Time for Hornby to move on from NEM652 8-pin?

[Luke Piewalker]

The TTS chips are basically wired decoders with a plug attached. Shouldn't be an impediment to them having a different plug soldered on.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Chris56057 said:

Simple thought, they won't move away from 8 pin whilst the TTS chips are being shipped out in this format? 

 

Yes but if they developed a new loco/MU then they could make the change then (because the TTS decoder wouldn't exist). It's not just about the suggestion they should do a refresh on their current stuff, but they are still doing brand new projects with this socket.

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, 7013 said:

I know diddly squat about electronics etc, but I have always wondered why you can get a tiny chip with a huge amount of data on it and plug it into a phone, but a similar system has not been adopted for decoders. I envisage a tiny slot in the bottom of the loco that you just push the chip in. As I said I know nothing about the technial challenges of such a system, but it would make life easy if it could be done.

Because the decoder has to deliver power, not just have the data in it. 
 

Now, a future standard could put the common power components on the internal PCB, so you are only plugging in the software program and data that utilises them. However, look at the complaints already about having just a DCC socket from those that are only DC!

 

Roy

Edited November 13, 2021 by Roy Langridge

[E100]

22 hours ago, Chris56057 said:

Simple thought, they won't move away from 8 pin whilst the TTS chips are being shipped out in this format? 

Is that something a simple adapter could solve?

[Roy Langridge]

3 minutes ago, E100 said:

Is that something a simple adapter could solve?

Only if there is room, and in many Hornby models, you struggle to get even a decoder in, let alone an adapter and a decoder. 
 

If they redesigned locos for 21pin but still sold TTS as 8pin, sales would probably drop-off as I think many would see it as “going backwards”. 
 

Roy

[Going2theDogs]

On 12/11/2021 at 19:41, Roy Langridge said:

Battery technology is not what is needed yet, so I fully agree. Capacity, memory effect,  charge cycles, size and the need to keep charging them if not in use are all issues that need to be overcome. 
 

I think the power will continue to come from the rails for a long time yet. 
 

Roy

Hi Roy (& others),

Battery technology has come on significantly over the last few years.

Using Li-Ion battery technology resolves a lot of the challenges previously experienced with other variants.

Li-ion eliminates the memory effect & also holds the charge when not in use. These batteries are also lighter.

Charging can be done either via a ‘trickle’ charge or ‘fast’ (without any detrimental effect to the battery).

Many different capacities are also now available.

I believe the real challenge will be sourcing & supplying the Li-Ion materials with the competition from electric cars, bikes, scooters all requiring a similar technology.

Edited December 15, 2021 by CB Rail

[TomScrut]

20 minutes ago, CB Rail said:

Battery technology has come on significantly over the last few years.

 

It still doesn't avoid the fact they need charging!

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

It still doesn't avoid the fact they need charging!

True. Those of us who have layouts fixed in locations where the seasons really dictate when you can operate, so months may pass between sessions, enjoy the fact that the throw of a mains switch (plus or minus a little track cleaning) is all that is needed to start running. Li-ion batts are a great leap forward, but inevitably the smallest ones have the least capability to hold a charge over time. 

 

I remain convinced that DC and DCC will continue to dominate in the smaller scales for a very long time to come. 

[TomScrut]

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

True. Those of us who have layouts fixed in locations where the seasons really dictate when you can operate, so months may pass between sessions, enjoy the fact that the throw of a mains switch (plus or minus a little track cleaning) is all that is needed to start running. Li-ion batts are a great leap forward, but inevitably the smallest ones have the least capability to hold a charge over time. 

 

I remain convinced that DC and DCC will continue to dominate in the smaller scales for a very long time to come. 

 

I have about 20 locos at any given time on my layout, and they all operate often but rotate with ones I don't have on the layout (at the moment about another 20 but with more on the way), managing the batteries on 40+ locos just sounds like a nuisance to me.

[Roy Langridge]

3 hours ago, CB Rail said:

Hi Roy (& others),

Battery technology has come on significantly over the last few years.

