More model ideas

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, IOW O2 said:

Unless I've been asleep, was there an announcement?

 

I assume it was the LMR and ScR maroon BR suburban Mk1s.

 

https://www.accurascale.com/blogs/news/marooned-in-suburban-paradise-mark-1-subs-in-maroon-unveiled

 

 

 

Jason

[BVMR21]

On 25/02/2024 at 12:55, Steamport Southport said:

 

Whilst very admirable you have to sell more than two and I severely doubt the demand is there for RTR pre grouping South Wales locomotives. Certainly not in the thousands you would need for it to be viable.

 

Nucast and SE Finecast do kits for them. Maybe send a bit of business their way?

 

 

Jason

I would say it is viable, if small classes generally are viable (looking at the P class and the like). The Taff Vale O1 and O2 have the advantage of each having preserved examples, both of which are very popular locos, so from that perspective it should be fine.

I think the market is there, for at least a small number of prototypes, so why not? We are seeing some infiltration of the Rhymney and Taff Vale in RTR albeit as more generic liveries on wagons from Rapido, so there is clearly some demand for these companies.

[wombatofludham]

I can't help thinking that there might be a better chance of getting South Wales Valleys locos and authentic design non-generic 4 and 6 wheel coaches from Rapido.  Certainly in OO, they have more or less stuck two fingers up to anything post-steam bar a few wagon commitments and seem to be pursuing more niche steam era subjects.  I do think small runs of interesting, slightly obscure or off-radar subjects like authentic four and six wheelers and pre-grouping small engines seem to fit their OO range philosophy and business model, and at least if their usual pre-order model attracted enough interest to proceed to manufacture it would confirm or deny the actual interest in the subject.

Business case e-mails to Rapido could be worth a few minutes keyboard time.

[The Johnster]

Since Corbs is a regular here, and the company clearly monitors our scribblings, there is probably no need to distract them with business-case emails…

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 20/11/2023 at 18:31, Bishdurham said:

I wonder if the new LNER has ever thought of naming an Azuma Red Rum...

We use Terry Pratchett's invention from well over a decade before they entered service, every time one whips past in sight on the nearby stretches of the ECML.

 

Let's hear it for the Ambiguous Pazuma.

[No Decorum]

20 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I can't help thinking that there might be a better chance of getting South Wales Valleys locos and authentic design non-generic 4 and 6 wheel coaches from Rapido.  Certainly in OO, they have more or less stuck two fingers up to anything post-steam bar a few wagon commitments and seem to be pursuing more niche steam era subjects.  I do think small runs of interesting, slightly obscure or off-radar subjects like authentic four and six wheelers and pre-grouping small engines seem to fit their OO range philosophy and business model, and at least if their usual pre-order model attracted enough interest to proceed to manufacture it would confirm or deny the actual interest in the subject.

Business case e-mails to Rapido could be worth a few minutes keyboard time.

Authentic four and six wheelers (and the locos to pull them) would be very welcome. My fear is that generic coaches will cause reluctance on the part of manufacturers to produce authentic versions.

[Islesy]

23 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

My fear is that generic coaches will cause reluctance on the part of manufacturers to produce authentic versions.

Not the case, at least in my view. The right coaches, for the right stock and made accurately, will sell, it's just a case of selecting the right ones and tooling intelligently. The 'Generics' have their place, and are a valid (and viable) option for many and are a good basis for kit bashing into accurate prototypes.

[Dunsignalling]

I think this will very much be a "pick your company" exercise.

 

To give prototypical 4/6-wheelers a decent chance, whoever makes them will also need to produce a couple of appropriate locos and two or three wagons, including a goods brake, to offer a decent start for newcomers to pre-group modelling.

 

"Preaching to the choir", by offering coaches in isolation, won't be sufficient, IMHO.  

 

John

[NZRedBaron]

15 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

To give prototypical 4/6-wheelers a decent chance, whoever makes them will also need to produce a couple of appropriate locos and two or three wagons, including a goods brake, to offer a decent start for newcomers to pre-group modelling.

