, and if an in event in the future, unexpectedly goes back to the past, in order to rectify that, you need to return to a point intime even further back in order to modify it….

 

then 15 years later, someone invented virtual machines in IT, and by versioning of live images can provide  parallel dimensions in software which can all stem from a state in time event… and of course if it goes wrong in one dimension, you can go back in time, but also simply switch alternate realities on demand.

Simply put, Marty was a debugger, Biff was a bug in the code and the Doc was the developer…

On that note, I think we are way off topic..

 

Having spent most of the weekend playing musical VMs after a very weird NIC failure I liked this  Nearly finished, only another 4.7TB of non-urgent junk to go over gigabit instead of 10Gbe.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I understand that Hattons deliberately numbered their generic coaches with numbers that did not correspond to any known coaches. Basically to avoid complaints that 'It looks nothing like the East and West Railway number 12345.'

 

That's not quite true. Somewhere upthread I posted a list of correspondences for the Midland carriages. Some were apt, others less so, by dint of the carriage in question not corresponding at all to a Midland prototype.

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's not quite true. Somewhere upthread I posted a list of correspondences for the Midland carriages. Some were apt, others less so, by dint of the carriage in question not corresponding at all to a Midland prototype.

They're generic coaches so they are unlikely to correspond with any prototype. Hattons have tried to avoid using the numbers used on similar stock.

[Nick Holliday]

12 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I understand that Hattons deliberately numbered their generic coaches with numbers that did not correspond to any known coaches. Basically to avoid complaints that 'It looks nothing like the East and West Railway number 12345.'

This may be true for the E&WR, but, as my article in the LBSCR Modellers' Digest demonstrated, apart from one or two errors, the numbers chosen by Hattons, in the first release of information at least, for the LBSC liveries, were applicable to a near-equivalent prototype.  Provided, of course, you can accept any differences in length or roof profile etc.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

They're generic coaches so they are unlikely to correspond with any prototype. Hattons have tried to avoid using the numbers used on similar stock.

 

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

This may be true for the E&WR, but, as my article in the LBSCR Modellers' Digest demonstrated, apart from one or two errors, the numbers chosen by Hattons, in the first release of information at least, for the LBSC liveries, were applicable to a near-equivalent prototype.  Provided, of course, you can accept any differences in length or roof profile etc.

 

As Nick confirms, Phil's statement is incorrect in certainly these two instances, so I'm curious as to the source of Phil's information.

 

I've tracked down the post in which I analysed Hattons' numbering of the Midland carriages:

... from which you will see that the numbers have mostly been taken from photographs in Lacy & Dow. The greatest deviation is for composites, where Hattons have used the numbers of bogie composites.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Compound2632

[turbos]

11 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

They're generic coaches so they are unlikely to correspond with any prototype. Hattons have tried to avoid using the numbers used on similar stock.

The Batch 2 BR Crimson 4 wheel coaches are based on the ‘Balerno Branch’ 4 wheel coaches, even using the correct numbers, but missing the First class coach. Although it’s stretching the ‘Generic’ credibility dressing up mid to late 1800s carriages as 1920s carriages.

 

Caley Coaches do etched brass kits of the CR Balerno Branch 4 wheelers if you want carriages that actually look like the Balerno Branch carriages. I’ve no links with Caley Coaches other than a satisfied customer.  https://caley.com/balerno.php
 

Brian. 

[drt7uk]

On 18/01/2022 at 11:28, Venator said:

 

I was tempted by some of Hornby's SR liveried coaches but on principle I decided not to buy them and stick with Hattons. I really don't like this tactic of Hornby of releasing products simply to ruin their competitors. Of course I'm sure it happens occasionally that genuinely two or more manufacturers decide to do the same model, but Hornby seem to be going out of their way to release competing products which I'm sure they wouldn't have otherwise released. I used to really like Hornby as a company but things like the 4wheel coaches and the Titfield Thunderbolt saga have dented my view of them.

