HS2

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

It's up North and doesn't count and can be safely ignore it in London!

Not so - it is a worthy project in its own right but there needs to be a recognition that reinstatements like that to reverse Beaching era cuts are a very different situation to expanding the capacity of an existing line in terms of who and more importantly how many stand to benefit.

 

All HS2 is effectively doing is widening the existing WCML to 6 tracks - and I bet if that’s what they were actually doing (despite it being horrendously expensive / disruptive and affecting significantly more people in a bad way) then a lot of on here folk wouldn’t be nearly as hostile.

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Looking at the breakthrough more clearly, what the cutting head cuts through looks more like wattle & daub, than concrete.

Some types of concrete are designed to be deliberately weak - usually precisely because they are temporary and it’s intended they will be removed / cut through at some stage.

[Pendle Forest]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Not so - it is a worthy project in its own right but there needs to be a recognition that reinstatements like that to reverse Beaching era cuts are a very different situation to expanding the capacity of an existing line in terms of who and more importantly how many stand to benefit.

 

All HS2 is effectively doing is widening the existing WCML to 6 tracks - and I bet if that’s what they were actually doing (despite it being horrendously expensive / disruptive and affecting significantly more people in a bad way) then a lot of on here folk wouldn’t be nearly as hostile.

We know who would benefit... everyone south of Brum.  The whole area North of Brum would get nothing from HS2. Had the whole thing been built we could have got to London from Manc or Leeds slightly quicker but at greater cost than we can now. Wow!  Weirdly not everyone in the north really wants to do that.  In fact the majority couldn't careless.  

 

Three electrified transpennie routes would benefit the whole of the North Midlands and the North.  How many more people would u like a scheme to benefit?  

 

Extra capacity on the southern end of the WCML could be created by better speed profile matching of existing services, removing bottle neck junctions and ensuring the post-covid traffic patterns are better reflected in the working timetables. 

 

I'd go as far to say that HS2 was only ever wanted by the metro mayor's because it was the only real chance of investment that was on offer ;)

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

We know who would benefit... everyone south of Brum.  The whole area North of Brum would get nothing from HS2. Had the whole thing been built we could have got to London from Manc or Leeds slightly quicker but at greater cost than we can now. Wow!  Weirdly not everyone in the north really wants to do that.  In fact the majority couldn't careless.  

 

You overlook the benefit that would accrue to the northern cities from being more readily accessible to Londoners...

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

I'd go as far to say that HS2 was only ever wanted by the metro mayor's because it was the only real chance of investment that was on offer ;)

Way off the mark. You need to read up on the whys and wherefores.

 

Widening the 4 track WCML was considered almost impossible due to the cost and disruption over a much greater area

At the time HS2 was given the go ahead the WCML was short of freight paths on the slow lines because of the intense stopping services and had insufficient fast limted stop trains because the fast lines as far as Rugby were almost totally taken up with Pendos that largely were non stop for 80 miles.

 

The fact that Covid had intervened is irrelevant as the project was already well advanced and travel was expected to return to normal within a few years.

44 minutes ago, Pendle Forest said:

Extra capacity on the southern end of the WCML could be created by better speed profile matching of existing services, removing bottle neck junctions and ensuring the post-covid traffic patterns are better reflected in the working timetables. 

You obviously know more about timetabling than the professionals.

Go on tell us how you would speed match non stop 125mph Pendolinos, 45/60/75mph non stop freight and all stations stopping trains?

 

There are no bottleneck junctions on the south end of the WCML it's four tracks all the way from Euston to Rugby (slows go via Northampton)

track separation at Rugby is by flying junctions with the Birmingham services diverging to the West, much of the Trent Valley is four tracks and the major junctions at Nuneaton are grade separated.

The greatest bottleneck on the WCML is between Rugeley & Stafford with the flat junction at Colwich and the two track Shugborough tunnel, neither of which HS2 in it's current form addresses.

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

Actually it would allow intermodal traffic to reach Trafford Park and the New Salford Port without using Castlefield corridor.  With freight removed there is no need for the extra through platforms at Piccadilly.  Drax has also made it very clear that routing it's biomass trains over the route would significantly cut costs and reduce traffic as the flow would be around rather than through Manchester.  So for that link you can unlock the Castlefield Corridor... that would provide enormous benefit across the northwest.   

