Heljan announce Class 104 DMU in OO gauge

[wombatofludham]

Hatton's Faceache page now showing photos of the decorated samples, although I can't find them elsewhere.  For those of you still housing a wasp up your bottom about Facebook, the website has the images.

[Darius43]

From an Hattons email:-

 

 

    
 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

[SHerr]

On 06/10/2023 at 16:33, Darius43 said:

From an Hattons email:-

 

 

    
 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

Any thoughts/comments from those in the know? Do these seem to hit the right notes? They seemed to get positive feedback on earlier samples so hoping the lack of comments is a good thing.

 

I might order one but it’s not essential stock for my area modelled so interested in any views before pressing the button (especially now I’ve 3 SLW 25’s on order)

[NBL]

13 minutes ago, SHerr said:

Any thoughts/comments from those in the know? Do these seem to hit the right notes? They seemed to get positive feedback on earlier samples so hoping the lack of comments is a good thing.

 

I might order one but it’s not essential stock for my area modelled so interested in any views before pressing the button (especially now I’ve 3 SLW 25’s on order)

If they look right to you then surely that's all that matters, rather than other peoples opinions.

 

 

[SHMD]

They look good to my (admittedly fading) memories of these.

 

I think I will be getting one.

 

 

Kev.

[adb968008]

These are right up my street and my childhood.

I think they look dead on and very nice.

a 6 car made of up 3x2 cars sums up Blackpool very nicely.

a two car sums up Blackburn very nicely

a 3 car Buxton is dead on

i’m in the camp of if you can’t do what you want properly, theres no point doing it.. so as i’m struggling to convince myself on the price (nearly £500 for a 3 car) i’ve been somewhat passing them by.

 

Ive been buying PKP EN57 EMUs with equal level of detail for c£300 instead, confused why Polish modelling is suddenly cheaper than UK modelling on brand new tooled units.

 

Ive now got three of these units and am considering a further two.

 

they even look a bit like a 104 at the end !

 

for the class 104 samples shown i’d probably be needing the 3 car, but taking out the centre car to run as a 2 car, though the plain blue one is more 1970’s than 1980’s….. so £1400 to remove 3x centre cars and still be 1970’s with indicator blinds seems a hard decision. Similarly mixing 1x Blue Grey with 1 plain blue to make a mis matched two car is an £800 decision, but still a 1970/1980 hybrid.

 

The livery choice/styles just dont quite work to run 104’s in pairs (except the green ones)… in the 1980’s .. so it maybe Mexican Bean and NSE are the popular choices in modern, green as they are and the blues end up a little muted.

 

I dont really remember centre cars in blue with 1st yellow stripes either?

 

For run 2, a plain blue without indicator blinds is imo the missing link… unweathered !

 

The Heljan 104 looks good, I wish it well, but Ive not decided yet if I will be in the first round of this race. If it sells out they will make more, if it doesnt…

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by adb968008

[GordonC]

I think the decorated samples look really good and it definitely fits the area and era I model, but that price is painful for something that'd be 'nice to have' rather than 'essential'. In the late 80s when DMUs were a bit mix and matched, even a driving end would be good to have to use with other units, but selling as 2 and 3 car sets gets expensive for that.

 

[Iskra]

On 13/10/2023 at 12:34, GordonC said:

I think the decorated samples look really good and it definitely fits the area and era I model, but that price is painful for something that'd be 'nice to have' rather than 'essential'. In the late 80s when DMUs were a bit mix and matched, even a driving end would be good to have to use with other units, but selling as 2 and 3 car sets gets expensive for that.

 

Agreed. I wouldn't mind a Mexican Bean one for my layout, but by comparison you can pick up Bachmann DCC Sound 150's for less than what they're asking for a DC version here and DCC Sound 158's for not much more. More era relevant- you can get Bachmann sound fitted 101's for less than this 104. I'll take the risk on not ordering one now, and might pick one up later if the price drops- the Mexican Bean 104 is a very specific model, and for me it is optional rather than a strict necessity. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Iskra

[Mad McCann]

It is a very nice model but I think this is the point where we have reached the limits of what the UK market can stand pricewise, especially with the economy in freefall.

I'd love a Mexican Bean but it's a real non-essential and £500 could provide a host of more essential models for my mainstream project.

Whilst I hope it succeeds, I'm sitting this one out for now.

 

Davy.

