New tooling - BR Standard 2MT 2-6-0 2MT 78xxx

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

the majority of other manufactures have suffered delays in the supply chain for reasons well documented elsewhere but for whatever reason, Hornby seem to suffer more that most

 

There are several aspects of this though.

 

1. Are Hornbys delays worse than others? Most stuff seems to take 2-3 years from announcement (if announced fairly early on).

2. Some of the "delays" will be cash flow management. They might complete a design but not commit to the tooling immediately if they have had a load of it come at once/they are waiting for a big chunk of stock to land that is already paid for. Ultimately that is their decision, they don't owe us anything in terms of a delivery date.

3. Whilst there are only so many factories doing this sort of work, the manufacturers won't necessarily use the same ones as each other, or use the same one for everything.

[Porcy Mane]

14 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

There are several aspects of this though.

 

Agree with all of that but why the communication errors. "Goods are here" then are not.

 

Rapido were very up front about the delays to one of their products when a  pallet accidentally fell of the back of wagon. Their honesty and upfront attitude probably garnered them a great deal of goodwill. Something you really can't put a value too.

[TomScrut]

8 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

Agree with all of that but why the communication errors. "Goods are here" then are not.

 

Yes, unsure what has gone on there. Was a similar thing in 2019 with the first Azuma release. Due date was October and IIRC it was November before they said it was due mid 2020. Turned up in 2022!

[Steamport Southport]

10 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

There are several aspects of this though.

 

1. Are Hornbys delays worse than others? Most stuff seems to take 2-3 years from announcement (if announced fairly early on).

2. Some of the "delays" will be cash flow management. They might complete a design but not commit to the tooling immediately if they have had a load of it come at once/they are waiting for a big chunk of stock to land that is already paid for. Ultimately that is their decision, they don't owe us anything in terms of a delivery date.

3. Whilst there are only so many factories doing this sort of work, the manufacturers won't necessarily use the same ones as each other, or use the same one for everything.

 

No. How long did we wait for the Bachmann LNER V2s, GWR 94XX and MR 1Ps?

 

Over four years ISTR. And that was before a worldwide pandemic that hit one country in particular extremely badly.

 

They even changed the way they announced things due to the delays. When you see that Accurascale seem to have a similar method of not announcing before it's virtually ready then you can see how long these things are taking to come to market.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

I don't really know...

 

I think my sympathy lies with a company that's footed £100,000s for some product a couple of years ago that they've not yet made a penny from.

How do you know they've paid out that money and when?  Are they working to the normal practice of staged payments as certain parts of the process are completed, or are they using in this case a factory which back loads payment collection?  As they use  'multiple suppliers' how do you know which payment system all of those suppliers use or indeed which one has, or had, the contract for this model?

 

And - come to that - do we know if any delay is down to the factory?  For example the mad rush into 'Lion' and the abortive 'Titgate' debacle must have meant pushing aside other, previously planned, expenditure and production in order to quickly get that to market.  Hardly the first time Hornby have done it as that is exactly what they did to get their (Oxford) Terrier out before the Rails/Dapol model.

 

And ask any retailer about the way Hornby carry on - and don't overlook that we've seen in the thread the view from someone who was deeply involved in the retail business.  Hornby, even post tiers, have continued to short supply retailers - probably a consequence of the way that in most cases retail orders are accepted after the factory orders have been placed.  Surely all their 'multiple suppliers' aren't short delivering orders? 

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

There are several aspects of this though.

 

1. Are Hornbys delays worse than others? Most stuff seems to take 2-3 years from announcement (if announced fairly early on).

2. Some of the "delays" will be cash flow management. They might complete a design but not commit to the tooling immediately if they have had a load of it come at once/they are waiting for a big chunk of stock to land that is already paid for. Ultimately that is their decision, they don't owe us anything in terms of a delivery date.

3. Whilst there are only so many factories doing this sort of work, the manufacturers won't necessarily use the same ones as each other, or use the same one for everything.

One of the first lessons being hammered home to managers during the 'quality' era of the late 1980s.early '90s was a very one -

'Under promise and over deliver'

Repeatedly altering delivery dates after goods have allegedly arrived is the exact opposite and immensely frustrating for customers at all levels, i.e. both retailers and us, but particularly for retailers.  And alas Hornby have made a habit of over promising and under delivering in various ways.  Hopefully it might be one area where the new management, with its emphasis on sales, will not only listen but make the necessary changes within the company.

 

We all kn ow that there are delays to model production in China, and i think we all accept that. Hornby are not alone and from 'inside information' elsewhere I know they are not necessarily suffering to the same extent as others .  But don't go promising what you aren't going to achieve.  However don't forget that dates given by retailers are their understanding of a situation and things can get garbled in communication.

[AY Mod]

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

No. How long did we wait for the Bachmann LNER V2s, GWR 94XX and MR 1Ps?

