KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[Colin_McLeod]

Can't clearly see the working valve gear in that video.  I did ask KR Models if they could do a video with a light shining on the valve gear so that we could see it clearly. No response to date.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Can't clearly see the working valve gear in that video.  I did ask KR Models if they could do a video with a light shining on the valve gear so that we could see it clearly. No response to date.

It is not easy to see but in one sequence the valve rod (and obviously the radius rod attached to it) is definitely not moving as was the case in the video posted by Jenny.  In fact they appear, in some far as they can be seen, to be a once piece plastic moulding.

 

I agree with you regarding lack of a good view of the motion - for example we can't see (or rather I can't see) if the expansion link is moving in any of the videos I have seen of the engine moving.

 

The Fleischman T3 s does indeed have working Gooch valvegear - looks to be wholly metal components but the radius rod has the advantage of being much shorter than the radius rod on Bellerophon which no doubt helps considerably.  Interestingly the eccentrics also appear to be correctly modelled whereas they look to be a one piece plastic moulding on the KR model.

 

This should link to a video of the Fleischman model -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZpZovoX_g

 

This video shows the HO version of the Marklin T3 with a broadly similar level of working valvegear to the Fleischman model

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJVHocCDxmg

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[rope runner]

6 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Can't clearly see the working valve gear in that video.  I did ask KR Models if they could do a video with a light shining on the valve gear so that we could see it clearly. No response to date.

Indeed, can't see much clearly with the shaky camera...

 

Unusual not to have some good quality EP photos for comment or to encourage pre-orders.

 

Paul A. 

[sparaxis]

Although the valve gear is not fully functional, in the real world on a layout it is probably not a big deal. (I can think of a few recent models with bright red inside valve gear that NEVER moves.) For example, many models have their Walschaerts valve gear in mid gear, so the valve rod barely moves if at all. The fascinating thing with Stephenson valve gear, or Allan in the case of the T3, is the way the rods move, with respect to each other. But, and this is a big but, the motion of the gear is probably exaggerated compared to the amount of travel on the prototype.  I have a Tillig narrow gauge loco where the rods and link are a single piece and they look ok when on the layout as the travel is limited. It won't stop me considering a Bellerophon. What probably will is that I have way too many small industrials already.

[BVMR21]

2 hours ago, sparaxis said:

What probably will is that I have way too many small industrials already.

Is there a such thing as too many industrials?

[No Decorum]

12 hours ago, BVMR21 said:

Is there a such thing as too many industrials?

There is such a thing as one too many.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, sparaxis said:

Although the valve gear is not fully functional, in the real world on a layout it is probably not a big deal. (I can think of a few recent models with bright red inside valve gear that NEVER moves.) For example, many models have their Walschaerts valve gear in mid gear, so the valve rod barely moves if at all. The fascinating thing with Stephenson valve gear, or Allan in the case of the T3, is the way the rods move, with respect to each other. But, and this is a big but, the motion of the gear is probably exaggerated compared to the amount of travel on the prototype.  I have a Tillig narrow gauge loco where the rods and link are a single piece and they look ok when on the layout as the travel is limited. It won't stop me considering a Bellerophon. What probably will is that I have way too many small industrials already.

Quite agree in many respects however that is not the point.  If a manufacturer claims - as appears to be the case here - that a model has working valvegear and it doesn't have it then some potential customers could well say that they are being misled by incorrect information. 

[Pteremy]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Quite agree in many respects however that is not the point.  If a manufacturer claims - as appears to be the case here - that a model has working valvegear and it doesn't have it then some potential customers could well say that they are being misled by incorrect information. 

 

Yes. It must reflect a lack of confidence about the reaction they will get to any change in specification. And yet if they said '..we had planned to do X but during development found this would not work so have compromised by doing Y..' I would have thought that there may or may not be much disappointment to the change but a lot more respect for the approach being taken.

[BVMR21]

The artwork for Bellerophon has been shown on Facebook (attached below). Also it seems there’s a hint that if there’s a second run the other 5 members could be done.

[Ruston]

On 31/12/2022 at 12:09, The Stationmaster said:

It is not easy to see but in one sequence the valve rod (and obviously the radius rod attached to it) is definitely not moving as was the case in the video posted by Jenny.  In fact they appear, in some far as they can be seen, to be a once piece plastic moulding.

