Heljan announce Class 104 DMU in OO gauge

[MJI]

AS I would like the WR 2 car, I am going to buy a S/H Hornby 110 and use Ironmink cab fronts and underframe bits.

[dj_crisp]

2 hours ago, Iskra said:

Where’s the evolution in a standard DC 2-car DMU with working lights? Manufacturer’s have been churning those out for years now. And then I need to spend additionally on it to make it DCC fitted or sound, which other manufacturers are offering at the same or similar price to this DC only unit. So, yes in this instance the very high price does grate somewhat. 

 

Accurascale are providing choice, variation and value all at the same time. They are showing other manufacturers up in the value department and showing value, quality and variation can all go together. 
 

Heljan are welcome to charge what they like, but if nobody buys them, where does that leave them? …discounting and wiping out their fat margin anyway on the rest of the stock. You could argue revenue wise, it’s the same financial result as selling more with an initially lower price and therefore profit margin, but one looks a lot better than the other on the manufacturer. 

 

A/S haven't (yet) produced a UK outline DMU so I don't think you can really compare. I hope they do though!

 

Also I'd consider A/S in the earlier phase of a startup company.... done great with some low hanging fruit picked, got some buzz about it and trying to expand from a niche company to something more mainstream. When they do it'll be interesting to see pricing then and what they focus on.

 

Returning to the 104... its clearly more niche than mainstream locos so I would expect shorter runs and a higher price to achieve a decent return on the tooling. So far i think it looks great and hopefully its a success so other DMUs are considered! Looking forward to seeing it.

[08221]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

AS I would like the WR 2 car, I am going to buy a S/H Hornby 110 and use Ironmink cab fronts and underframe bits.

Silverfox also do the cab fronts for £12 each (Bottom of this page - http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/british-rail-class-104-brcw-unit/)

 

 

[GordonC]

36 minutes ago, dj_crisp said:

 

A/S haven't (yet) produced a UK outline DMU so I don't think you can really compare. I hope they do though!

 

Also I'd consider A/S in the earlier phase of a startup company.... done great with some low hanging fruit picked, got some buzz about it and trying to expand from a niche company to something more mainstream. When they do it'll be interesting to see pricing then and what they focus on.

 

Returning to the 104... its clearly more niche than mainstream locos so I would expect shorter runs and a higher price to achieve a decent return on the tooling. So far i think it looks great and hopefully its a success so other DMUs are considered! Looking forward to seeing it.

 

But mainstream locos are probably getting more niche as well as their cost, detail and accuracy increases and there must be lower production run volumes to spread development cost over too while new releases have to compete with existing older models out on the market.

 

While we're probably more likely to buy multiple locos in different liveries and numbers/names the potential for sales of a Class 104 would have to be significant even if more modellers just buy one livery when its not been available RTR before.

 

Personally I'd probably feel more attachment to locos by number/name/depot so I might hold out for a Scottish large logo example rather than just any old one. Whereas a Class 104 is much more generic to me - almost like in the background - you'd notice its there or not, but not details about it.

Edited November 9, 2023 by GordonC

[dj_crisp]

18 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

But mainstream locos are probably getting more niche as well as their cost, detail and accuracy increases and there must be lower production run volumes to spread development cost over too while new releases have to compete with existing older models out on the market.

 

While we're probably more likely to buy multiple locos in different liveries and numbers/names the potential for sales of a Class 104 would have to be significant even if more modellers just buy one livery when its not been available RTR before.

 

Personally I'd probably feel more attachment to locos by number/name/depot so I might hold out for a Scottish large logo example rather than just any old one. Whereas a Class 104 is much more generic to me - almost like in the background - you'd notice its there or not, but not details about it.

 

Yeah I agree.... which is kind of the point I was trying to make that future margins will be more challenging after the excitement of a new versions of each model.

 

However (and i know Im in the minority) I've found DMUs and in particular 1st gen examples way more interesting to model than locos but each to their own eh 😉

[Southernman46]

1 hour ago, dj_crisp said:

 

Yeah I agree.... which is kind of the point I was trying to make that future margins will be more challenging after the excitement of a new versions of each model.

 

However (and i know Im in the minority) I've found DMUs and in particular 1st gen examples way more interesting to model than locos but each to their own eh 😉

I model Winchester in Hampshire in the 70's and often the Soton - Alton services are not a Class 205 DEMU at all but a 101, 108 or even a Derby lightweight so the 104 will fit right in - so can't wait for the Blue 117 and eventually when someone gets the balls to do it a Class 120 for the Soton - Newbury service over the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton which remained open as did the Alton line - s'my railway !😁

[MJI]

4 hours ago, 08221 said:

Silverfox also do the cab fronts for £12 each (Bottom of this page - http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/british-rail-class-104-brcw-unit/)

 

 

I have a resin printer

[MJI]

2 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

I model Winchester in Hampshire in the 70's and often the Soton - Alton services are not a Class 205 DEMU at all but a 101, 108 or even a Derby lightweight so the 104 will fit right in - so can't wait for the Blue 117 and eventually when someone gets the balls to do it a Class 120 for the Soton - Newbury service over the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton which remained open as did the Alton line - s'my railway !😁

120, been waiting 40 years so given up.

