Hornby Announce L&MR 0-4-2 "Lion"?

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

I notice that in the Hornby ad they mention the locomotive being used in the 20's, 50's and 70's. No mention of the Titfield Thunderbolt.

Hmmm I wonder why? 

[Metr0Land]

But the Titfield Thunderbolt was 1953....

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

I notice that in the Hornby ad they mention the locomotive being used in the 20's, 50's and 70's. 

 

1920s? 1930s surely; following the L&M centenary, there were a number* of film appearances.

 

*A number that may be 1 or possibly 2.

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

1920s? 1930s surely; following the L&M centenary, there were a number* of film appearances.

 

*A number that may be 1 or possibly 2.

Wasn't it present at the S&D centenary in 1925?

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Wasn't it present at the S&D centenary in 1925?

 

Not as far as I can find out. See the listing in this article which seems to be complete.

 

The time line doesn't fit. According to Wikipedia: "It was "rediscovered" in 1923 and then rescued by members of the Liverpool Engineering Society in 1928 when it was replaced by an electric pump, and then renovated by Crewe works." and "Lion took part in the LMR centenary celebrations in 1930 and the London and Birmingham Railway centenary in 1938."

 

 

[mdvle]

On 16/12/2021 at 09:45, adb968008 said:

Imo they’d be better giving it up and going for Locomotion No1, given how long delays are, and 2025 being the SDR bi-centennial anniversary…though they’ve been beaten on the Chaldron too.

 

While I agree with you, I can't help but wonder if the timing of the Rapido announcement is because someone thinks that Hornby is going to announce their version of Lion in January.

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

While I agree with you, I can't help but wonder if the timing of the Rapido announcement is because someone thinks that Hornby is going to announce their version of Lion in January.

They already have announced it (on the first page of this thread…)

 

 

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

Hornby found out someone had already acquired the rights for the Titfield Thunderbolt, got worried about it and made a very knee-jerk announcement that they were planning to make a Lion hoping to steal a march on whichever company were also planning too (8th March). You can tell how rushed it was by the fact there was no info, no artwork, nothing. That then forced Rapido's hand in making their initial announcement of the Titfield range early (9th March) complete with beautifully done custom artwork showing they had been planning the project for a good while. But they still held back the details until the 1st of April (which was when they were going to fully announce) because in true Rapido sense of humour they knew loads of people would think it's a joke, and even timed it to go live at 12 when April Fools day technically ends. Rapido went into quite a lot of detail about the situation in one of their newsletters around the time.

 

It's very obvious both companies had been working on their respective ideas for a long time and this does not seem to be one of those examples of one company hearing an announcement and then trying to beat the other out of spite, this is just a case of bad luck. However it seems obvious that Hornby were nowhere near as ready as Rapido were to announce, and I see nothing in Rapido's actions that indicate they are playing into the tit-for-tat game that is so sadly being played out across the hobby these days.

 

Edit: Link to said newsletter: https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-UK-News---No--3.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=sGWrBCZGI0M

Edited December 18, 2021 by Obsidian Quarry

[BlueLightning]

10 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

While I agree with you, I can't help but wonder if the timing of the Rapido announcement is because someone thinks that Hornby is going to announce their version of Lion in January.

 

Yes........ Rapido, who have been at it long enough to have gotten the right to the Titfield Thunderbolt, which Hornby didn't because Rapido already had them are making announcement just in case Hornby announce something that they have already announced.............

 

Gonna be honest here, I'm not sure I follow the logic

[The Stationmaster]

41 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Hornby found out someone had already acquired the rights for the Titfield Thunderbolt, got worried about it and made a very knee-jerk announcement that they were planning to make a Lion hoping to steal a march on whichever company were also planning too (8th March). You can tell how rushed it was by the fact there was no info, no artwork, nothing. That then forced Rapido's hand in making their initial announcement of the Titfield range early (9th March) complete with beautifully done custom artwork showing they had been planning the project for a good while. But they still held back the details until the 1st of April (which was when they were going to fully announce) because in true Rapido sense of humour they knew loads of people would think it's a joke, and even timed it to go live at 12 when April Fools day technically ends. Rapido went into quite a lot of detail about the situation in one of their newsletters around the time.

 

It's very obvious both companies had been working on their respective ideas for a long time and this does not seem to be one of those examples of one company hearing an announcement and then trying to beat the other out of spite, this is just a case of bad luck. However it seems obvious that Hornby were nowhere near as ready as Rapido were to announce, and I see nothing in Rapido's actions that indicate they are playing into the tit-for-tat game that is so sadly being played out across the hobby these days.

