New tooling - BR Standard 2MT 2-6-0 2MT 78xxx

[stewartingram]

I too want one of these - I remember 78021 being a regular on the Cambridge-Kettering when we moved to Cambridge in 1959.

But do I still want it? Not sure. The price has risen dramatically, and my Bachmann/Crownline/Judith Edge mongrel is just about finished  - and I built it.....

[SteamingWales]

I note the product images for the 2nd batch have been updated to actual models Vs CAD renders

 

Looking good if you ask me. Plenty more photos of this over on Hornby website as well as BR Black version 

[Ian Hargrave]

Right now Hornby could do with the boost of a newly tooled release.Having already seen pre production samples (Last October at GETS with the now departed Simon Kohler ) this little beast should do the job in some style.

[Quarryscapes]

They do look rather tasty, Will we actually see them this year? October reckoned by Hattons so may get my pre-ordered-since-announcement  78000 in time for my birthday! 

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Right now Hornby could do with the boost of a newly tooled release.Having already seen pre production samples (Last October at GETS with the now departed Simon Kohler ) this little beast should do the job in some style.

 

Cannot disagree with that Ian. One of those would look really nice alongside my Ivatt 46521. I can only blame the obsession with TT:120 which has caused the delay to production and to market  

[HExpressD]

47 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Cannot disagree with that Ian. One of those would look really nice alongside my Ivatt 46521. I can only blame the obsession with TT:120 which has caused the delay to production and to market  

The 2MT is being made in a completely different factory to anything TT...

[Hilux5972]

Hattons post on Facebook. 

[MrTea]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

Hattons post on Facebook. 

Those look nice 👌

 

Does this mean Hattons and Hornby are friends again? I’ve had a couple of emails from Hattons about decorates samples from of new Hornby models recently. Good news if they are. 

[Paul_sterling]

2 minutes ago, MrTea said:

Those look nice 👌

 

Does this mean Hattons and Hornby are friends again? I’ve had a couple of emails from Hattons about decorates samples from of new Hornby models recently. Good news if they are. 

They didn't fall out. It was the other manufacturer that things went sour with. 

[Paul.Uni]

2 minutes ago, Paul_sterling said:

They didn't fall out. It was the other manufacturer that things went sour with. 

When the Hornby tier system was introduced, Hattons were put into Tier 3. As a result a lot of pre-orders were cancelled.

 

Hattons have since been moved to at least tier 2.

[Covkid]

On 27/06/2023 at 14:08, Covkid said:

Cannot disagree with that Ian. One of those would look really nice alongside my Ivatt 46521. I can only blame the obsession with TT:120 which has caused the delay to production and to market  

 

On 27/06/2023 at 14:57, HExpressD said:

The 2MT is being made in a completely different factory to anything TT...

 

So perhaps the delay to the project has been at the Margate end of the chain ? 

Are there enough Hornby people in Margate to keep all the many plates spinning ? 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Covkid

[Ian Hargrave]

17 hours ago, MrTea said:

Those look nice 👌

 

Does this mean Hattons and Hornby are friends again? I’ve had a couple of emails from Hattons about decorates samples from of new Hornby models recently. Good news if they are. 

There hasn’t been a terminal dispute between the two parties. Historically,Bachmann and Hattons don’t do business but not Hornby. Rails broke off a trading association with Hornby in 2020 on the other hand but continue with Bachmann and others. 

[MikeParkin65]

20 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Hattons post on Facebook. 

Agree with @MrTea that these 'look nice' but also think they look expensive compared to the imminent @Accurascale Manor

[Ian Hargrave]

Well it is what it is and highlights the difference in structure & procedures of each company. But good to know Hornby are still capable of some good stuff nonetheless. Expensive…yes but if you really think about it we are spoiled.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Agree with @MrTea that these 'look nice' but also think they look expensive compared to the imminent @Accurascale Manor

Almost inevitable I reckon.  Hornby is a much larger company than Accurascale so the 'contribution' (to the bottom line) from each sale of a similar product will have to be greater - so it will cost more.

[adb968008]

The 2MT definitely puts up a strong contender to be model of the year for steam this year.

 

Having seen these EPs a few times it promises to be a fantastic model…. If only they were all like this.

[jimwal]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

The 2MT definitely puts up a strong contender to be model of the year for steam this year.

 

Having seen these EPs a few times it promises to be a fantastic model…. If only they were all like this.

 

 

 

We had better wait until they actually arrive in our hands before the accolades are considered.....

[Johan DC]

8 hours ago, jimwal said:

 

 

 

We had better wait until they actually arrive in our hands before the accolades are considered.....