 

Yeah I was conflicted too. Impatience got the better of me but I'm still sticking with my original Hattons order too so they'll still get my money. And probably Rapido too with their Lion once I've decided which livery I prefer!

[JohnR]

20 hours ago, turbos said:

The Batch 2 BR Crimson 4 wheel coaches are based on the ‘Balerno Branch’ 4 wheel coaches, even using the correct numbers, but missing the First class coach. Although it’s stretching the ‘Generic’ credibility dressing up mid to late 1800s carriages as 1920s carriages.

 

Caley Coaches do etched brass kits of the CR Balerno Branch 4 wheelers if you want carriages that actually look like the Balerno Branch carriages. I’ve no links with Caley Coaches other than a satisfied customer.  https://caley.com/balerno.php
 

Brian. 

 

And yet, I am looking forward to buying a set of those very same coaches! I'm probably the target market for these coaches - a modellers who wants something that "looks right" but isnt a rivet counter. 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

And yet, I am looking forward to buying a set of those very same coaches! I'm probably the target market for these coaches - a modellers who wants something that "looks right" but isnt a rivet counter. 

 

The number of people who would pull you up at an exhibition for having the wrong numbers on your carriages is very small; for most pre-grouping companies could probably be counted on the thumbs of one hand. You'd have to be really unlucky - wrong place, wrong time. So my advice would be, don't exhibit in Glasgow...

 

[JohnR]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The number of people who would pull you up at an exhibition for having the wrong numbers on your carriages is very small; for most pre-grouping companies could probably be counted on the thumbs of one hand. You'd have to be really unlucky - wrong place, wrong time. So my advice would be, don't exhibit in Glasgow...

 

 

Thats ok, the chances of me exhibiting at Model Rail Scotland are vanishingly slim.

 

But seriously, the photos I've seen of the Balerno coaches are old, poor quality, and I personally would be hard pressed to SEE the difference. Compare them to a drawing, and thats different, obviously - but compared to how they look in photographs, they're fine by me.

[turbos]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

Thats ok, the chances of me exhibiting at Model Rail Scotland are vanishingly slim.

 

But seriously, the photos I've seen of the Balerno coaches are old, poor quality, and I personally would be hard pressed to SEE the difference. Compare them to a drawing, and thats different, obviously - but compared to how they look in photographs, they're fine by me.

All model trains are for our enjoyment, if they tick that box then that is what matters.

 

My main grumbles about the BR Crimson 4 wheelers are that Hattons claim they worked on the Balerno branch in BR livery even though it closed to passengers in 1943! They remained in use on other Edinburgh suburban services until withdrawal around 1951.

There are many beautiful pre-grouping Liveries that have never been made and was supposed to be the purpose of the ‘Genesis’ coaches but Hattons decide to use their finite production to make a short lived, incomplete, numerically small and only used in a very small geographic area 4 wheel coach livery. Only one rake is believed to have received this livery a couple of years before withdrawal. 

I would have preferred to see BR Crimson in Batch 4 or 5 to help fill any production gaps.

A few pictures and notes of Balerno Branch coaches here https://caley.com/assets/pdfs/balernoPn.pdf
 

Brian.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, turbos said:

 

There are many beautiful pre-grouping Liveries that have never been made and was supposed to be the purpose of the ‘Genesis’ coaches but Hattons decide to use their finite production to make a short lived, incomplete, numerically small and only used in a very small geographic area 4 wheel coach livery. Only one rake is believed to have received this livery a couple of years before withdrawal. 

I would have preferred to see BR Crimson in Batch 4 or 5 to help fill any production gaps

 

Whilst I agree, I can see that it makes commercial sense to give priority to BR and the Big Four liveries as the market is bound to be larger.

Depending on whether the first few pre-group liveries sell poorly, they can always take the decision to pull the later ones.  They probably have a good idea already though from pre-orders.

