'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[SteamingWales]

On the subject of delivery dates an update has just been posted to the project page. Also check your emails as this is how I found out

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=594

 

A quick summary. Basic liveries are first to arrive (GWR/Departmental) in Sept 2022, rest following on in various months

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, jafcreasey said:

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/article?id=594

 

Ooh! Can I borrow that machine?

[Hattons Dave]

Hi everyone,

 

As some of you have noticed we have provided a new delivery schedule for our first batch of Genesis coaches. We do apologise for this delay and rest assured we are doing everything we can to get the coaches into stock as quickly as possible while maintaining the high standards for our products.

 

Due to the high quality of the printing and the number of prints on each coach, it has taken longer than expected to complete this stage. We have worked as hard as possible to lessen the impact of this but we do not want to reduce the quality of the product at all.

 

You can see the full rundown of dates here: https://bit.ly/3MYBI5k

 

We have also included a short clip of the printing machine in action!

 

Thanks,
Dave

[Bishdurham]

On 08/05/2022 at 17:36, phil-b259 said:

 

Still doesn't change the fact that if there was a huge market out there for 'basic' models then someone would have grabbed it by now.

 

That they haven't speaks volumes - though there is of course the problem that if anyone did then the potential exists for Hornby to rush out a 'spoiler' model thus eating into sales and reducing returns significantly*

 

* 'cheap' items are that because the manufacturer can realise volume of scale to drive down costs and generate huge sales volumes - not just because they may be inexpensive to produce.

Think what may be missed is that there is not a huge market out there!  There are other ways to make money which doesn't involve dealing with people who want  a model  railway.  I am an agent for a company in the US which manufactures most of its products at home.  When I go to local shows I find that although the few people who come through the door are interested, the majority don't want to pay for the quality when they can buy cheap second hand imports from China.    From what I can judge, there is a small number of people who have both the funds and desire to buy high quality items .  There are others not so fortunate, but not enough of them that manufacturers think it is worthwhile to look for their business.

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Bishdurham said:

I am an agent for a company in the US which manufactures most of its products at home.  When I go to local shows I find that although the few people who come through the door are interested, the majority don't want to pay for the quality when they can buy cheap second hand imports from China.    From what I can judge, there is a small number of people who have both the funds and desire to buy high quality items .  There are others not so fortunate, but not enough of them that manufacturers think it is worthwhile to look for their business.

 

Think of these models as being in the same general bracket as tiaras. (What? isn't your significant other wearing that tiara you bought them as an anniversary present when they present you with the loco model they've bought you for your birthday?) You can have a really high quality one for upwards of £24,000 or cheap tat for a few quid. If you're a specialist manufacturer with a discerning customer base, you're not going to be producing for the children's parties end of the market.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Compound2632

[adb968008]

Thats a very state of the art tampo printing machine.

I remember the days of each print being applied by a manual operator who had to align and load the machine one colour/ oneside at a time.

This ones older but can do several in one pass

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

RM posts often go off topic.  

 

I think it might have been better if Hattons had announced their Genesis coaches when thy were about to be shipped from China. I admit that the lead time pales into insignificance compared with the lead time for the Bachmann Bulleid coaches, Kernow's LSWR brake van and Dapol's N gauge Bulleid light Pacifics.

 

The smoothest purchase I made recently was Bachmann's City of Truro.  This was announced when it was ready to be despatched so I saw it in a magazine.  Then i thought that the City of Truro did not run on the Swanage Railway that I am modelling. Next i thought the locomotive looked nice, I had enough money so I bought it.

 

That is how I would have liked my purchase of a set of Genesis LSWR coaches to go forward.

 

If they had, do you think you would have seen them made at all?

 

It's obvious that Hornby were already doing their "LBSCR" style version* and they were nearly ready to go as they were in the shops soon after.

 

It would have been a bit pointless to make another range of models when something similar was already available. 

 

But now you've got a choice, and you can mix and match. So sometimes it is beneficial to announce early.

 

 

*Personally I would have preferred accurate LBSCR coaches. Hornby's loss will be Roxey's gain.

 

 

 

Jason

[Roy Langridge]

18 minutes ago, Balgrayhill said:

What evidence is there that setting up a manufacturing facility in the UK is cheaper than using established facilities in China?

 

I am not sure that anybody has actually presented evidence one way or another. But here are some facts that may surprise some people:

• Factory space in some areas in China is more expensive than some areas of the UK. Manufacturing in China is very localised and property in those areas carries a premium.
• Cost of living in China about 1/3 lower than the UK.
• Wages for typical factory workers are about 30% of those in the UK. 
• Chinese workers get paid leave on a sliding scale depending on length of service, starting at 5 days a year (0.10 years) and rising to 15 days a year (20+ years).
• China is the worlds biggest consumer of crude oil and imports most of it. Paid for in US$, it is getting very expensive and pushing Chinese prices up. (i.e. Energy prices rises are not constrained to the UK).