 

John

That's my view too; just having an engine is no good- but if there are a few wagon types and a brakevan, or even some token coaches for a passenger engine to pull, then that's a whole different story.

[Wickham Green too]

Unfortunately, contemporary 4/6wh coaches of  the railway with best coverage in the loco and wagon field of recent years - the SECR - didn't have a very long life in that form as most were kit-bashed into electric units in SR days ............................................ those, though probably mentioned before in this thread would be appropriate 'More model ideas', of course.

[The Johnster]

I’m wondering if a ‘semi-generic’ approach night work (but don’t know enough about pre-grouping coaches to say).  Assuming (big assume) that there are coaches of the same ball-park overall dimensions that were used on several different pre-group railways, but that the ‘look’ of them was significantly different because of detailing such as door ventilators, roof profile, different buffers, and such, could not a generic coach be produced to the basic dimensions and overlaid with the different details in different production runs?  Probably not an Accura project, but someone might take the idea up…

[Tim Dubya]

I will only buy prototypical models from now on.   I don't see the point in spending money on something that isn't real, it's just too expensive.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

26 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

I will only buy prototypical models from now on.

That's been my policy* since first involvement with a model railway club in my teens. The question then is, how long do those of us intent on this policy constitute a sufficiently large market for RTR OO production to be justifiable?

 

*But not 'hard line', I'll buy anything suitable for some bashing into a decent model of what's required. Scooping up Airfix GMR origin wagon models of neglected really common types a specialty.

[Tim Dubya]

I always wondered about the "genesis" coaches from Hattons and Hornby.  Obviously they sold well as there's still a second (?) run.  I would have thought that it made more sense to tool up accurate 4 and 6 wheelers, say of GWR prototypes, then release those in all prototypical GWR liveries (including those that made it to departmental use).  Then release those same coaches in fictitious liveries of the other railways?  Was it too difficult/expensive for the target market with the research and tooling costs?

 

So near, yet so far 🤔

[No Decorum]

24 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

I always wondered about the "genesis" coaches from Hattons and Hornby.  Obviously they sold well as there's still a second (?) run.  I would have thought that it made more sense to tool up accurate 4 and 6 wheelers, say of GWR prototypes, then release those in all prototypical GWR liveries (including those that made it to departmental use).  Then release those same coaches in fictitious liveries of the other railways?  Was it too difficult/expensive for the target market with the research and tooling costs?

 

So near, yet so far 🤔

An expert on here posted that the Hornby four-wheel generics were actually models of SECR coaches, even if they could be better. On the strength of that, I got four, omitting the one which was too short. It has been done after a fashion. All the same, I agree with your point. Particular or fussy people get authentic coaches if they fit with their particular interests and people who don’t mind so much get coaches in liveries which match their locomotives. There’s room for us all. 

[The Johnster]

That’s pretty much what happened with the Triang shorty clerestories, produced in a correct GW livery (albeit not the fully lined out version that should have accompanied LOTI), and in BR black engineering livery.  The coaches then appeared at various times in Midland and LNER teak livery, and in BR carmine/cream accompanying a B12 in a train set.  It looked reasonably plausible in all of them, in fact better in some ways than the GW livery which they were very obviously a compartment short for, the main visual problem being the completely incorrect generic B1 BR bogies that all Triang stock had.  Inexcusably, they are still being produced with these bogies.  
 

Hornby were originally producing their 4- and 6-wheel coaches as accurate LBSCR stock, the origin of the air-brake chassis detail, but decided to produce them as simplified generics in response to Hattons’ ‘Genesis’ project, a rather aggressive marketing move that won them no friends, but of course who needs friends when you’re making profits.  This may come back to haunt them one day; even in business there is such a thing as karma…. It means that the coaches are not even particularly good representations of LBSCR coaches.  

Edited March 1 by The Johnster

[No Decorum]

20 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

That’s pretty much what happened with the Triang shorty clerestories, produced in a correct GW livery (albeit not the fully lined out version that should have accompanied LOTI), and in BR black engineering livery.  The coaches then appeared at various times in Midland and LNER teak livery, and in BR carmine/cream accompanying a B12 in a train set.  It looked reasonably plausible in all of them, in fact better in some ways than the GW livery which they were very obviously a compartment short for, the main visual problem being the completely incorrect generic B1 BR bogies that all Triang stock had.  Inexcusably, they are still being produced with these bogies.  
 