There's no way that it can work. There is no actual valve rod into the valve chest. Look back at the photos that AY posted and you'll see that on both sides of the model, it stops well short of the valve chest. There is also no physical connection between the radius rod and the expansion link. But then the sample model is such a mess that it's anyone's guess as to what works, what doesn't work and what's missing because it's fallen off and what's missing because they never put it on in the first place. It's a shambles!

[Colin_McLeod]

I took the opportunity to again ask the valve gear question on the KR Models Facebook page and they replied that "it all works".

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you Colin - that's very interesting.  If it is correct that implies that the model we have seen so far are not the final production version (I think it was in any case described as an EP so we know that things can change).

 

As far as what we have seen - in stills and video - is concerned it is obvious to me that the valve gear cannot work.  The radius rod - a long and spindly thing on 'Bellerophon' so no doubt difficult to scale down - appears to be part of a black plastic moulding which also incorporates a representation of the valve rod.  As a one piece moulding neither looks very likely to move.  Similarly the connections between the eccentrics and the expansion link also appears to be a one piece moulding without the eccentrics being separate or movable.  I have not been able to clearly see the expansion link so I can't say one way or the other whether or not it moves.  

 

Thus I am commenting on the evidence we have so far seen.  But, I repeat, it is an EP and things can, and often do, change between that stage and the finalised production model.  Overall the model looks fairly good and if KR have managed to get the factory to incorporate working valvegear into such a small 00 r-t-r model with an awkward layout of valvegear the designer and factory will deserve a mighty round of applause.  Also some good marks for KR for pushing for it at what looks like a reasonable price for such a level of mechanical sophistication.

 

But to get to that level there is going to be an a lot of work still to do on this model.   I recall too a comment I made much earlier in its development about that long radius rod and trying to make it workable so I look forward to seeing how that will be done.

[NHY 581]

On 31/12/2022 at 08:04, BVMR21 said:

 

 

 

 

For me this is an attractive loco and one which I'd like to have but...........

 

Whilst I know this is the 1st EP, the running leaves a lot to be desired. This video may demonstrate the progress of the project but I don't think it does it any favours. Setting aside the debate of how prototypical  the valve gear is or isn't, this appears not to be a smooth runnning loco. There appears to be a tightspot, causing the loco to hunt a little as it moves. It is a tad erratic. 

However, my main concern is the slow speed running which this video does nothing to address. 

This loco will be used primarily to shunt therefore how it starts, slows and stops is critical. If it cannot smoothly, gradually pull away or come to a halt then it is simply not good enough. 

This video has, for me at least,  had the opposite effect to perhaps that which was intended. Far from persuading me to invest, it has made me decide to stay away from this loco. 

That can of course change. I said I find this loco attractive and I do. If future pre-productions samples or  the production locos themselves run as is reasonable to expect a small industrial loco to run, then I'm in. 

 

But for now, I think not. 

 

Rob. 

[BVMR21]

I think as it’s the first EP there is some legroom for difficulties with a model, hopefully they should fix most, if not all, of the issues that the EP has had, the aspect of running quality, whilst important, I would argue could be difficult to portray at this stage, now I’m not saying it’s perfect, I doubt it’ll compete with the likes of the Planet Industrials Victory in terms of running quality but it does seem good enough at this stage in development whereby small changes can be accomplished with relatively little cost and timeline implications.

[MikeParkin65]

14 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

For me this is an attractive loco and one which I'd like to have but...........

 

Whilst I know this is the 1st EP, the running leaves a lot to be desired. This video may demonstrate the progress of the project but I don't think it does it any favours. Setting aside the debate of how prototypical  the valve gear is or isn't, this appears not to be a smooth runnning loco. There appears to be a tightspot, causing the loco to hunt a little as it moves. It is a tad erratic. 

However, my main concern is the slow speed running which this video does nothing to address. 

This loco will be used primarily to shunt therefore how it starts, slows and stops is critical. If it cannot smoothly, gradually pull away or come to a halt then it is simply not good enough. 