 

Edit: Link to said newsletter: https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-UK-News---No--3.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=sGWrBCZGI0M

I doubt if up to that point Hornby had actually given the project much in the way of serious attention but it was somewhere on their 'to do' list.  Simple fact was that they were beaten to the draw by Rapido so once they had an inkling of what was going on they responded by rushing out a cobbled together announcement.  

 

If there had been any serious planning on their part they would have been going after the rights from Canal Plus more than a year previously but they didn't - simple as that; they missed the boat.

[PhilJ W]

Seemingly Hornby are becoming to model railways like Red Bull are to F1.

[Steamport Southport]

On 16/12/2021 at 14:45, adb968008 said:

Imo they’d be better giving it up and going for Locomotion No1, given how long delays are, and 2025 being the SDR bi-centennial anniversary…though they’ve been beaten on the Chaldron too.

 

To me, Lion is niche, the joe on the high st doesn't know it, its not Rocket. So the buyer is one who appreciates it, and Rapido may win opinion there.

 

Yet over 3 million people a year see it!

 

Which is more than visit the NRM or any of the heritage railways. 

 

 

Jason

[Hroth]

I don't understand why people keep suggesting that Hornby do Locomotion. The technical problems associated with producing a small bodied loco with complex motion work will be major, and its fragility would be epic.

 

Lion also matches (to some extent) the coaches and wagons produced for Rocket, which Locomotion would not.  Following Lion, what "should" be attempted would either be a Planet or a Patentee, I would prefer the latter as it is a proper, sensible passenger loco, and it would be more or less contemporary with Lion.

 

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

They already have announced it (on the first page of this thread…)

 

 

 

 

Obviously aware of that, what I was referring to was an official announcement with a price and an actual ability to order it - one obviously wants to be first to collect actual orders, particularly when going up against Hornby.

[PhilJ W]

48 minutes ago, Hroth said:

I don't understand why people keep suggesting that Hornby do Locomotion. The technical problems associated with producing a small bodied loco with complex motion work will be major, and its fragility would be epic.

 

Lion also matches (to some extent) the coaches and wagons produced for Rocket, which Locomotion would not.  Following Lion, what "should" be attempted would either be a Planet or a Patentee, I would prefer the latter as it is a proper, sensible passenger loco, and it would be more or less contemporary with Lion.

 

There's a couple of other locomotives of the same era that they could model, the Bury 0-4-0 for example.

 

[Dana Ashdown]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

Following Lion, what "should" be attempted would either be a Planet or a Patentee, I would prefer the latter as it is a proper, sensible passenger loco, and it would be more or less contemporary with Lion.

 

I would suggest that both a Planet and a Patentee should be produced. The Patentee was essentially an enlarged Planet, so there is something in common so far as the chassis goes (save for the trailing wheels on the Patentee).

 

However, if I could only have one, it would probably be a Patentee, as it was the basis for a number of subsequent designs. Many would probably buy one just to use the chassis for their own engines.

[The Johnster]

Rocket/Planet/Patentee represent a clear line of development, with Rocket introducing the flued bolier, Planet the smokebox and inside cylinder arrangement, and Patentee, at which point Stephenson had decreed that the best number of wheels for a locomotive was six for stability and axle loading, the firebox between the middle and rear axles.  This arrangement set that pattern for the next 50 years, and locomotives builr to it were among the last steam engines produced commercially in the UK.  Plate frames, inside cylinders, 2-2-2 with wheels as big as possible for fast passenger work, 2-4-0 for slower passenger and fast goods/parcels, and 0-6-0 for goods, smaller wheeled version for mineral work. 

 

North Star was fundamentally a Patentee, and an evolution can be traced from it though Fire Fly and Iron Duke to Churchward's Saints, the precursor of most 20th century 2 outside cylindered engines, especially the 4-6-0s.  The placing of the firebox between the centre and trailing axles of the locomotives was  essential to the classic British 4-4-0, and repeated in the later 4-6-0s, only to be dispensed with by Atlantics and Pacifics for the top link passenger jobs on some railways later, as the bigger boilers needed to haul the increased loads of the 20th century needed bigger, fatter, fireboxes. an American idea originally.  Jenny Lind, not far off a standard passenger design for some time in the 1850s and 60s, was pretty much a Patentee as well. 

 

All 3 of the original L&M designs are well worthy of RTR models; the only thing like them for many years has been the old Triang Rocket and Trix's Der Adler.  I would contend that there is a market for slightly later period 1 RTR, the 1850s, with generic Jennys, Sharpies, Burys, Cramptons, Longboilers, etc., and generic rolling stock.  The short trains and their ability to negotiate setrack would appeal to space-starved modellers, and the liveries were colourful and attactive.  There is less need to become acquainted with signalling, a blind spot for many, and there were more open wagons so you could see the loads more easily.   