Hornby were originally producing their 4- and 6-wheel coaches as accurate LBSCR stock, the origin of the air-brake chassis detail, but decided to produce them as simplified generics in response to Hattons’ ‘Genesis’ project, a rather aggressive marketing move that won them no friends, but of course who needs friends when you’re making profits.  This may come back to haunt them one day; even in business there is such a thing as karma…. It means that the coaches are not even particularly good representations of LBSCR coaches.  

Except that Hornby isn’t making profits. A result, possibly, of not winning friends but more likely a result of putting faulty models on the market. There is a lot which is good about Hornby and improvements have been made, in particular paint finishes and DCC provision, but things need to be tightened up further.

[wombatofludham]

Revenons a nos moutons...

How's the 80 class coming on?  Must be due a reveal soon along with the revised Dutch Van for the incoming IE Mk2 sets?

[Islesy]

4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

An expert on here posted that the Hornby four-wheel generics were actually models of SECR coaches, even if they could be better.

I can catergorically state that they weren't based on SECR stock 😉

The base vehicles surveyed were LB&SCR D47, D33, D45, D34 and D44, before they were butchered about...

[MJI]

2 hours ago, Islesy said:

I can catergorically state that they weren't based on SECR stock 😉

The base vehicles surveyed were LB&SCR D47, D33, D45, D34 and D44, before they were butchered about...

What was the point of that?

 

 

They could have painted them up but left as models rather than toys.

[No Decorum]

15 hours ago, Islesy said:

I can catergorically state that they weren't based on SECR stock 😉

The base vehicles surveyed were LB&SCR D47, D33, D45, D34 and D44, before they were butchered about...

Of course they were. My clanger and my apologies.

[The Johnster]

13 hours ago, MJI said:

What was the point of that?

 

 

They could have painted them up but left as models rather than toys.

The point was to get them into the shops as quickly as possible before the Hattons Genesis coaches got there first.  The pricing was set to match the Hattons models and one presumes that Hornby were working to the principle that the first to market would take the lion’s share of the sales, which seems to have been borne out in practice.  
 

Hornby has form in this sort of cynical and highly aggressive marketing, designed as spoilers to deny sales to the competition at least as much as to generate them for itself.  They attacked Dapol in a similar fashion with the large prairie and Rails with the Terrier.  Hopefully changes in top management personnel at Margate will mean that it doesn’t happen again; fair competition is of course A Good Thing, but this sort of shennanigans leads to inferior models and is a disservice to the hobby and, frankly, to us.  Accidental duplication of models is inevitable in a competitive market but is not the most desirable feature of it, and this sort of gazumping of other peoples’ models is wilful duplication, anything but accidental…

[MJI]

And then i have not bought anything of theirs new in ages.

 

Just second hand HST stock in blue grey with a certain glazing tint.

[Islesy]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

They attacked Dapol in a similar fashion with the large prairie

Your two other points regarding Hattons and Rails are both valid, but to nip any new scuttlebut in the making, that was not the case with the Large Prairie.

The Collet non-gangways and the Large Prairie were part of a combined project, and were meant to arrive at the same time, but the Prairie was delayed in production. The Development team were well advanced with the Prairie when Dapol announced, it was just an unfortunate duplication, just as our Manor and theirs was an unfortunate duplication.

 

All the best,

Paul

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 01/03/2024 at 08:53, Islesy said:

...The right coaches, for the right stock and made accurately, will sell, it's just a case of selecting the right ones and tooling intelligently...

To my mind, the next major test of this schema are the Quad Arts from Ellis Clark.

Selection: a design of pre-group origin which remained in service until 1966 and was hauled by a large proportion of the passenger locos working on the ECML over that period, and regularly wandered further afield on day excursion traffic.

Accuracy and intelligent tooling: all signals are good.