Well, it's a nice change from trashing models before they hit the shops. 😉

[Covkid]

On 29/06/2023 at 21:29, adb968008 said:

The 2MT definitely puts up a strong contender to be model of the year for steam this year.

 

Having seen these EPs a few times it promises to be a fantastic model…. If only they were all like this.

 

Really ?  The latest images of the Accurascale Manor are absolutely stunning in my opinion.

[SteamingWales]

15 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Really ?  The latest images of the Accurascale Manor are absolutely stunning in my opinion.

 

Agreed. It will be Accurascale Manor in 1st 🥇 and then all the other manufacturers battling for the other podium spots 🥈🥉

 

I can see the Rapido 15xx being a dark horse for 2nd

[Johan DC]

So, in two posts we go from 'we beter wait till they arrive' to 'the AS Manor will be nr1'...  😄

Anyway, the new Engine Shed can shed some light about what's comming (pun intended):

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/all-aboard-br-standard-class-2mt-loco

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

On 29/06/2023 at 11:38, The Stationmaster said:

Almost inevitable I reckon.  Hornby is a much larger company than Accurascale so the 'contribution' (to the bottom line) from each sale of a similar product will have to be greater - so it will cost more.

 

For "much larger company" read "top heavy conglomerate" ?

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

For "much larger company" read "top heavy conglomerate" ?

 

They do have six directors and  they're certainly expensive in relation to revenue.  In the latest accounts the Board, including non-exec members and with only a part year figure for Raeburn, cost the company £1,357 million.   Looking at the £1.357 million that means that in excess of 2% of revenue went on payments, various, to Directors.  I know nothing about such things but it does seem a significant percentage for a company generating  only £55 million.  And I do wonder why they need a remuneration committee which is really 'boh company' stuff wherea simple payments by results system  (as at Bachmann Europe) strikes me as more appropriate.  

 

Bachmann's director costs (paid only to one person)  totalled £125,000 on revenue of £17.9 million  so considerably less than 1% of turnover.    Comparing turnover of the two strictly on results per head Hornby would only need 4 directors instead of six

 

Peco on a turnover of £7.8 million in their most recent accounts have four directors and show their total remuneration as £132,000 (which appears to exclude pension contributions for the three who are in the pension scheme) so there  in excess of 1.5% of turnover is going to directors remuneration.   Judging by teh pension contributions it suggests that only three of thse directors may be deeply involved?

 

Nobody else, except hattons, reports their turnover in their accounts and nobody else (including Hattons) separately listsdirector's remuneration.  But of what we do know Hornby's directorate is expensive in relation to its turnover and, of the three, Bachmann's is the least expensive. 

[Guest]

Are the differences not due to Hornby being a listed company and Bachmann being a division of Kader? I’m happy to be corrected but isn’t a remuneration committee a requirement under UK corporate governance rules to ensure that directors can’t just award themselves a pay rise and thus ensures shareholders’ interests are served.

The greater overhead of being a public listed company is thus in some way unavoidable. Bachmann presumably reports to its Kader parent company in China and they will have different structure, being privately owned.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Are the differences not due to Hornby being a listed company and Bachmann being a division of Kader? I’m happy to be corrected but isn’t a remuneration committee a requirement under UK corporate governance rules to ensure that directors can’t just award themselves a pay rise and thus ensures shareholders’ interests are served.

The greater overhead of being a public listed company is thus in some way unavoidable. Bachmann presumably reports to its Kader parent company in China and they will have different structure, being privately owned.

Bachmann is a Public limited company registered in Great Britain although 2 of its 3 directors are directors of the parent company which is effectively the sole owner of Bachmann Europe shares - they draw no salary etc from Bachmann Europe and that is mentioned in the accounts.  The company has to comply with exactly the same legislation, other requirements, and taxation. regimes as Hornby and has to produce audited accounts. to a similar level of accuracy etc.

 

So Bachmann Europe is a company iin its own right and is legally no different from Hornby.   And don't forget that almost 90% of Hornby's issued shares are in the hands of just two shareholders so not much different in that respect from a single shareholder owning what amounts to 100% of Bachmann Europe's shares..   And while it is owned by Kader Group it is not a division of that company but a wholly owned, foreign registered, subsidiary. and it is noted in that way in Kader's accounts and is not included in the accounts for the various divisions of Kader's business.

 

Remuneration committees are a part of good corporate governance practice and the way it which they should work is spelt out in the Corporate Governance Code.   But their si nothing to stop shareholders imposing a system of pay relating entirely to performance measures and in that even there would be no need fora remuneration committee.  However doing that depends on shareholders reaching a majority decision and they might not wish to bother with it.   The idea of the code is to stop directors deciding their own pay and perks where there is alack f strong shareholder control.