 

I'm fairly certain that it removes one of the most congested routes in the UK. 

Are you actually suggesting that intermodal freight from the South should reach Trafford Park by going via Skipton?

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Pendle Forest said:

We know who would benefit... everyone south of Brum.  The whole area North of Brum would get nothing from HS2. Had the whole thing been built we could have got to London from Manc or Leeds slightly quicker but at greater cost than we can now. Wow!  Weirdly not everyone in the north really wants to do that.  In fact the majority couldn't careless.  

 

Three electrified transpennie routes would benefit the whole of the North Midlands and the North.  How many more people would u like a scheme to benefit?  

 

Extra capacity on the southern end of the WCML could be created by better speed profile matching of existing services, removing bottle neck junctions and ensuring the post-covid traffic patterns are better reflected in the working timetables. 

 

I'd go as far to say that HS2 was only ever wanted by the metro mayor's because it was the only real chance of investment that was on offer ;)

That's a very interesting interpretation. 

Can I recommend reading up a little more on the whys and wherefores of HS2, written by a few people who know rather a lot about how new railways are planned and implemented?  I'm not one of them but if you want to benefit from their expertise, I would recommend starting with the previous three hundred and eighty-seven pages of this thread.

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, Pendle Forest said:

We know who would benefit... everyone south of Brum.  The whole area North of Brum would get nothing from HS2. Had the whole thing been built we could have got to London from Manc or Leeds slightly quicker but at greater cost than we can now. Wow!  Weirdly not everyone in the north really wants to do that.  In fact the majority couldn't careless.  

 

Absolute rubbish!

 

People north of Brum would still gain extra services between the likes of Brum and Manchester etc while the released capacity on the existing network would have allowed extra passenger services between Manchester and Crewe or Manchester and Stoke. Theirs would also have been more paths for freight. Thats in addition to the extra services to / from the South East (which given the proportion of rail journeys which start / finish in the Capital, even from North West England, on a statistical basis is not something to turn your nose up at) plus some journey time savings. 

 

Far too many posters living in ‘the north’ have this attitude that if it’s not happening at the end of their street so to speak then it’s not going to benefit anyone outside of London / the South East and it follows it must be opposed at all costs - which is a pretty selfish and narrow minded thought process. I don’t have (and am never likely to) have kids - if I adopted the same mindset I would be going round whinging like mad about my taxes being wasted in schools because there are ‘loads of childless people who get zero benefit from them'…

 

In something called a ‘society’ it is necessary to accept that what is needed in the wider scheme of things rarely aligns with things which you personally want or which only benefit your local area…..

 

Note:- For what it’s worth HS2 will be of very little use to me personally even though I live in that ‘greedy’ part of the country as I rarely have cause to venture to the Midlands / North of England. Yet in spite of that I am able to set aside emotion or regional bias and look at the project on a factual, long term basis….

Edited February 28 by phil-b259

[62613]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Absolute rubbish!

 

People north of Brum would still gain extra services between the likes of Brum and Manchester plus Manchester and London while the released capacity on the existing network would have allowed extra passenger services between Manchester and Crewe or Manchester and Stoke. Theirs would also have been more paths for freight. Thats in addition to the extra services to / from the South East (which given the proportion of rail journeys which start / finish in the Capital, even from North West England, on a statistical basis is not something to turn your nose up at) plus some journey time savings. 

 

Far too many posters living in ‘the north’ have this attitude that if it’s not happening at the end of their street so to speak then it’s not going to benefit anyone outside of London / the South East and it follows it must be opposed at all costs - which is a pretty selfish and narrow minded thought process. I don’t have (and am never likely to) have kids - if I adopted the same mindset I would be going round whinging like mad about my taxes being wasted in schools because there are ‘loads of childless people who get zero benefit from them'…

 

In something called a ‘society’ it is necessary to accept that what is needed in the wider scheme of things rarely aligns with things which you personally want or which only benefit your local area…..