Roy

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

RM posts often go off topic.  

 

I think it might have been better if Hattons had announced their Genesis coaches when thy were about to be shipped from China. I admit that the lead time pales into insignificance compared with the lead time for the Bachmann Bulleid coaches, Kernow's LSWR brake van and Dapol's N gauge Bulleid light Pacifics.

 

The smoothest purchase I made recently was Bachmann's City of Truro.  This was announced when it was ready to be despatched so I saw it in a magazine.  Then i thought that the City of Truro did not run on the Swanage Railway that I am modelling. Next i thought the locomotive looked nice, I had enough money so I bought it.

 

That is how I would have liked my purchase of a set of Genesis LSWR coaches to go forward.

 

If Hatton's had held back from announcing their 4- and 6-wheeled coaches until they were ready to ship, you'd never have seen any other than LBSCR ones from Hornby!

 

John

 

 

[Crantock]

I think that whilst the last delay was disappointing this was expected. Life’s a mess.  If China fouls up big time on Covid it could slip further but some 9 coaches being late is the least of my worries.  
 

Inflation and capital tied up must be a worry for Hattons.  They have my sympathy.  

[Graham_Muz]

Wibble Bingo.. full house.. 

 

smoke, mirrors, unsubstantiated, armchair, repetition, nonsensical, incomparable, unfinanced, wibble 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Graham_Muz

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

If Hatton's had held back from announcing their 4- and 6-wheeled coaches until they were ready to ship, you'd never have seen any other than LBSCR ones from Hornby!

 

John

 

 

Maybe that would have been a blessing......😉

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

If they had, do you think you would have seen them made at all?

 

It's obvious that Hornby were already doing their "LBSCR" style version* and they were nearly ready to go as they were in the shops soon after.

 

It would have been a bit pointless to make another range of models when something similar was already available. 

 

But now you've got a choice, and you can mix and match. So sometimes it is beneficial to announce early.

 

 

*Personally I would have preferred accurate LBSCR coaches. Hornby's loss will be Roxey's gain.

 

 

 

Jason

Do you seriously think that Hornby would have done what they did if Hatton's hadn't announced theirs?

 

Maybe a pair of (more accurate) LBSCR 4-wheelers to go with the Terriers, but nothing else. The rest of them are clearly derived from a LBSCR base rather than being in any way "generic".

 

John

Edited May 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

You can have a really high quality one for upwards of £24,000 or cheap tat for a few quid. 

 

I really shouldn't have said that. Now all I'm getting is adverts for jewellery that is totaly out of my price range (at the David Morris end, that is). Oddly, not for the cheap plastic stuff. 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Do you seriously think that Hornby would have done what they did if Hatton's hadn't announced theirs?

 

Maybe a pair of (more accurate) LBSCR 4-wheelers to go with the Terriers, but nothing else. The rest of them are clearly derived from a LBSCR base rather than being in any way "generic".

 

John

 

 

It's quite obvious Hornby were planning on doing them in many liveries from the start. If they had planned on making accurate, fully detailed LBSCR carriages for the Terrier, then why didn't they?

 

They are more modern versions of the dear old S&DJR coach and I expect they have replaced it in the range. 

 

Don't forget at the time there was a massive demand for coaches in pre grouping liveries from some quarters. 

 

Coincidence that Hornby and Hattons both decided to do them? Yes. I honesty think so. 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

It's quite obvious Hornby were planning on doing them in many liveries from the start. If they had planned on making accurate, fully detailed LBSCR carriages for the Terrier, then why didn't they?

 

They are more modern versions of the dear old S&DJR coach and I expect they have replaced it in the range. 

 

Don't forget at the time there was a massive demand for coaches in pre grouping liveries from some quarters. 

 

Coincidence that Hornby and Hattons both decided to do them? Yes. I honesty think so. 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

I'm equally convinced that Hornby were originally intending to produce fully detailed LBSCR coaches, and possibly more basic versions for the Thomas range, assuming the decision had not already been taken to relinquish the licence.

 

Development of those was then diverted to produce the "generic" range to meet the "threat" perceived in the  Hatton's announcement. It might also have been influenced by the effect of the "Thomas" decision on the sales potential of any simplified versions under development when it was taken.

 

Hornby's coaches are just "too Brighton" to have been conceived as generic from the start, IMHO, but I doubt we'll ever know the full story.....