Using Li-Ion battery technology resolves a lot of the challenges previously experienced with other variants.

Li-ion eliminates the memory effect & also holds the charge when not in use. These batteries are also lighter.

Charging can be done either via a ‘trickle’ charge or ‘fast’ (without any detrimental effect to the battery).

Many different capacities are also now available.

I believe the real challenge will be sourcing & supplying the Li-Ion materials with the competition from electric cars, bikes, scooters all requiring a similar technology.”

Not quite true. The estimated workable life of a standard Lithium-Ion battery is about 2-3 years or 300-500 charge cycles, whichever comes first. Many car batteries use similar technology but they are different. For example Lithium-Polymer. 
 

A charge cycle is a period of use from fully charged, to fully discharged, and fully recharged again.
 

Leaving a lithium-ion  battery flat (below safe voltage)  is very bad for it. So users would have to remember to charge their stock after a running session. 
 

Yes there are different capacities, but that means different sizes and we have to get that size in our loco. 
 

Whilst electric car batteries seem to be quoted for a life of 8-10 years, look carefully at how that is described. It is most often until it will hold no charge, meaning its capacity could be severely degraded in the latter years of that time. 

We only have to look at mobile phones to see battery life does degrade, and there are almost all Lithium-ion. 
 

Roy

 

[No Decorum]

So long as decoders are standard in the sense of compatible with the controller, there is, as I see it, no need for a standard pin arrangement, just so long as there are sufficient connections available. It is just a matter of picking the right type of decoder for each locomotive. At the moment, capacitors hold enough charge to keep a loco going over a patch of dirt, so there is no need for a battery. I don’t see any virtue in a battery, even if fully charged, or even a large bank of capacitors. As has been pointed out, if a model comes off the track, do we want it to head remorselessly to the edge of the baseboard?

 

That said, DCC could do with improvement. With decoders becoming more powerful all the time, would it be all that difficult to provide for six digits (or more) for loco codes instead of just four? It would be handy for modern MUs. I have also mentioned need (my need anyhow) of a controller with the functionality of a laptop but the format of a handheld. Preferably not a touch screen but tactile buttons which light to display the function appropriate to each loco. Granted, lights are usually on F0 and engines on F1 but everything else is all over the place from loco to loco, as it has to be because of the variations on the real things.

[spamcan61]

6 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

It still doesn't avoid the fact they need charging!

Trickle charge from the track, just electrify the easy trackwork i.e. not points or crossings.

[woodenhead]

6 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

It still doesn't avoid the fact they need charging!

If trackworkers avoided the track itself and trespassers were careful, it could solve electrifying smaller branches, just hook the track to the mains and hey presto you have electric trains.

[TomScrut]

22 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Trickle charge from the track, just electrify the easy trackwork i.e. not points or crossings.

 

In that case I expect that a stay alive would be sufficient? I think the meaning of what has been said before is to remove power from the tracks altogether and run entirely on battery power. Please correct me if I misunderstood!

[woodenhead]

14 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

In that case I expect that a stay alive would be sufficient? I think the meaning of what has been said before is to remove power from the tracks altogether and run entirely on battery power. Please correct me if I misunderstood!

Hmmm, you could be onto something here - completely isolated points and relying on capacitors.

 

Of course you need a decent sized capacitor and over complex pointwork it might run out of juice but on a simple layout it should work.

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Hmmm, you could be onto something here - completely isolated points and relying on capacitors.

 

Of course you need a decent sized capacitor and over complex pointwork it might run out of juice but on a simple layout it should work.

 

Maybe Hornby are holding back on telling us that's what the large capacitor in the APT is for.

 

 

 

[Going2theDogs]

Hi All,

Hope you have all had a great weekend.

Some interesting comments & feedback from my earlier post about the advancement on battery technology.

For the record, I for one will continue with my use on DCC but was just making an observation.

I did smile about the comment about the fact that the batteries would need charging - very true that!