 

Note:- For what it’s worth HS2 will be of very little use to me personally even though I live in that ‘greedy’ part of the country as I rarely have cause to venture to the Midlands / North of England. Yet in spite of that I am able to set aside emotion or regional bias and look at the project on a factual, long term basis….

At the moment, all the Glossop/Hadfield, Rose Hill Marple, New Mills, TransPennine terminators, and Sheffield via Stockport (and Bredbury) services are concentrated on platforms 1 - 3 at Manchester Piccadilly (it's historical!); almost every time I use the train from my local station, there are delays entering Piccadilly, as the outgoing train clears; that's after a slowing to 20 minutes. Meahwhile, Avanti have the use of platforms 5, 6, and 7 for their London services (out of 12 terminating platforms). If those trains had been removed to the new  Manchester HS2 station, there would be more room for these trains to spread out, maybe providing more services and speeding them up.

[APOLLO]

HS2 Bat tunnel costing £40Million being built. Lucky bats !!!!!!

 

 

Here is Wigan Wallgate's bat tunnel !!, looking towards Bolton / Manchester. The station building (a listed structure), main road and a row of shops are built on it. As you can see the bridges (2 of them) are in a poor condition and are held up by these contraptions.

 

Bolton to Wigan is currently being electrified, but not here to Wallgate due to the above (many £££££). It will go to nearby North Western, so no electrics to Wallgate or even trains to Headbolt Lane (Kirby) or Southport by the new secondhand bi mode 319's possible. A total shambles of an "investment" in trains and electrification if the above is not sorted, which in the current economic climate it very much seems it won't be.

 

THIS (and many, many other similar infrastructure atrocities) is what we flat capped, clog and shawl wearing third class northerners want a bit of investment on. We are not overly bothered about HS2, 225 mph, and many £millions spent on bats and great crested newts etc.

 

Oh and get these b***dy strikes sorted. THEY are killing our railways (and affecting my daughters new job in Manchester).

 

Brit15

[Steven B]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Far too many posters living in ‘the north’ have this attitude that if it’s not happening at the end of their street so to speak then it’s not going to benefit anyone outside of London / the South East and it follows it must be opposed at all costs - which is a pretty selfish and narrow minded thought process.

 

Perhaps too many posters living in the south-east forget that there's life outside of London. Getting between the larger towns and cities via public transport can be time consuming and expensive - regardless of where you are in the country.

 

Pre-Covid I took my daughter from Leeds to Bolton to visit family - we had a lovely day out, but the combination of buses and trains took 3x the time as driving would, cost more despite my daughter being under five and not needing a ticket.

 

Getting into the centre of Leeds (e.g. for access to station) takes three times longer by public transport than in similar sized cities in France of Germany.

 

The problem's not just restricted to the north - my in-laws travel from the north Kent coast to visit relatives in Hastings - again, travel by car is faster and less expensive.

 

HS2 won't fix any of these problems - if anything with the extended platforms being cancelled and HS2 train-sets being non-tilt enabled, speeds and capacity on the northern sections of the WCML could actually be reduced!

 

Steven B

[phil-b259]

26 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

Perhaps too many posters living in the south-east forget that there's life outside of London. Getting between the larger towns and cities via public transport can be time consuming and expensive - regardless of where you are in the country.

 

Pre-Covid I took my daughter from Leeds to Bolton to visit family - we had a lovely day out, but the combination of buses and trains took 3x the time as driving would, cost more despite my daughter being under five and not needing a ticket.

 

Getting into the centre of Leeds (e.g. for access to station) takes three times longer by public transport than in similar sized cities in France of Germany.

 

The problem's not just restricted to the north - my in-laws travel from the north Kent coast to visit relatives in Hastings - again, travel by car is faster and less expensive.

 

HS2 won't fix any of these problems - if anything with the extended platforms being cancelled and HS2 train-sets being non-tilt enabled, speeds and capacity on the northern sections of the WCML could actually be reduced!

 

Steven B

 

Which has nothing to do with HS2 and everything to do with subsidy levels and more to the point the amount of tax you are prepared top pay!