 

John

Edited May 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

Wibble Bingo.. full house.. 

 

smoke, mirrors, unsubstantiated, armchair, repetition, nonsensical, incomparable, unfinanced, wibble 

 

Your take on the situation as an informed industry insider would be interesting and perhaps help dampen down the repetitive unsubstantiated armchair "wibble".

[Graham_Muz]

37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Your take on the situation as an informed industry insider would be interesting and perhaps help dampen down the repetitive unsubstantiated armchair "wibble".

 

I wouldn't want to dilute my memoirs...

[Graham_Muz]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'm equally convinced that Hornby were originally intending to produce fully detailed LBSCR coaches, and possibly more basic versions for the Thomas range, assuming the decision had not already been taken to relinquish the licence.

 

Development of those was then diverted to produce the "generic" range to meet the "threat" perceived in the  Hatton's announcement. It might also have been influenced by the effect of the "Thomas" decision on the sales potential of any simplified versions under development when it was taken.

 

Hornby's coaches are just "too Brighton" to have been conceived as generic from the start, IMHO, but I doubt we'll ever know the full story.....

 

John

 

This is certainty pretty much my understanding although, giving a benefit of doubt, not so much due to a 'threat' but a potentially seeing a greater 'opportunity'. Although a further opportunity could be considered missed to produce an accurate model as part of the process.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

I wouldn't want to dilute my memoirs...

 

Ah, well, perhaps save gratuitous abuse of other posters for then.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Your take on the situation as an informed industry insider would be interesting and perhaps help dampen down the repetitive unsubstantiated armchair "wibble".

its interesting in that several posters ask for “railroad-esque” ranges. (I too think there is some merit in it), but I dont think those interested to buy it frequent these pages, and those in power to make it fully understand the desire (other than cheap).

 

However behind every business is money.

lets compare a 66… Hattons and Hornby…

 

It has a tooling of a similar size and costs probably similar amounts to make, store and use that tooling. The paint masks of a either 66 in the exact same livery would be probably be the same. it takes space in a container, warehousing, postage.

 

So whats the difference between a Hattons 66 and Hornby 66..?

 

probably the assembly time of those extra bits on the sprue, and some minimal savings of electronics and a lump of metal weight. That makes one a fantastic level of detail and the other a basic model.

 

However that difference is the difference between £60 and £160. More importantly 30% of £60 is £18,

30% of £160 is £48.

 

now your a business, you want to make a new class 99….

 

for very similar factory costs above, similar sunk costs on tooling, plus logistics and shipping, which one is better for your investment considering the market size is fairly static for that model regardless either route you chose ?

 

thats my opinion why we dont see new railroad, even if it might be a good idea for lower consumer costs, it doesnt seem to me to be good business ?

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

its interesting in that several posters ask for “railroad-esque” ranges. (I too think there is some merit in it), but I dont think those interested to buy it frequent these pages, and those in power to make it fully understand the desire (other than cheap).

 

However behind every business is money.

lets compare a 66… Hattons and Hornby…

 

It has a tooling of a similar size and costs probably similar amounts to make, store and use that tooling. The paint masks of a either 66 in the exact same livery would be probably be the same. it takes space in a container, warehousing, postage.

 

So whats the difference between a Hattons 66 and Hornby 66..?

 

probably the assembly time of those extra bits on the sprue, and some minimal savings of electronics and a lump of metal weight. That makes one a fantastic level of detail and the other a basic model.

 

However that difference is the difference between £60 and £160. More importantly 30% of £60 is £18,

30% of £160 is £48.

 

now your a business, you want to make a new class 99….

 

for very similar factory costs above, similar sunk costs on tooling, plus logistics and shipping, which one is better for your investment considering the market size is fairly static for that model regardless either route you chose ?

 

thats my opinion why we dont see new railroad, even if it might be a good idea for lower consumer costs, it doesnt seem to me to be good business ?

 

Some interesting points, but your figures can also be used to support doing Railroad:

 

If we set our profit at the 30% level and make a 1000 models, I am investing £42,000 to get a return of £18,000 on the Railroad models. To make and sell a 1000 of the full-spec models I have to invest £112,000 to get £48,000 back. Capital employed is big ting, especially if you are having to borrow that money.

 

Now, the railroad models are going to be quicker to produce as there is much less detail, simpler printing, simpler lighting, and I can get those to the marker earlier, bringing an earlier return on my investment. Also, for the same investment I can have more than one Railroad model on the go at once, potentially bringing multiple sales (think collector market) that a single high-spec model will not.

 

This gives the potential for Railroad to be better where cashflow is tight or you are borrowing money to fund production. 

