More model ideas

[6990WitherslackHall]

13 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Two EE locos?  That's a pair of 20s then.

Or 37s

[TomScrut]

17 hours ago, WCML100 said:

I think the 220/221 offering from Bachmann currently is good enough

 

I sorta agree, other than it would absolutely need updating for DCC etc.

 

Then the question comes up as to how much it would cost. If it's going to be £600 for a 221 (guess based on Bachmanns prices), will people buy it without internal lighting and with exposed motor in the middle car? I expect not and so it may be a significant retool anyway. Also a new 221 in XC would need to be not tilting although I expect that is doable with 220 mechanicals

[Bearwood West Yard]

1 hour ago, reddragon said:

It's also a very complex DCC conversion requiring 3 chips! and lots of ££££

I've done the conversion, it sounds worse than it actually is. Chips were no more than £60, being two accessory decoders and a primary decoder that need hard wiring in. All the LED's and resistors are about £20 on Rapid Electronics. I followed an online guide, its not too bad to be honest.

 

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Then the question comes up as to how much it would cost. If it's going to be £600 for a 221 (guess based on Bachmanns prices), will people buy it without internal lighting and with exposed motor in the middle car? I expect not and so it may be a significant retool anyway. Also a new 221 in XC would need to be not tilting although I expect that is doable with 220 mechanicals

The Bachmann 220/221 is showing its age with the first production run being released twenty years ago. DCC really only took off for British Railway modellers about ten years ago, with the bar for detail and accessories having been raised in the last five, so it'd be wrong for me to say it wasn't built for the future given that the long term business scope was one of standard DC.

 

On the other hand, the recently retooled 158 from Bachmann has really shown how much of a redesign the whole model has had to undertake to meet the high spec set by modellers in recent years. Motors in each coach and the underframe tooled to take the motor, enabling the interior lighting and a clear motor free saloon, least to mention the working Dellner for multiple unit working and the coach door release lights.

As much as Bachmann would make a fortune from the ever increasing demand for the 220/221, I fear that what we are asking for based on other recent models is simply too great to be viable in a business perspective, especially now that Bachmann is on the back foot, taking a loss in sales due to recent competition. By my reckoning, if there is an updated Voyager model and at a more sensible price, it wont be from Bachmann. And seeing that Hornby's LNER Azuma 5-car pack is going for £430, I would use that +£70 to gauge a new voyager tool RRP.   

 

But for me, I have to go with others on the Electrostar for consideration. The potential is unlimited given the Electrostar family of EMU's own the South East of England, running as far west as Southampton and as far North as Bedford (and I believe Cambridge) during the Thameslink lease of Southern 377's. The appeal given the huge operational area and wide choice of liveries and subclasses is an untapped goldmine. Although CMAC Models have been producing 3D printed bodyshells and bogies for Electrostars in OO, they are over-scale. 

[Delta_Who]

20 minutes ago, Bearwood West Yard said:

I've done the conversion, it sounds worse than it actually is. Chips were no more than £60, being two accessory decoders and a primary decoder that need hard wiring in. All the LED's and resistors are about £20 on Rapid Electronics. I followed an online guide, its not too bad to be honest.

 

 

Going through the DCC process myself, it's honestly not too bad. Here I'm using the Illuminated models prefab replacement light unit,... but there is still some physical hacking at plastic

housings involved.

 

But I do think new re-tooled versions would massively benefit todays market (especially considering the Class 222 was never produced, and we now have new operators and/or liveries since the original inception of the Bachmann model). It's also puzzling why electrostars were never produced in model formed, as one of the most modular and "extendable" EMUs you could possibly get.  If the average price for a carriage was around £70, you could make a decent 3-car set for £210-£250

 

[atom3624]

One thing I'm not liking reading about is the need to break the bogie chains off, just to permit removal of the body.

I generally will run a locomotive at part-power for several hours' time, so will need to 'touch up' with oil perhaps twice a year.

 

Is it not possible to mount a spring metal clip, into which the chain clips - simply pull off, then replace after replacing the body?

Just a thought.

 

Al.

[McC]

3 hours ago, atom3624 said:

One thing I'm not liking reading about is the need to break the bogie chains off, just to permit removal of the body.

I generally will run a locomotive at part-power for several hours' time, so will need to 'touch up' with oil perhaps twice a year.

 

Is it not possible to mount a spring metal clip, into which the chain clips - simply pull off, then replace after replacing the body?

Just a thought.

 

Al.