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, Mad McCann said:

... I think this is the point where we have reached the limits of what the UK market can stand pricewise ...

 

I couldn't agree more - these price increases are getting totally out of hand!

 

Many established UK producers' prices now seem to be exceeding European prices - though some of the newer entrants into the UK market seem not to feel the need to charge such stratospheric prices.

 

I suspect that the established producers are going to have to review their pricing after the newer entrants have been trading for a little longer!

 

CJI.

[Southernman46]

41 minutes ago, Mad McCann said:

It is a very nice model but I think this is the point where we have reached the limits of what the UK market can stand pricewise, especially with the economy in freefall.

I'd love a Mexican Bean but it's a real non-essential and £500 could provide a host of more essential models for my mainstream project.

Whilst I hope it succeeds, I'm sitting this one out for now.

 

Davy.

Indeed the intended funds for a 3-car all-blue has morphed into a Jaffa 4-CEP after recent events 😁

[GordonC]

I cant help wondering whether the tooling is overcomplicated for this in trying to cover every conceivable variation of a Class 104. Admittedly there will have been quite a lot of changes to the units over their lifespan, but it must add to the complexity and tooling/assembling costs having individual roof vents added separately to cater for normal and later smooth roof.

 

Or if underfloor motor makes things more difficult or expensive, could the old fashioned style of power bogie in the guards van have worked?

 

I just cant see how the RRP this comes out at is in any way realistic

[Legend]

47 minutes ago, GordonC said:

I cant help wondering whether the tooling is overcomplicated for this in trying to cover every conceivable variation of a Class 104. Admittedly there will have been quite a lot of changes to the units over their lifespan, but it must add to the complexity and tooling/assembling costs having individual roof vents added separately to cater for normal and later smooth roof.

 

Or if underfloor motor makes things more difficult or expensive, could the old fashioned style of power bogie in the guards van have worked?

 

I just cant see how the RRP this comes out at is in any way realistic

 

One of the complexities is the need for through electrical couplings for DCC.  I think this is whats causing a pause in multiple units being available , they are just costing too much to assemble and have become too complex with manufacturers having to make an adaquate return . I'd happily accept simpler specs (yes even a single power bogie in the guards van) if it kept costs down and increased the varieties of multiple units on offer .  

 

The Heljan 104 looks terrific , but I cant justify that money for something that will see occasional use . 

[brushman47544]

8 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

One of the complexities is the need for through electrical couplings for DCC.  I think this is whats causing a pause in multiple units being available , they are just costing too much to assemble and have become too complex with manufacturers having to make an adaquate return . I'd happily accept simpler specs (yes even a single power bogie in the guards van) if it kept costs down and increased the varieties of multiple units on offer .  

 

The Heljan 104 looks terrific , but I cant justify that money for something that will see occasional use . 

 

An alternative would be to require a separate DCC decoder per car, as did/does Bachmann for its 2-car Class 108 DMU. A decoder in any centre coach would then only need to work the lights. Whilst this might allow a slightly lower price for the basic DMU to be run on DC, how would it impact on DCC sound fitted models, which manufacturers now like to produce alongside DCC ready versions? Isn't the circuitry simpler for DCC sound with electrical couplings, so the price differential would be smaller?

[GordonC]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

One of the complexities is the need for through electrical couplings for DCC.  I think this is whats causing a pause in multiple units being available , they are just costing too much to assemble and have become too complex with manufacturers having to make an adaquate return . I'd happily accept simpler specs (yes even a single power bogie in the guards van) if it kept costs down and increased the varieties of multiple units on offer .  

 

The Heljan 104 looks terrific , but I cant justify that money for something that will see occasional use . 

 

Quite possibly, but presumably the through-wiring is to reduce the need for separate DCC chips in each vehicle so if it cost too much then presumably they'd be better just have them entirely separate vehicles and things like DCC Bachmann Mk2Fs are a less eye-watering price than the Heljan 104

[97406]

Using the latest Bachmann releases as an example, I think it likely that there will be discounts to be had which will only increase the further after the release date you get. The high pricing is speculative and a few will want the model as soon as it’s released and be prepared to pay it. However, Heljan products tend to stay in stock for a decent period at the retailers and I’ll take a punt that this happens with the 104.