 

So many ways to do it. And that is before we start talking about Railroad being a strategy to get people involved in the hobby who then migrating to full-spec models.

 

Who would want to be in this business!

 

Roy

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

30 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Some interesting points, but your figures can also be used to support doing Railroad:

 

If we set our profit at the 30% level and make a 1000 models, I am investing £42,000 to get a return of £18,000 on the Railroad models. To make and sell a 1000 of the full-spec models I have to invest £112,000 to get £48,000 back. Capital employed is big ting, especially if you are having to borrow that money.

 

Now, the railroad models are going to be quicker to produce as there is much less detail, simpler printing, simpler lighting, and I can get those to the marker earlier, bringing an earlier return on my investment. Also, for the same investment I can have more than one Railroad model on the go at once, potentially bringing multiple sales (think collector market) that a single high-spec model will not.

 

This gives the potential for Railroad to be better where cashflow is tight or you are borrowing money to fund production. 

 

So many ways to do it. And that is before we start talking about Railroad being a strategy to get people involved in the hobby who then migrating to full-spec models.

 

Who would want to be in this business!

 

Roy

 

 

Thing is, though, if you can only fund/obtain a finite amount of production capacity, it is pretty much inevitable that it will be used to turn out the most remunerative products. 

 

I suspect that doesn't (usually) mean Railroad. and those who want models of that kind may be fortunate in seeing the quantities that they do.

 

When it comes down to realising the budgeted return on capital, how long it takes the product to sell through is also important. Railroad is (with very few exceptions), a way of obtaining further income from obsolete items that have sold in big numbers before.

 

Intuitively, it should take much longer to sell 1,000 of a Railroad loco than it will a similar quantity of something that has never previously been available. Beyond the absolute R-number-completists do collectors buy Railroad anyway?

 

There is also an image issue. Hornby want to be seen to be as innovators at the forefront of the industry. If Railroad formed too great a part of the business, there's a danger of it becoming regarded as a "throwback", "just for kids" (or beginners) and something to be "moved on from".    

 

John

Edited May 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Intuitively, it should take much longer to sell 1,000 of a Railroad loco than it will a similar quantity of something that has never previously been available. Beyond the absolute R-number-completists do collectors buy Railroad anyway?

I think this is where Hornby has been right on the mark here.

 

The railroad 66 (and recent 47’s) have been very successful, more than 30 produced and mostly sold out. The reason for success isnt to be found on these pages, but more likely the secondary/college/university school playgrounds and more relevant the recent graduates laptop. What Hornby did is reproduce Limas sales strategy from the 1990’s.. Forgoe accuracy for a good paint job at a price that appeals to a modern younger audience, and relevance.

 

Its noteworthy Hornby reintroduced the railroad 67 (and a gbrf 73), they are growing, not shrinking this market, and they are alone in it.

Until recently Heljan occupied this niche of “railroad plus”.. with prices at the lower end of the “detailed” spectrum, but detail/livery above the basic level.

 

Accuracy isnt everything, price matters to a group of enthusiasts, to understand this mentality, forget your mortgage free home with a nice pretty layout, and wind back your clock to the 1990’s or late 60’s, when you had no girlfriend, no mortgage, no kids but just got your first paid jobs after school… the hobby still means something, you still have close mates who you hang out with at galas, opendays or just the platform end, you dont read rmweb but you do read gen/facebook/instagram groups telling you whats moving where…

 

thats who this is appealing to.

I’m not debating the benefits of new toolings to serve these groups (as the business logic for not tooling it was in my above post), however I do think for modern EMUs cutting down to the basics ( a good body designed for after-market fitting of such gadgets, crucially with a good paint job) designed in such a way that 15-20 years from now (or sooner should competition try to nibble the success), you could switch to rtr those gadgets without a full retool, then you could be onto something… that was the mistake Lima made.. they didnt future proof their toolings so upgrading wasnt possible cheaply and competitors ate their dinner. Vitrains probably called it right and learned from this, but they had 2x competition, and from China at 2000’s rates…if they’d moved to China the new Bachmann 47 may not yet have been here.
 

For EMUs this i see is the only future as right now they are priced over the horizon even for the mature well funded collectors to buy in qty, and they are the wrong demographic for modern units anyway… I suspect the new 755 may fall down in this regard, possibly (imo)to  misguided cries of “I told you so”.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

Bang on the money, I would concede, but by accident or design?

 

Would Hornby have even bothered had not Hatton's been waving a big scary stick marked "Class 66" which thoroughly put the wind up both them and our other long-established producer?

 

Hornby simply saw an opportunity to attack their main competitor cheaply whilst somebody else was doing so from the other end.

 

John