 

The chains are on a friction fit pin to the bogie so can be pulled out of the bogie too (leaving them attached to the body)

[Matt]

7 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

Going through the DCC process myself, it's honestly not too bad. Here I'm using the Illuminated models prefab replacement light unit,... but there is still some physical hacking at plastic

housings involved.

 

But I do think new re-tooled versions would massively benefit todays market (especially considering the Class 222 was never produced, and we now have new operators and/or liveries since the original inception of the Bachmann model). It's also puzzling why electrostars were never produced in model formed, as one of the most modular and "extendable" EMUs you could possibly get.  If the average price for a carriage was around £70, you could make a decent 3-car set for £210-£250

 

You need to switch that keyboard off before it catches fire….

[AndrewB7585]

8 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

 If the average price for a carriage was around £70, you could make a decent 3-car set for £210-£250

 

A normal hauled coach from Accurascale or Bachmann are getting around the £70 mark. Then one vehicle in the unit will need to be motorised, DCC socket etc. If we use one Accurascale loco at £170 plus two coaches at £65 as a guide I’d expect and Accurascale 3 car multiple unit to be around the £300 mark 

[Brian-1c]

Electrostar is a good choice, I will add my vote for this one. Especially if the Gautrain version was also modelled !

 

 

[Ncarter2]

All this talk of EMU’s, as much as I’d like to see the Electrostar, I’d rather see the PEP or Mk3 based units first. 
Maybe too niche, but given the impending 92’s how about the Eurotunnel tri-bo’s and rolling stock. Could follow up with a worthwhile Eurostar. 

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I have made a couple of comments on this thread before in relation to items that I would like to see produced. 
 

One main item that I mentioned previously but I didn’t explain my thinking and reasoning behind it is a new OO Gauge HST and MK3 coaches to run with them. 
 

I bought my first and last Hornby HST power cars two years ago in the form of the GWR Green special pack of 43016 & 43093. 
 

I put it into traffic almost immediately on my layout, something which doesn’t happen often because I usually like to have whatever coaches and wagons complement locos and units to put them into service at the same time, but in this instance I had already bought the GWR MK3s at around the same time. This was my first HST I had owned and operated so I was looking forward to running it. 
 

After just a few days of running, both power cars ‘trip’ the track and controller and power cars out themselves in terms of stopping moving and the directional lighting going off. I’m completely unsure why because I have a range of Bachmann, Dapol and ViTrains locos that run on my layout perfectly fine with Accurascale locos due to arrive in the future. 
 

Since this happened I have tried reprogramming the power cars together as a pair and individually, in an attempt to get them moving without them stopping, the lights going off on the power cars and it tripping the whole layout out. I have had no luck at all. Both power cars and DCC decoders were all new so they shouldn’t be faulty and not should the power cars have any muck on the wheels. 
 

I have also spoken to a friend who has examined recently produced Hornby power cars who says their are many errors with the chassis and consequent detailing. I have also noticed that many of the colours and paint schemes that Hornby produce seem to be incorrect and/or inaccurate. Then their is the fact that they don’t seem to run well, or at least mine don’t. The Power Cars would benefit I think from the Accurascale treatment as I am sure all of the retaking on the chassis would be produced correctly and accurately, the colours and paint schemes for the liveries would be accurate and true to reality and with ‘stay alive’ capacitors inside I’m sure they wouldn’t stop running and trip the layout out. 
 

Also their are many liveries and running numbers that can be produced. 
 

Furthermore, the pricing point for the Hornby power cars is just too much when you consider all of the above errors and inaccuracies. If Accurascale’s prices for their locos and coaches are anything to go by I would guess they could probably offer twin power car packs for around £210/£220 or something in that region, and that would be for the best, definitive model. Because of how many power cars their are in reality, the many liveries, running numbers and wide sphere of operation this would allow Accurascale to produce them in larger quantities in order to keep the price low for individual customers. 
 

Lastly is the MK3s to run with them. As well as Hornby not offering the definitive power cars they don’t offer the definitive MK3s in terms of detailing, internal lighting inside the coaches, and I am aware that some Hornby MK3s do not have the correct and appropriate tooling for their roofs and windows. I’m sure Accurascale would sort this out. 
 

They both sound like good ideas and no brainers really. 
 

Many people love the HSTs be it the power cars, MK3s or both. 
 

I would certainly like some more HSTs but just not from Hornby. 

In my opinion I think that we need the definitive power cars and MK3 coaches. The Hornby offerings are crying out for a retool and upgrade, especially to Accurascale standards. 

 

Can I rest my case haha! 
 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by DRS Crewe On A Mission

[murphaph]

2600 Class railcar. Either one will do 😀

[Delta_Who]

23 hours ago, Matt said:

You need to switch that keyboard off before it catches fire….