[Venator]

On 18/01/2022 at 13:30, PhilJ W said:

Hornby produce some excellent products and I do not intend to deprive myself of them just because I disapprove of some of their business practices.

That is entirely your choice and nobody is suggesting you must do so.

 

On 18/01/2022 at 13:04, woodenhead said:

Wish I hadn't said anything now.

 

I only brought this up because it seems daft to boycott an option simply because it is a Hornby product.

I would say its more daft to boycott something because it's 0.0000001mm out of scale or the shade of colour is slightly too light / dark / not my interpretation. However those who have those opinions are just exercising consumer rights not to purchase something that isn't right for them.

 

Note I did not say I was boycotting all Hornby products, merely their 4 wheel coaches. However I wouldn't consider my view on this matter de fide so I don't mind if people disagree with me.

[Dragonfly]

One detail I feel I should correct, is that we are not depriving themselves of a product. We are choosing to wait longer for the product to be produced by Hattons rather than Hornby. We will still get the product (and a better product too, in this case), but instead from a manufacturer who didn't resort to the seemingly underhand tactics we have issue with. We don't lose out on anything, so not sure how that qualifies as depriving ourselves.

[RichardT]

On 18/01/2022 at 21:32, Bucoops said:

Having spent most of the weekend playing musical VMs after a very weird NIC failure I liked this  Nearly finished, only another 4.7TB of non-urgent junk to go over gigabit instead of 10Gbe.

Sorry Bucoops, no idea what most of those words mean! OMG, I’m officially old…

 

Klaatu barada nikto 

Richard

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

Sorry Bucoops, no idea what most of those words mean! OMG, I’m officially old…

 

Klaatu barada nikto 

Richard

 

That's OK, nor do I

[GWR-fan]

6 hours ago, RichardT said:

....................Klaatu barada nikto......................... 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaatu_barada_nikto

 

[MarkC]

Well, having gone through this thread, I've put in a preorder for a set of pre-war LNER livery 6-wheelers. One thing that does leap out, though, is how big the gap is between the vehicles when using the tension lock couplings. They'll be replaced, probably with Wright Couplings in the rake & screw couplings at the ends.

 

Then wait for the NER livery ones...

 

Mark

[Compound2632]

I see that "Batch 1" are now advertised for delivery this August / September.

 

Meanwhile, someone with a time machine that works in both forward and reverse gear has got hold of one of the GNR-livered 4-wheel thirds:

 

 

This is a crop from this rather splendid photo:

 

 

[Tony Hisgett from Birmingham, UK, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; embedded link.]

[Legend]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I see that "Batch 1" are now advertised for delivery this August / September.

 

Meanwhile, someone with a time machine that works in both forward and reverse gear has got hold of one of the GNR-livered 4-wheel thirds:

 

 

This is a crop from this rather splendid photo:

 

 

[Tony Hisgett from Birmingham, UK, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; embedded link.]

 

Thats a further slippage then. I'm LMS , so in batch 2  which I think was supposed to be late summer . I wonder if thats slipping into 2023 now . 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Legend said:

Thats a further slippage then. I'm LMS , so in batch 2  which I think was supposed to be late summer . I wonder if thats slipping into 2023 now . 

 

Slippage is hardly surprising considering the difficulties world trade has been labouring under for the last couple of years - shortage of shipping being one of the less obvious issues. Late arrival of model railway carriages has to be one of the least of our worries!

[Legend]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Slippage is hardly surprising considering the difficulties world trade has been labouring under for the last couple of years - shortage of shipping being one of the less obvious issues. Late arrival of model railway carriages has to be one of the least of our worries!

 

Very true.  No ones going to die . But I think we had samples of these a year ago now , and painted samples which prompted my order for LMS ones last summer .  Even though we all know about delays , covid, power rationing etc , this does seem to be taking an inordinately long time .

Edited April 25, 2022 by Legend
Cant spell !