 

It's valid, overall, but not at all when retailers and media are told a very close date when items will be available which, subsequently, turns out, at best, to be extremely optimistic. However, when it's the same individual telling you similar things on multiple occasions, credibility for unfortunate circumstances goes right out of the window leading to a natural cynicism over anything that's presented as a fact.

 

The boy wonder who cried wolf.

[Porcy Mane]

23 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

How do you know they've paid out that money and when?  etc., etc.

 

Put far more succinctly than I ever could Mike.

 

So back to the 2MT... Strangely, I'm still looking forward to getting mine and sticking it on the front of a 1963 St. Helens to Stella Gill pick up.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Porcy Mane

[PeterStiles]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

paid out that money and when

Looking through various posts on here there are quotes of £100k+ for the tooling alone... e.g. this post:

 

 

You are right in that the payments are likely staged, but I suggest it may be difficult to get the product shipped from China unless you've paid up...

 

 

But, I'm easy; you can blame Hornby for all the delays in their supply chain and their methods of notification if you want. It won't get the model on your layout any quicker; and if you won't buy Hornby in any case then, well, shrug...

 

 

[Widnes Model Centre]

Most recent dates we have are as follows.

 

R3836 due 23/9/2023

 

R3838 due 09/10/2023

 

R3839 due 04/12/2023

 

RRP’s are all £217.99.

 

Due dates can slip due to weather, customs clearance, not sure if this is still happening… availability of a space at destination port etc. 

 

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

are right in that the payments are likely staged, but I suggest it may be difficult to get the product shipped from China unless you've paid up...

 

I think most things leaving China work on a letter of credit system, with staged payments where necessary (so before any tooling is laid down I expect some sort of down payment also takes place). LOCs are a method of a bank underwriting the buyer as a risk to the seller, meaning unless something catastrophic happens in the global financial market the seller will get paid assuming the correct circumstances arise. It might be as simple as a bill of lading to prove that the goods are on the way, but as far as I am aware it could include other conditions. Not my area of expertise but I know we use them at work.

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And alas Hornby have made a habit of over promising and under delivering in various ways.  Hopefully it might be one area where the new management, with its emphasis on sales, will not only listen but make the necessary changes within the company.

 

I think the thing is, and I don't know what the make-up of Hornbys buyers are (or their revenue or profits), but they seem to be aggressive with marketing. YouTube ads etc., such as one with people drinking Coke at a barbeque with a Hornby Coca Cola train going round the table. Not being critical here of the campaign, but who are they trying to catch with that? New people I expect.

 

The thing is, I wonder if trying to sell train sets to adults is the right way to go about it. I liked train sets when I was a kid but I don't think it would get me into the hobby nowadays as they aren't interesting/mentally stimulating enough. I wonder if the marketing money that goes on adverts would be better spent on helping clubs and/or exhibitions generate interest, to facilitate newbies to come in and start playing/helping on an interesting layout that might inspire them to build their own layout and/or buy their own trains to run on whatever layouts they have access to.

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Put far more succinctly than I ever could Mike.

 

So back to the 2MT... Strangely, I'm still looking forward to getting mine and sticking it on the front of a 1963 St. Helens to Stella Gill pick up.

Agreed re the first part.

 

Re the second. Last weekend I sorted out a suitable crew and a front coupling. They are still on my work bench but they will probably be gobbled up by the carpet monster if I do not  put them in a labelled envelope.

If it takes four years to get a model produced, then so be it. However informing dealers that it will be with them by the end of the week and then defaulting, is not the way to run a business. The ultimate irony is that this is just about the first time ever that any company has produced a model with the number that I require. Other than the odd nammer. I await with interset to see all those layouts based on Hawick and Kelso being built over the winter.😃

Bernard

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

such as one with people drinking Coke at a barbeque with a Hornby Coca Cola train going round the table.

 

a line of coke at a bbq ?
 

i think some attendees might be confused if the host offered this and turned up with a Hornby box, though it might appeal later in the evening If the former turned up with the former as well as the latter.

Edited September 3, 2023 by adb968008

[coronach]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Agreed re the first part.

 

Re the second. Last weekend I sorted out a suitable crew and a front coupling. They are still on my work bench but they will probably be gobbled up by the carpet monster if I do not  put them in a labelled envelope.

If it takes four years to get a model produced, then so be it. However informing dealers that it will be with them by the end of the week and then defaulting, is not the way to run a business. The ultimate irony is that this is just about the first time ever that any company has produced a model with the number that I require. Other than the odd nammer. I await with interset to see all those layouts based on Hawick and Kelso being built over the winter.😃

Bernard

Some already exist :) 

 

[Covkid]

19 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

If Hornby delivered by the dates (or near to) the date they have stated on numerous occasions in the past they would have now recouped that investment and probably been in profit on that project.

 

They are a manufacturer. They are in the business of risking the investing of monies to make a profit. Some of that profit comes from supplying retailers via contract.

 

Retailers make their profit from the selling goods supplied by the manufactures and realising a mark up. Less risky for them due to buying on credit and to some degree being able  to plan and budget ahead because they know of approximate delivery dates amongst other factors.