 

In most of Europe taxes are higher than the UK and that allied to much higher productivity levels (thus generating morte tax revenues from business) means their Governments are able to spend more on subsiding rail fares

 

The UK is a developed country with an ageing population and ageing infrastructure - and unlike lies spouted by political parties and certain think tanks, once you get to that stage taxes HAVE to be high just to stand still, let alone continue to improve.

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

Oh and get these b***dy strikes sorted. THEY are killing our railways (and affecting my daughters new job in Manchester).

 

 

 

That requires the DfT to stop playing "I'm Margret Thatcher and going to break these Unions regardless of the collateral damage" ethos.

 

Granted ASLEF are a militant bunch when they want to be - but where is the incentive to compromise when the DfT is approaching things from a "we will crush you" standpoint

[jamie92208]

Are we in danger of getting locked again. 

 

Jamie

[APOLLO]

21 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Are we in danger of getting locked again. 

 

Jamie

 

Nay, HS2 is a wonderful development with world class engineering.

 

It's the bats bits that ain't being built that causes angst.

 

Brit15

[GordonC]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You overlook the benefit that would accrue to the northern cities from being more readily accessible to Londoners...

 

Speeding up commuting in the past has increased the range at which commuters travel from London, so its probably going to increase the numbers working in London but living in the north and thus, increase housing costs? So who does it benefit more?

 

[phil-b259]

47 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

 

It's the bits that ain't being built that causes angst.

 

Brit15

👏👏👏👏👏👏

 

(Or people who who can’t be bothered to read through the entirety of this thread which debunks the myths and lies surrounding the need for it in the first place)

[locoholic]

16 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Are you actually suggesting that intermodal freight from the South should reach Trafford Park by going via Skipton?

The freight from Daventry to Cardiff goes via Crewe at the moment. Skipton would be no more ridiculous.

[locoholic]

16 hours ago, Northmoor said:

That's a very interesting interpretation. 

Can I recommend reading up a little more on the whys and wherefores of HS2, written by a few people who know rather a lot about how new railways are planned and implemented?  I'm not one of them but if you want to benefit from their expertise, I would recommend starting with the previous three hundred and eighty-seven pages of this thread.

Their "expertise" is what has led to the monumental cost increases and general impression that the HS2 project is totally out of control and shockingly poor value for money!

[Covkid]

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

The greatest bottleneck on the WCML is between Rugeley & Stafford with the flat junction at Colwich and the two track Shugborough tunnel, neither of which HS2 in it's current form addresses.

 

Exactly.  Sunak's  decision has moved the WCML problem which HS2 was to solve, a few miles north up the Trent Valley, and more severe.  At least the fast trains could achieve 125mph for much of Stafford - Willesden. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

A quick Wizz along the line (HS2) from Wendover to Kenilworth......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[GordonC]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Absolute rubbish!

 

People north of Brum would still gain extra services between the likes of Brum and Manchester etc while the released capacity on the existing network would have allowed extra passenger services between Manchester and Crewe or Manchester and Stoke. Theirs would also have been more paths for freight. Thats in addition to the extra services to / from the South East (which given the proportion of rail journeys which start / finish in the Capital, even from North West England, on a statistical basis is not something to turn your nose up at) plus some journey time savings. 

 

Far too many posters living in ‘the north’ have this attitude that if it’s not happening at the end of their street so to speak then it’s not going to benefit anyone outside of London / the South East and it follows it must be opposed at all costs - which is a pretty selfish and narrow minded thought process. I don’t have (and am never likely to) have kids - if I adopted the same mindset I would be going round whinging like mad about my taxes being wasted in schools because there are ‘loads of childless people who get zero benefit from them'…

 

In something called a ‘society’ it is necessary to accept that what is needed in the wider scheme of things rarely aligns with things which you personally want or which only benefit your local area…..

 

Note:- For what it’s worth HS2 will be of very little use to me personally even though I live in that ‘greedy’ part of the country as I rarely have cause to venture to the Midlands / North of England. Yet in spite of that I am able to set aside emotion or regional bias and look at the project on a factual, long term basis….

 

But the thing is, if faster services are not possible, then what exactly are we getting for the vast cost of HS2.