This video has, for me at least,  had the opposite effect to perhaps that which was intended. Far from persuading me to invest, it has made me decide to stay away from this loco. 

That can of course change. I said I find this loco attractive and I do. If future pre-productions samples or  the production locos themselves run as is reasonable to expect a small industrial loco to run, then I'm in. 

 

But for now, I think not. 

 

Rob. 

Its rare for any model to appear to run smoothly on YouTube especially if under digital control. I haven't got a technical explanation but i wonder if its the same as the LED's appear to flicker on the same medium when to the naked eye they appear steady? I say this because in context I'd say the model filmed is as good as any I've seen in terms of smoothness though it did seem to have squeak which might suggest a tight spot.

 

Agree I'd like to see slow speed control demonstrated but for a pre production EP I thought running quality was decent.

[NHY 581]

There are of course other viewpoints and as I said in my original post above, I understand this is a first EP. 

If this bit of footage was meant to demonstrate progress, I accept that it does. Here we have a running EP of the loco.  But, for whatever reason it does not demonstrate a smooth running loco. When Planet Industries put out footage of their Kerr Stuart, they demonstrated it's ability to run slowly and smoothly. I believe it is fair to draw comparison between locos destined for similar use. 

In addition, if we are saying KRM's video shows a loco that runs well enough....for now, the danger is that this gets taken as"runs well enough". 

 

I maintain it doesn't.  Perhaps harsh at this early stage but based on KRM's own footage, again it doesn't and I base my decision to buy one of these on all available information. 

 

Therefore, I will not be commiting to one of these at this stage. Once the smooth, slow running qualities of the production models become apparent then this will undoubtedly change. 

 

Rob. 

[Schooner]

7 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Perhaps harsh at this early stage

Of course, it is a little harsh but entirely fair. As long as one remains open to adapting that view as more information becomes available then it's a very reasonable position to hold.

 

I suppose the point is nobody must - or should - pay for a product before they've enough information to make a sound decision. It's a shame, but the battered and bruised Belle EP is almost worse than no public EP at all. KR have proven they can do unusual mechanisms with the Shay, and well-received models with the GT3 but I'm still waiting to see evidence of those traits combined in an aesthetically pleasing Victorian 0-6-0T package...

 

For what it's worth, KR are up against Rapido and Dapol for my money. They need to deliver competitive comms about a competitive product if they want to gain and maintain my commitment through the development process. They've not been successful...yet...

[AY Mod]

32 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

There are of course other viewpoints and as I said in my original post above, I understand this is a first EP. 

If this bit of footage was meant to demonstrate progress, I accept that it does. Here we have a running EP of the loco.  But, for whatever reason it does not demonstrate a smooth running loco. When Planet Industries put out footage of their Kerr Stuart, they demonstrated it's ability to run slowly and smoothly. I believe it is fair to draw comparison between locos destined for similar use. 

In addition, if we are saying KRM's video shows a loco that runs well enough....for now, the danger is that this gets taken as"runs well enough". 

 

I maintain it doesn't.  Perhaps harsh at this early stage but based on KRM's own footage, again it doesn't and I base my decision to buy one of these on all available information. 

 

Therefore, I will not be commiting to one of these at this stage. Once the smooth, slow running qualities of the production models become apparent then this will undoubtedly change. 

 

Rob. 

 

I'd specifically mentioned images before but the point I made is pertinent to video too of course.

 

 

I'll wait until there's better evidence one way or the other and when Rails are accepting orders but, for me, it's not right enough yet.

[Ruston]

This is the only one of KR's models that interests me at all and I have to say that neither the video or photos of the sample have convinced me to part with my cash. As I said in my previous post, the sample as a shambles! People say that we should give a bit of leeway because it is a sample, but why does it have to look as if someone's dismantled it, attempted to put it back together and then thrown it at a wall in frustration?

Other companies, such as Dapol and Rapido, put out engineering samples, but they don't have bits hanging off, misaligned and with trapped wires hanging out. In the case of these other companies it isn't quite so important as images of samples are really nothing more than a courtesy and an appetiser; you can wait until the thing is a finished product and go into a shop and inspect it for yourself, before parting with your cash. In the case of KR, you're expected to pay upfront for a model and so we deserve better than an amateur video and photos of a wreck. A decent video and some good quality photos of the sample, before it was smashed, would have gone a long way to helping to sell the models, I'm sure. It would have answered the valve gear question, for one thing.