It's actually part of a ritual to try and manifest some more London underground RTR models

[Delta_Who]

23 hours ago, AndrewB7585 said:

A normal hauled coach from Accurascale or Bachmann are getting around the £70 mark. Then one vehicle in the unit will need to be motorised, DCC socket etc. If we use one Accurascale loco at £170 plus two coaches at £65 as a guide I’d expect and Accurascale 3 car multiple unit to be around the £300 mark 

 

I consider the EFE rail 1938 stock as a pricing model... which could be around £280 unmotorised (£70 per car) and £350 motorized (+£70) (current tooling). Electronic engineering would be more straightforward, and less tooling variations... with potential to market as a highly modular unit. That's just wild speculation on my part, and does not reflect rising costs of material, shipping, admin etc.

[wombatofludham]

If you are thinking EMUs (that aren't DART shaped...) a 313 and a 312 would go nicely with your ECML loco range.  The 313 is probably the most straightforward with a lot of livery options and standardisation, and they ran on other regions, and the 312 could give you a back door into a 310 and again ran in numerous liveries.

So, a new Class 116/125 dmu and a 313 could see your Great Northern Local range look almost planned.

[wombatofludham]

18 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

In my opinion I think that we need the definitive power cars and MK3 coaches. The Hornby offerings are crying out for a retool and upgrade, especially to Accurascale standards. 

 

Can I rest my case haha! 
 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Hornby have announced retooled power cars and MK3 stock this year but like you I gave up on my HST fleet.  Having tested them on the layout when built, where they ran perfectly, I went back to the unit a couple of months later and it was unable to pull the 8 car rake, despite my Heljan and Bachmann locos working fine.  Cleaning the wheels didn't help, so I immediately slapped a ban on HSTs at "Wednesford" and they were re-allocated to a well known box shifter in Widnes in exchange for more freight stock and an 86.  As it was the only stock unable to cope with the layout, I could rule out any other factors such as dodgy track or dirty rails.

To be honest it was a bit of a Rule 1 item so I'm not too fussed but it is frustrating when something works one time then gets all flaky the next.  I could be tempted back by an Accurascale HST if one was to emerge with the correct HST trailers for the NE-SW fleet of the 80s and 90s.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

7 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Hornby have announced retooled power cars and MK3 stock this year but like you I gave up on my HST fleet.  Having tested them on the layout when built, where they ran perfectly, I went back to the unit a couple of months later and it was unable to pull the 8 car rake, despite my Heljan and Bachmann locos working fine.  Cleaning the wheels didn't help, so I immediately slapped a ban on HSTs at "Wednesford" and they were re-allocated to a well known box shifter in Widnes in exchange for more freight stock and an 86.  As it was the only stock unable to cope with the layout, I could rule out any other factors such as dodgy track or dirty rails.

To be honest it was a bit of a Rule 1 item so I'm not too fussed but it is frustrating when something works one time then gets all flaky the next.  I could be tempted back by an Accurascale HST if one was to emerge with the correct HST trailers for the NE-SW fleet of the 80s and 90s.

I completely agree with you. 
 

I heard that their would be some slight upgrades in certain areas to the Hornby power cars but I’m assuming that this won’t include rectifying the errors on the chassis in terms of detailing. Their also is no mention of ‘stay alive’ capacitors to be fitted either as part of the upgrade which is also disappointing. To manufacturers like Accurascale these are fitted as standard to all of their locos and stock to avoid locos stopping, lighting going out and sound going off on mucky track and points etc. 

 

I’m the same, my HST set is grounded too because the coaches aren’t much use without the power cars able to pull them. As we say it must be something to do with Hornby locos because we have many other manufacturers locos and have no issue with them. It’s just annoying isn’t it that with power cars, deciders for them and a decent rake of coaches in between you are looking at between £500-£700 of stock that we can’t use. I don’t blame you for selling the HST set on and using the funds to buy other stock. I have to say if I can get the power cars working I’m tempted to do the same. 
 

The HST is a bit different to the stock I usually run too. I mostly just run freight locos and stock, so I thought I would add a bit of variety in buying a GWR Green liveried HST, mainly because I like the livery and the routes that they have worked on. Trust me to probably buy one of the worst passenger trains. I could have opted for the Bachmann GWR 150216 instead. 
 

With Accurascale pricing I would probably be tempted to buy 2/3 HSTs if I could afford to. No doubt the power cars and MK3s would be far superior to Hornby’s versions and they would be considerably cheaper too. 
 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

[toby_tl10]

2 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

I completely agree with you. 
 