 

Some of Hornby's recent "investments" have been incredibly poor probably realising very little profit but more importantly being for them a complete PR disaster along with loosing themselves a large amount of goodwill. Think about both Titgate & Lady and Lamp. Before that there was the Olympic games paraphernalia fiasco.

 

You seem to have the impression that I have some sort of gripe against Hornby. I don't. Like many, Tri-ang Hornby was the railway manufacture during my formative years and without them probably would never have developed an interest in railways (both prototype and model) along with industrial history. Being a modeller I could have quite happily built a 2MT but decided to support Hornby and buy their product, because, A) it looks to be an excellent model and B) I still feel a bit of nostalgia towards Hornby as a brand.

 

I talk to three model shop owners, two on a regular basis and one not so regular. One area were they share commonality is the frustrations they feel when trying to deal with the "new" Hornby  (and see subsequent posts whilst I've been typing this). They know they make a good product, they have prospective customers wanting to buy that product but cannot give assurances that they will ever receive an allocation. 

Those frustrations probably turn to exasperation when retailers are informed "product X"  will be delivered to you on such and such a date only to be told on delivery day, well actually... once again you know the rest.

 

You wonder why I have sympathy with retailers!

 

Very much agree with this "Porcy".  Other manufacturers seem to manage their customer expectations and I can only really think of the "warmed over" Bachmann 158 as being anywhere nearer the gestational period of the Hornby 78xxx.   

 

The proof of the pudding will be in eating in probably Dec 2024 / Jan 2025 when Hornby announce their next year programme. By then a good proportion of the TT:120 will have been delivered as well as the OO scale stuff. The management changes will be history and the new brooms will have definitely swept the deck down. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

Some good news!

 

[simmo009]

Sorry to give a negative vibe, but this is the 4th different date from 4 different retailers. I am ignoring any further speculation until I get an email / stock alert from Margate direct. Do Hornby actually know anything concerning the whereabouts of these models?

[Fireline]

8 hours ago, simmo009 said:

Do Hornby actually know anything concerning the whereabouts of these models?

 

Probably. Have you asked them, or are you expecting someone else to do it for you?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Fireline

[Bernard Lamb]

1 minute ago, Fireline said:

 

Probably. Have you asked them, or are you expecting someone else to do it for you?

I deal with a retailer who is a Hornby dealer. I expect him to receive accurate and up to date information from his supplier.  The whole business is a shambles, even after Hornby told dealers that the situation would get better. Even the wording on the direct Hornby mail shots is amiguous. Please do not make sarcastic comments trying to defend the indefensible.

Bernard. Who has now put his detailing parts back in the draw and gone on to another project.

[Fireline]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Please do not make sarcastic comments trying to defend the indefensible.

 

 

I am not trying to defend Hornby at all. My point was that someone was asking on a forum, rather than asking the company themselves. This is all too prevalent on forums, social media, etc. If you want to know the answer to something, ask the person that knows. I dare say if Hornby had told someone on here, they'd have posted long before his question!

[Wheatley]

30 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

Probably. Have you asked them, or are you expecting someone else to do it for you?

I asked the Hornby rep at Monkbar Model's 60th anniversary do the other week. "October".  

[Porcy Mane]

3 hours ago, Fireline said:

Probably. Have you asked them, or are you expecting someone else to do it for you?

 

Oh dearie me.

 

You only had to read up thread by a few posts for reasons prospective Hornby customers/re-sellers/media  don't have any confidence in getting a straight answer when communicating directly with Margate.

 

Marvellous if 78010 turns up at Beck Hole next week but past if past experiences  are anything to go off  (again, see up thread for examples) you can see why people are a little dubious.  No fault of TMC as they just go of the info given to them.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Porcy Mane

[simmo009]

I did indeed speak to Hornby today. The first ones (some of the first batch models) will be available at the end of this month, the rest of that batch in October,  and the batch 2 in December according to the nice lady in Customer Service. 2 - 3 weeks potentially folks. 🤞

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, simmo009 said:

I did indeed speak to Hornby today. The first ones (some of the first batch models) will be available at the end of this month, the rest of that batch in October,  and the batch 2 in December according to the nice lady in Customer Service. 2 - 3 weeks potentially folks. 🤞

Pray tell what that means in plain English.

It leaves me none the wiser.

I ordered one when they were first announced. My, then, supplier informed me that he could not fulfill my order due to the tier system restricting his allocation. I then found a dealer who was willing to accept my order. I am still waiting despite him having been informed by Hornby that they would be with him at the end of the week. That being two weeks ago, or is it now three? I have not looked to see if I have paid for it but I have updated my card details with my retailer. It must be a nightmare for him in respect of his cash flow.

Do you seriously believe that the information that you obtained from Hornby, vague as it is, can be taken as gospel?

It will turn up when it turns up. 

But it would be nice if Hornby could be a bit more up front with what is going on.

We ain't got a f'ing clue might be a better response.

Bernard

Bernard