 

I need to finish glazing mine

[wombatofludham]

3 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

However (and i know Im in the minority) I've found DMUs and in particular 1st gen examples way more interesting to model than locos but each to their own eh 😉

I'm also a fart cart fiend.  I'm looking forward to the 104, plus any others companies want to throw at me.  The 116 and 120 would certainly tempt me.

You can never have too many DMUs.

[dj_crisp]

18 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

I'm also a fart cart fiend.  I'm looking forward to the 104, plus any others companies want to throw at me.  The 116 and 120 would certainly tempt me.

You can never have too many DMUs.

 

I like your final statement :)

 

I fully expected Bachmann to announce a 116 as I'm just about to finish mine! 

 

I rather like the 104s near the end of their time... mixed up in hybrid formations.  From flickr... a blue one with NSE flashes with a 101. Great stuff

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

 

I like your final statement :)

 

I fully expected Bachmann to announce a 116 as I'm just about to finish mine! 

 

I rather like the 104s near the end of their time... mixed up in hybrid formations.  From flickr... a blue one with NSE flashes with a 101. Great stuff

 

 

 

 

I like the GB sticker too..

[Legend]

If you really want one you'll get one .

 

For me its about value for money . I've just bought a Mac Book Air for considerably more than the cost of a 104 , but I will use it every day for communications and maybe even Railway Simulator , so for me thats value for money . However £500 for a dmu that will be boxed up the loft and maybe run every 6 months or so - not really value for money . I get that there's a joy of ownership  but I cant justify it .

 

Everyone's different though and Heljan must be betting there are enough who really want one . It is quite a widespread unit , so they maybe correct 

[ColinK]

I’d been after a 104 for years as I was brought up by the Buxton line.   Eventually I ordered a 120 and a 104 from Silver Fox.  A few days later Heljan announced their 104, so I cancelled the Silver Fox one.  I still got the 120 though and it’s very nice. 
 

The model shop I use said they have received loads of orders for the Heljan 104, so hopefully it will be a success.  If it is it might encourage them to make a 120.

[brushman47544]

14 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

I fully expected Bachmann to announce a 116 as I'm just about to finish mine! 

 

19 minutes ago, ColinK said:

The model shop I use said they have received loads of orders for the Heljan 104, so hopefully it will be a success.  If it is it might encourage them to make a 120.

 

Class 116s and 120s say pretty widespread use across the different regions, so it surprised me that Bachmann went for the Class 117 and Heljan for the Class 104, which were both much more restricted in terms of sphere of operations. I too hope the Class 104 does well at these prices to encourage other DMUs to be produced, but we shall see. We still haven't seen a second batch of 117s but we have seen plenty of CEP/BEP variants from Bachmann so maybe these higher prices are not seen by manufacturers as a barrier to sales. Time will tell...

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

 

 

Class 116s and 120s say pretty widespread use across the different regions, so it surprised me that Bachmann went for the Class 117 and Heljan for the Class 104, which were both much more restricted in terms of sphere of operations. I too hope the Class 104 does well at these prices to encourage other DMUs to be produced, but we shall see. We still haven't seen a second batch of 117s but we have seen plenty of CEP/BEP variants from Bachmann so maybe these higher prices are not seen by manufacturers as a barrier to sales. Time will tell...

To be fair the 104 was a widespread unit, running in Scotland, the North East, the Midlands, East Anglia and the South East at different points in their long career as well as elsewhere on excursion trains.  Although most associate them with the Manchester area, they did start life on West Coast locals in the Midlands and North Staffs pre electrification, and Tyneside, and in NSE use even managed to get onto the stabiliser rail network and made occasional runs out of Paddington before withdrawal.

[MJI]

28 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

To be fair the 104 was a widespread unit, running in Scotland, the North East, the Midlands, East Anglia and the South East at different points in their long career as well as elsewhere on excursion trains.  Although most associate them with the Manchester area, they did start life on West Coast locals in the Midlands and North Staffs pre electrification, and Tyneside, and in NSE use even managed to get onto the stabiliser rail network and made occasional runs out of Paddington before withdrawal.

 

A saw a pair at Gloucester once.

[aureol40012]

Was just able to order the 3 car white lined br blue version for £367 from RMS using the 11% off everything code they sent to subscribers today as it covers pre-orders too…..  

[finelines]

I was exited by the news that I could get a white stripe 104 until I read the price. I rode on them to Manchester and back for a good few years. The best ride I had was when our 6 car pair had failed and they put a class 40 on the front. Went like a rocket!

[andyman7]

I think these are looking good! (Photo from Warley)

[woodenhead]

These rather complete the stock required to do a nice Manchester layout Piccadilly or Victoria side, throw in 101, 105, 108 and venerable 110s for a half decent DMU set plus your loco hauled stuff.

[New Haven Neil]

The glazing on those is fantastic.

[97406]

It looks great. Brings back memories of the Buxton line or the odd turn on the Manchester Oxford Road to Chester service. 

[woodenhead]

Of course we’re still awaiting any first generation overhead electric units in any voltage combo. 🤪

[aureol40012]

On 28/11/2023 at 19:20, andyman7 said:

I think these are looking good! (Photo from Warley)

 

Utter rubbish, it’s not got the cab front end dents they all had ;-)

[dj_crisp]

On 28/11/2023 at 20:07, New Haven Neil said:

The glazing on those is fantastic.

 

Totally agree. The front looks brilliant