I heard that their would be some slight upgrades in certain areas to the Hornby power cars but I’m assuming that this won’t include rectifying the errors on the chassis in terms of detailing. Their also is no mention of ‘stay alive’ capacitors to be fitted either as part of the upgrade which is also disappointing. To manufacturers like Accurascale these are fitted as standard to all of their locos and stock to avoid locos stopping, lighting going out and sound going off on mucky track and points etc. 

 

I’m the same, my HST set is grounded too because the coaches aren’t much use without the power cars able to pull them. As we say it must be something to do with Hornby locos because we have many other manufacturers locos and have no issue with them. It’s just annoying isn’t it that with power cars, deciders for them and a decent rake of coaches in between you are looking at between £500-£700 of stock that we can’t use. I don’t blame you for selling the HST set on and using the funds to buy other stock. I have to say if I can get the power cars working I’m tempted to do the same. 
 

The HST is a bit different to the stock I usually run too. I mostly just run freight locos and stock, so I thought I would add a bit of variety in buying a GWR Green liveried HST, mainly because I like the livery and the routes that they have worked on. Trust me to probably buy one of the worst passenger trains. I could have opted for the Bachmann GWR 150216 instead. 
 

With Accurascale pricing I would probably be tempted to buy 2/3 HSTs if I could afford to. No doubt the power cars and MK3s would be far superior to Hornby’s versions and they would be considerably cheaper too. 
 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

The case for direct competition against Hornby is complicated, and it's due to Hornby's wealth of old toolings and their current pricing strategy.

 

From observation, Hornby is pricing their products as a monopolist. As model railway products are heterogeneous, price competition isn't really a thing. (If you want to get a modern Gresley Pacific, you can only get it from Hornby.) The only thing they have to compete with is consumers' price elasticity. Price the products at the highest that someone is willing to purchase. M7 for £193.99, Class 31 for £217.99, Bulleid Light Pacific for £266.50, etc. They don't care if it's a 30-year-old tooling as they are the only one offering these products in the market.

 

Hornby is pricing this way because there is no competition. However, when competition arises, I believe this could change. As these products were tooled decades ago, they haven't got tooling costs to cover. They could sell these products at a much lower price while still making profits. When competition eventually arrives, Hornby could lower their prices in an attempt to drive competitors out of the market, e.g. when the Accurascale Class 31 arrives in stock, Hornby is likely to price their 31 at £157.99 (or lower) instead of £217.99. The same could be said for anything that duplicates Hornby's range which uses an old tooling. Thus the risk of duplicating Hornby's range lies in how low Hornby is willing to price to drive out a competitor.

 

The HST is basically the same story... until Hornby announced a complete retool. I actually think this makes a better case for an Accurascale HST. Instead of a 2008 HST with a potentially very low price tag, the Accurascale HST would face a 2023 HST with a high Hornby price tag. Competition will then be based on specs and delivery date. (Kudos to the Accurascale team if the project is already well underway)

 

If Accurascale actually makes a HST, I think the way to win the market is to NOT make dummy cars and to sell power cars individually. You get much more flexibility in choosing the liveries and numbers of your own fleet, and you don't have to worry about not being able to run a particular power car on its own because it's a dummy. This is particularly useful for special liveried power cars or you just want your power cars to wear different liveries as commonly seen irl, e.g. FGW and GWR, EMR and ex-LNER.

 

Bear in mind that manufacturers nowadays tell us that a motorised car and a dummy cost the same to produce, as seen in the Heljan Class 25 ETHEL.

Edited July 3, 2022 by toby_tl10

[47606odin]

Whatever you do, don’t do all singing all dancing O gauge AC electrics. My wallet wouldn’t survive it

[6990WitherslackHall]

1 minute ago, 47606odin said:

Whatever you do, don’t do all singing all dancing O gauge AC electrics. My wallet wouldn’t survive it

Noted.

[Dorset33]

2 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

The case for direct competition against Hornby is complicated, and it's due to Hornby's wealth of old toolings and their current pricing strategy.

 

From observation, Hornby is pricing their products as a monopolist. As model railway products are heterogeneous, price competition isn't really a thing. (If you want to get a modern Gresley Pacific, you can only get it from Hornby.) The only thing they have to compete with is consumers' price elasticity. Price the products at the highest that someone is willing to purchase. M7 for £193.99, Class 31 for £217.99, Bulleid Light Pacific for £266.50, etc. They don't care if it's a 30-year-old tooling as they are the only one offering these products in the market.