 

I will wait until I can see the finished product and judge for myself and if that means I miss out then so be it. There are plenty of other people wanting to part me from my money and so model railway companies are well down the food chain. I can live without a OO model of Bellerophon but not without gas, electricity and water, so if you want my money, I want to see something far better than what's been shown so far.

 

[john new]

This has the KR logo etc., on it so is presumably a film of their’s which you would expect to have been filmed BEFORE going out to reviewers. I would like one BUT, the pipe on the boiler is shown bent and the black valve gear looks static. Unless things improve when they show the next EP I think I will consider cancelling my expression of interest etc. I don’t mind moulded details provided if it is supposed to be straight it isn’t a curve. (Optical illusion?)

 

The dilemma for KR is do we model slightly chunky valve gear that works (my preference but I grew up on H Dublo) or satisfy the display case purchasers who want fine and flimsy details to fully scale dimensions but rarely run their models if at all. Neither side can both be happy and a centre positioning is even worse as it satisfies neither side. I didn’t want a Fell but seeing the differently coloured liveries depending on which way round you look at it made me very glad I didn’t.

[Edwardian]

While I would defer to Andy Y and others with greater experience, what I have seen of RTR EPs is that factories often seem to take a pride in how poorly assembled they are (in contrast with the production version) and their recipients then drop-kick them round the office a few times before photographing or filming them. Many I have seen have had bits hanging off! 

 

Though I daresay some manufacturers' EPs retain a more professional appearance, I am nevertheless thus inclined not to be too concerned about how ragged the sample looks.

 

The valve gear is the more interesting question. To some extent this must be a game of 'wait and see', but wait and see with confidence? I think what I have derived from various helpful contributions here is that (a) KR has confirmed and claimed that all visible valve gear works (not 'will work' but 'works' according to the answer given to Coln McLeod), yet (b) that is certainly not the case on the EP and, furthermore, the way certain components appear to have been made seems to preclude the possibility of them operating correctly or at all. The conclusion inevitably seems to be that (a) and (b) cannot be reconciled.

 

Does this portend only partially functioning motion, and, if so, will that look good enough for many?  

 

One can only hope that Geoffrey Rush's explanation of the theatre business applies here ... but it's a mystery.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Edwardian
Spelling!

[PaulRhB]

I can see the eccentrics moving in the video. If you go to the YouTube video itself and click settings and set the speed to 0.25x then zoom in on the rear axle it’s clearly moving. As noted the radius rod isn’t apparently moving in this and appears to be on a fixed bracket. 
 

[AY Mod]

43 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

If you go to the YouTube video itself and click settings and set the speed to 0.25x

 

That was useful and confirms my initial impressions.

 

I took a couple of screenshots and lightened them to see what is or isn't happening.

 

 

The eccentric looks to have an oval aperture which probably slides over a pin at the point marked in green behind the brass bracket. The lower image is to illustrate there is no onward connection to the radius rod which is, therefore, purely cosmetic on this sample. It's obviously a conscious decision to engineer it that way and, unless there's clarification to the contrary, I'd doubt there'd be any change on further samples or the end product.

[GWR-fan]

A simple clarification from the manufacturer would solve the riddle of whether the model actually has working valve gear or maybe just a hangover from the initial thought bubble release information.   Based on previous releases all will be made clear when you actually have the model delivered to you.

 

Edit:  given the complexity of the steam engine on the manufacturer's Shay model,  then surely it is not beyond possibility that the valve gear operation could not be simulated on the "Bellerophon" model.

Edited January 31, 2023 by GWR-fan
Additional comment

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

solve the riddle of whether the model actually has working valve gear

Currently it has partial working valve gear, their “it all works” may be an economical statement on whether they think a radius rod is part of it 😉

(Yes I know it’s valve gear)

 

To be honest I don’t see how you make the joint to the valve spindle work without making it massively oversize. The eccentrics are far more important so overall I’d say it’s a sensible compromise, whether customers accept that same compromise is their choice. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by PaulRhB