[PhilJ W]

We now have 'generic' four and six wheel carriages so why not a generic pre-1850's locomotive?

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

There's a couple of other locomotives of the same era that they could model, the Bury 0-4-0 for example.

 

 

 

... or for GWR adherents, Tiny...

 

 

 

Just wait for the queries as to whether is can be modified to EM/P4

 

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

We now have 'generic' four and six wheel carriages so why not a generic pre-1850's locomotive?

Well, we don't have generic 1850s four or six wheel carriages, which tended to be matchboarded and not panelled, and on shorter wheelbases.  On the GW Broad Gauge, some vehicles were wider than they were long...

[asmay2002]

19 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

We now have 'generic' four and six wheel carriages so why not a generic pre-1850's locomotive?

Back in the 1840s some of the loco builders were building standard types for several companies, the E B Wilson "Jenny Lind" or the Sharp, Roberts 2-2-2 types for example.

[JSpencer]

On 18/12/2021 at 16:17, PhilJ W said:

There's a couple of other locomotives of the same era that they could model, the Bury 0-4-0 for example.

 

The splashers promise to be fun for any RTR model in OO gauge. But I would buy one.

[adb968008]

On 18/12/2021 at 15:08, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yet over 3 million people a year see it!

 

Which is more than visit the NRM or any of the heritage railways. 

 

 

Jason

Try it as a question on Family Fortunes…

 

i’ll bet a pint on it, that in their survey it doesnt make the top ten…

 

i’d wager you get Flying Scotsman, Mallard, Rocket, HST.. then after that you’d struggle with generationals saying things like Royal Scot, Bullet Train, Virgin Trains, Azuma, British Rail etc.

 

It might get 3mn in the Museum, how many stop, look, read and think I want a model of it ?..

 

To a normal.. its no different to any other ancient steam loco, so its market appeal are the likes of more understanding modellers, many of whom are very informed and hence will look at Rapido... at £179 Rapido has left some gap for Hornby to play in… in many ways its no different to a Ruston+Wagon, so its premium priced, as was Rocket… they might just go for a £120 version like they did with the 66’s, Terriers etc and rush it through at a price.

Edited December 22, 2021 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

What is the most famous steam loco in the world?  Ask in any bar, restaurant, or on on the Clapham omnibus and you will get a variety of answers.  The Flying Scot, Flying Scotchman, Royal Scotsman, Royal Scot (of course), or any other permutation you can think of.  What's it famous for?  Er, dunno, is it the fastest or something...

 

Name any other White Star liner besides Titanic will get you Queen Mary, Lusitania, Cutty Sark, Bismark, whatever.  People don't know, don't care, and aren't interested.  Swings and roundabouts horses for courses; I've never heard of anyone in the top 20, and only know a handful of film stars.  Don't know, don't care, not interested, same with football. soap opreras. or Britain's Got Max Factor Celebrity Island or whatever it/they is/are.

 

Does it matter?  Well, it does to us, but then, to paraphrase Mandy, it would, wouldn't it?  Beyond that, probably not, but it is probably good that there are enthusiasts for all sorts of different subjects and things, so that some knowledge of what they used to be is maintained. 

 

Who knows what gutta-percha is?  Who wots now where Weyland's bones lie?  Who put the bop in the bop shewop dewop?

[The Stationmaster]

A little tale from a visit to the NRM a good many years ago when a member of the curating staff pointed out a certain rather well known A4 complete with a 'Flying Scotsman' LNER style headboard.  apparently a large number of visitors walked and went away telling each other how wonderful it was to see "flying Scotsman' in the museum.  Leaves me wondering why they spent so much on buying the real one when the punters were already quite happy to have seen it 

 

As it happens I do know where Wayland's bones are reputed to be having been there on a couple of occasions. (just thought you'd like to know) but Hornby will no doubt carry on with getting their 'Lion' into production (I understand from a tv show that the correct expression is 'let's press the button' - presumably on a keyboard as part of an email to somebody?).  But I wonder what they will call it?  Will it be Tiger or will it have to be anonymous to keep those French chappies happy and stay clear of the CJEU or arguments over fishing boats and lambs ?   And will it ever go anywhere near Mallingford arriving from the wrong direction or will it have to settle for arriving at Bristol Temple Meads from the right direction?  Maybe all will be revealed in the New Year?  (But maybe it won't - having in the past predicted its arrival for a previous New Year?)