 

Hornby is pricing this way because there is no competition. However, when competition arises, I believe this could change. As these products were tooled decades ago, they haven't got tooling costs to cover. They could sell these products at a much lower price while still making profits. When competition eventually arrives, Hornby could lower their prices in an attempt to drive competitors out of the market, e.g. when the Accurascale Class 31 arrives in stock, Hornby is likely to price their 31 at £157.99 (or lower) instead of £217.99. The same could be said for anything that duplicates Hornby's range which uses an old tooling. Thus the risk of duplicating Hornby's range lies in how low Hornby is willing to price to drive out a competitor.

 

The HST is basically the same story... until Hornby announced a complete retool. I actually think this makes a better case for an Accurascale HST. Instead of a 2008 HST with a potentially very low price tag, the Accurascale HST would face a 2023 HST with a high Hornby price tag. Competition will then be based on specs and delivery date. (Kudos to the Accurascale team if the project is already well underway)

 

If Accurascale actually makes a HST, I think the way to win the market is to NOT make dummy cars and to sell power cars individually. You get much more flexibility in choosing the liveries and numbers of your own fleet, and you don't have to worry about not being able to run a particular power car on its own because it's a dummy. This is particularly useful for special liveried power cars or you just want your power cars to wear different liveries as commonly seen irl, e.g. FGW and GWR, EMR and ex-LNER.

 

Bear in mind that manufacturers nowadays tell us that a motorised car and a dummy cost the same to produce, as seen in the Heljan Class 25 ETHEL.

For me, the ultimate HST would be interconnected at the chassis and not bogies, power cars available individually and both powered, with the option to have sound in some of the MK3 stock to replicate air suspension sounds and door slams. If that happened it would be a very bad day for my bank account!!

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

Price the products at the highest that someone is willing to purchase

 

And they can always discount if they aren't popular.

 

4 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

If Accurascale actually makes a HST, I think the way to win the market is to NOT make dummy cars and to sell power cars individually. You get much more flexibility in choosing the liveries and numbers of your own fleet, and you don't have to worry about not being able to run a particular power car on its own because it's a dummy.

 

The only thing with that is I think it should be a feature to disengage the drive easily, to save having to consist on DCC.

 

4 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

Bear in mind that manufacturers nowadays tell us that a motorised car and a dummy cost the same to produce, as seen in the Heljan Class 25 ETHEL.

 

I think people seem to over value the things that make the thing go, like when they think a coach should be £30 and a loco can be £180 in the same breath.

[frobisher]

HST/MK3 territory is risky for all the reasons previously outlined, so definitely proceed with caution territory for AS.

 

To succeed they need to blow the coming Hornby tooling out of the water in certain areas; [Grandma, you know those eggs won't suck themselves...]

• Hornby don't seem to be even looking at non-CDL fitted (i.e. as built) MK3's and for many of us that's a deal breaker and we know what compromise we are likely to face from Hornby at a later date (as we have from Oxford, Dapol).  To my mind, these actually seems the easiest fix (manufacturing processes notwithstanding).  The base tooling should be without CDL fitted, but with the halfway through hole at the right location on the inside of the shell so that it can easily be punched through at the factory to add the CDL fittings as an extra detail fitting (obviously with light provision to be DCC controlled etc.).
• The lifespan of the HST/MK3s are such there's a plethora of options. Don't necessarily get distracted doing all of them simultaneously but do complete subsets well.  Do not compromise on the catering vehicles.
• Understand that people heavily invested in Hornby rakes won't necessarily be renewing everything all at once so make sure the HST/MK3s play as nice as they can with what went before (shudder) without compromising AS's values.
• Tool for the NMT specific variants of the MK3.  You can ride that money train all the way to the bank.
• HST PCs should just be awesome, but I know AS will manage that without prompting...

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, frobisher said:

To succeed they need to blow the coming Hornby tooling out of the water in certain areas;

 

Further to your very good post, I think they ought to do:

 

Loco hauled variants

DVT

Chiltern door variant (which would help with selling the DVT too), although I aren't sure how viable this would be (how many people model that line?).

Sleepers

 

Not necessarily all at once, but if stuff can be designed to allow for the variants it would help!

 

 

[frobisher]

9 minutes ago, The Black Prince said:

I don't think there's too much wrong with the DVT, unless I've missed something glaringly obvious.. perhaps the headlights could be reworked but overall the shape is good. Although I'm sure if AS did one it would be the ultimate. 

 

Lack of a close coupling mechanism, no front CCM pretty much.  Both of which Dapol managed on their N Gauge one.