[adb968008]

19 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Indeed the intended funds for a 3-car all-blue has morphed into a Jaffa 4-CEP after recent events 😁

To be fair, £2k for 3 CEPs and a TEP is also a bit too strong.

the value isnt there for me either, I still have 4 Ceps I bought for £100 per set, not £125 per coach.

 

It is what it is.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by adb968008

[E100]

The thing that gives me hope is Accurascale (in their IRM guise) can release a niche Irish 3 car DMU with through electrical couplings and all the bells and whistles for £310. Bear in mind IRM models tend to be charged at a premium compared to the Accurascale main products based on wagon prices and mark 2b/c's. Give me a mexican bean for around £250 and I'll be happy with that. No doubt this will be a very nice model but as with the Newton Chambers I'll wait for the sales and snap one or two up hopefully.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, E100 said:

Bear in mind IRM models tend to be charged at a premium compared to the Accurascale main products based on wagon prices and mark 2b/c's.

That's probably reasonable.  Sales volumes are presumably a lot lower on Irish outline, and so they would need to recover a greater proportion of the tooling cost on each item sold.

[Southernman46]

9 hours ago, E100 said:

The thing that gives me hope is Accurascale (in their IRM guise) can release a niche Irish 3 car DMU with through electrical couplings and all the bells and whistles for £310. Bear in mind IRM models tend to be charged at a premium compared to the Accurascale main products based on wagon prices and mark 2b/c's. Give me a mexican bean for around £250 and I'll be happy with that. No doubt this will be a very nice model but as with the Newton Chambers I'll wait for the sales and snap one or two up hopefully.

It will be interesting to see (and this is HUGE, HUGE speculation on my part) whether Accurascale will choose to dip into the EMU / DMU market (it seems to be they are gradually extending a rolling business plan) with maybe a DC Class 501 - it would certainly be poplar and the 57ft suburban coach moulding are already a great start on this - and what it's price to the market would be.

 

Although now planning to get a 4-CEP instead of a Class 104 - if these end up in a flash sale for £100 less at some point I'd snap one up in a instant because I can't resist the spirit of "a cold December evening in 1974 at Manchester Victoria just back from having successfully bunked round Newton Heath shed" that the model evokes in my mind.

[Iskra]

18 hours ago, GordonC said:

I cant help wondering whether the tooling is overcomplicated for this in trying to cover every conceivable variation of a Class 104. Admittedly there will have been quite a lot of changes to the units over their lifespan, but it must add to the complexity and tooling/assembling costs having individual roof vents added separately to cater for normal and later smooth roof.

 

Or if underfloor motor makes things more difficult or expensive, could the old fashioned style of power bogie in the guards van have worked?

 

I just cant see how the RRP this comes out at is in any way realistic

My theory is the price is simply hedging against UK inflation, but that does seem to be easing slowly now and pricing (niche) models highly is risky during an economic crisis. The Mexican Bean 104 is so obscure most people can happily do without and just not buy, or buy Accurascale 37’s or Mk2’s instead and get a lot more for your money, which also turned up on the West Highland Line year-round, season after season and with much greater frequency. From what I can see high-priced models aren’t doing so well if you look at various model railway retailers bargain bins, you see quite a few in there. Yes, there’s a minority with lots of cash, or those where a specific model is a centrepiece to a project so they may stump up to secure one straight away at the asking price, but if the price is too high most will leave it for the price to drop, at which point there’s always the risk of something more interesting and better value popping up and taking away that potential sale from the manufacturer. 

[NBL]

1 hour ago, Iskra said:

My theory is the price is simply hedging against UK inflation, but that does seem to be easing slowly now and pricing (niche) models highly is risky during an economic crisis. The Mexican Bean 104 is so obscure most people can happily do without and just not buy, or buy Accurascale 37’s or Mk2’s instead and get a lot more for your money, which also turned up on the West Highland Line year-round, season after season and with much greater frequency. From what I can see high-priced models aren’t doing so well if you look at various model railway retailers bargain bins, you see quite a few in there. Yes, there’s a minority with lots of cash, or those where a specific model is a centrepiece to a project so they may stump up to secure one straight away at the asking price, but if the price is too high most will leave it for the price to drop, at which point there’s always the risk of something more interesting and better value popping up and taking away that potential sale from the manufacturer. 

 

I don't know why folk are so obsessed with the price of things.  Businesses have to make money so they can reinvest to continually evolve their products, to meet our demands.   We ask for multiple variations, right down to obscure one off variations, so the tooling has to cater for all of those, or forums will rip the manufacturer a new one.  