 

We're told its for capacity more than speed, but its being built for 225mph services and thats increased the cost of needing tunnels everywhere to keep it out of sight of local residents ... but why engineer it for that and all the tunnels if the trains aren't actually going to get there significantly faster than the existing 125mph tilting ones do? 15-20 mins quicker to Manchester or Liverpool isn't going to blow many folks socks off if it takes longer to get to the more limited stations that they stop at and you can guarantee tickets are going to cost extra ... for a 'premium' service that saves a handful of minutes.

 

Alternatively, if it had been built as a 125mph or even 140mph railway, would it still have needed so many tunnels and cost so much? While physically building for 225mph and 125mph might not cost much difference, but if 225mph means more needs to be done to approve the planning then thats greatly increasing the cost.

 

If we need capacity for freight then would a 75mph railway have been fast enough and either the new line used for expresses or leave them where they are on the WCML.

[corneliuslundie]

I think you will find if you read above (for a good number of pages) that a 125 mph line would have been little cheaper as much of the unnecessary tunnels etc would have been demanded anyway by the NIMBYs. And of course a faster line has more capacity and faster trains can make more journeys so you need fewer of them.

Jonathan

[Ron Ron Ron]

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

But the thing is, if faster services are not possible, then what exactly are we getting for the vast cost of HS2.

 

Half the job completed !

However, that half finished job will release a lot of capacity on the WCML, south of Handsacre and Birmingham.

It would release a lot more if Phase 2a &b were completed as originally planned.

 

 

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

......We're told its for capacity more than speed, but its being built for 225mph services and thats increased the cost of needing tunnels everywhere to keep it out of sight of local residents ... but why engineer it for that and all the tunnels if the trains aren't actually going to get there significantly faster than the existing 125mph tilting ones do?........

 

The design speed of the line has no bearing whatsoever on the amount of tunnelling being carried out.

Some of the tunnelling is due to topography, as in conventional rail, but the vast majority of it is being done to placate local objections, NIMBYism and for environmental reasons.

The same amount of tunnelling would have been carried out for a max line speed of 125 mph, given the same political and local pressure would have been applied, regardless.

 

 

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

..... 15-20 mins quicker to Manchester or Liverpool isn't going to blow many folks socks off if it takes longer to get to the more limited stations that they stop at .......

 

If HS2 is ultimately completed in full  (i.e. all the way to Manchester - Phase 2b), as it should be, the time saving between London and Manchester would be almost half - that's 1 hour quicker.

 

Limited stops is the whole point.

It isn't there to carry passengers between other places.

The vast majority of passengers on these routes, are travelling between the key points. Not to/from intermediate stops.

The predicted future growth is also expected to be in this point to point market.

 

 

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

.......and you can guarantee tickets are going to cost extra ... for a 'premium' service that saves a handful of minutes........

 

Where has this assumption come from?

Current WCML intercity services are being relocated onto the new line.

HS2 isn't an alternative service, Premium or otherwise.

 

 

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

......Alternatively, if it had been built as a 125mph or even 140mph railway, would it still have needed so many tunnels and cost so much?

While physically building for 225mph and 125mph might not cost much difference, but if 225mph means more needs to be done to approve the planning then thats greatly increasing the cost.......

 

It would have made almost no difference in the cost.

The tunnels are not there because of the designed line speed.

The insistence in so much tunnelling and other mitigations against the visual impact, has cost an astronomical amount of money and is a large factor in the run away cost.

It has been argued that this has been at the expense of completing the the line to Manchester and possibly to Leeds as well.

 

 

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

......If we need capacity for freight then would a 75mph railway have been fast enough and either the new line used for expresses or leave them where they are on the WCML.

 

Capacity is needed for both freight and for local, regional and commuter passenger services.

Building a new line purely for freight would have had zero business case and wouldn't have achieved the objective of releasing sufficient capacity on the classic network.

You would still have had the capacity limitations of mixing slow and semi-fast trains, with 125 or 140 mph expresses.

In other words...not a very clever idea.

 

 

.

Edited February 28 by Ron Ron Ron

[martin_wynne]

15 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

a 125 mph line would have been little cheaper as much of the unnecessary tunnels etc would have been demanded anyway by the NIMBYs.

 

Even for a canal.