 

Imagine the uproar if AS where to introduce a generic class 37.  We demand these variations, which pushes the price up.

 

Some manufacturers can offer what we ask for at lower prices than others, and generally older companies have higher overheads due to legacy commitments.  Unless the companies are making exactly the same model, using exactly the same process and factories, and having the exact same overheads, at he exact same time, we cannot reasonably compare pricing.

 

Heljan are a 60+ year old Danish company, and Denmark has a high wage economy.  Even though they are a small company by headcount, legacy costs have to be covered.

 

I often read that someone won't pay £500 for a model, but will happily buy 3 or 4 class 37s for example.  Whilst you may have more trains to play with, that won't get you the Class 104 that you really want, so that void still exists.

 

Things cost what they cost, because it's what they cost.  

 

 

 

[Southernman46]

yup - point well made.

Personally it's not about how much things actually cost but cashflow - I refuse to rack up long-term credit card debt generally paying the balance within 2 statements of purchase - gives me a little room to flex - so unfortunately there have been recently announced lots of very nice models due out all vying for the "model spend" and the Class 104 has dropped down the plan but as stated a flash sale will change that 👍

[Iskra]

1 hour ago, NBL said:

 

I don't know why folk are so obsessed with the price of things.  Businesses have to make money so they can reinvest to continually evolve their products, to meet our demands.   We ask for multiple variations, right down to obscure one off variations, so the tooling has to cater for all of those, or forums will rip the manufacturer a new one.  

 

Imagine the uproar if AS where to introduce a generic class 37.  We demand these variations, which pushes the price up.

 

Some manufacturers can offer what we ask for at lower prices than others, and generally older companies have higher overheads due to legacy commitments.  Unless the companies are making exactly the same model, using exactly the same process and factories, and having the exact same overheads, at he exact same time, we cannot reasonably compare pricing.

 

Heljan are a 60+ year old Danish company, and Denmark has a high wage economy.  Even though they are a small company by headcount, legacy costs have to be covered.

 

I often read that someone won't pay £500 for a model, but will happily buy 3 or 4 class 37s for example.  Whilst you may have more trains to play with, that won't get you the Class 104 that you really want, so that void still exists.

 

Things cost what they cost, because it's what they cost.  

 

 

 

Where’s the evolution in a standard DC 2-car DMU with working lights? Manufacturer’s have been churning those out for years now. And then I need to spend additionally on it to make it DCC fitted or sound, which other manufacturers are offering at the same or similar price to this DC only unit. So, yes in this instance the very high price does grate somewhat. 

 

Accurascale are providing choice, variation and value all at the same time. They are showing other manufacturers up in the value department and showing value, quality and variation can all go together. 
 

Heljan are welcome to charge what they like, but if nobody buys them, where does that leave them? …discounting and wiping out their fat margin anyway on the rest of the stock. You could argue revenue wise, it’s the same financial result as selling more with an initially lower price and therefore profit margin, but one looks a lot better than the other on the manufacturer. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Iskra

[NBL]

39 minutes ago, Iskra said:

Where’s the evolution in a standard DC 2-car DMU with working lights? Manufacturer’s have been churning those out for years now. And then I need to spend additionally on it to make it DCC fitted or sound, which other manufacturers are offering at the same or similar price to this DC only unit. So, yes in this instance the very high price does grate somewhat. 

 

Accurascale are providing choice, variation and value all at the same time. They are showing other manufacturers up in the value department and showing value, quality and variation can all go together. 
 

Heljan are welcome to charge what they like, but if nobody buys them, where does that leave them? …discounting and wiping out their fat margin anyway on the rest of the stock. You could argue revenue wise, it’s the same financial result as selling more with an initially lower price and therefore profit margin, but one looks a lot better than the other on the manufacturer. 

How do you know Heljan make a fat margin?  Do you know Heljan's overheads? 

 

Are Accurascale ripping folk off with their 7mm Ruston at £230 Vs Heljans 7mm Ruston at £170?  Different locos but both small 4 wheel shunters.

 

It is a high price I agree, it's down to how we perceive value.  If I want a 104 it's the best route for the finish, reliability and availablity that I want. 

 

I can always source a kit from Silver Fox or track down a Craftsman conversion kit, but it would be very compromised in finish and detail, and would most probably cost more in total than RTR.