Stay safe people.

[Adamphillip]

I’m very much of the state of mind that Hornby need to move on in a great many areas, though namely DCC functionality and lighting for modern image models, their stubbornness to adhere to the 8 pin format and simple lights is baffling especially with companies like Bachman and Accurascale bringing more advanced models to market for comparable or even cheaper prices (see Hornby class 91 and compare to Accurascale class 92 and Bachman class 90)

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Adamphillip said:

I’m very much of the state of mind that Hornby need to move on in a great many areas, though namely DCC functionality and lighting for modern image models, their stubbornness to adhere to the 8 pin format and simple lights is baffling especially with companies like Bachman and Accurascale bringing more advanced models to market for comparable or even cheaper prices (see Hornby class 91 and compare to Accurascale class 92 and Bachman class 90)

Changing from 8 pin means a redesign of all the circuit boards and new mountings.

= cost / benefit ?

 

it also means redesigning decoders, which they've found a pretty lucrative niche in TTS.

 

However can the recent steam locos seen on TV generating smoke, lights and sound run off an 8 Pin ??

 

Interesting that theres not been many forum lines written about that development effort… ? 

 

 

 

 

[Adamphillip]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Changing from 8 pin means a redesign of all the circuit boards and new mountings.

= cost / benefit ?

 

it also means redesigning decoders, which they've found a pretty lucrative niche in TTS.

 

However can the recent steam locos seen on TV generating smoke, lights and sound run off an 8 Pin ??

 

Interesting that theres not been many forum lines written about that development effort… ? 

 

 

 

 

Just to address your points,

no one is saying they should retool the PCBs on ALL their older models, but what they should be doing is with new releases such as the class 91 they should be using a more feature rich decoder standard, also with their TTS decoders being decoder on harness they don’t have to retool the decoders themselves but just have to put a different harness on them, they could even get rid of the speaker and wire the speaker wires into the 21 pin (or whatever standard they go for) socket to power speakers built into the locos, think Bachman class 90.

 

regards Adam

[sparaxis]

I can understand a manufacturer not wanting to update an existing model from 8-pin to something else, especially as in the case of some Hornby locos that would require tooling modifications to the chassis if nothing else. However many Hornby tender locos HAD 21 pin sockets in the days when Hornby was using ESU sound decoders.

 

I think the issue is more about designing NEW tooling but still persisting with 8-pin. It really makes no sense at all.

[TomScrut]

10 minutes ago, sparaxis said:

I can understand a manufacturer not wanting to update an existing model from 8-pin to something else

 

Oddly enough though Bachmann are doing that with the class 40, not updating the socket but updating the PCB to allow better lighting control via DCC. They don't have to do it but it makes people want their product more.

 

I will almost certainly have Andania when it comes out, I would probably have been on the fence without the upgrades.

 

49 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

it also means redesigning decoders, which they've found a pretty lucrative niche in TTS.

 

They can just wire it into a 21 pin plug if they want to stay with what is a pretty naff decoder (but cheap for what you get).

 

49 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

However can the recent steam locos seen on TV generating smoke, lights and sound run off an 8 Pin ??

 

Interesting that theres not been many forum lines written about that development effort… ? 

 

I expect the smoke generator will probably be run directly off their decoder to keep you in their ecosystem, if it is run off 8 pin (do you see the socket in the show, can't remember).

[Michael Hodgson]

I believe you can generate smoke simply by fitting the wrong decoder.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 12/11/2021 at 16:40, Oldddudders said:

Given the huge number of modellers who have yet to embrace anything but DC, the Next Big Thing - whatever it is - will take years to equal DCC in use. 

Some on the continent are still using Marklin AC.

I still operate a layout (not my own) using 3rail DC - which does have one similarity the DCC, you need to know which round the loco is facing.

 

[autocoach]

I think Dapol is using the Next18 format on new projects . My new Class D (commissioned with Dapol) has the chip in the smokebox and uses a push/pull plug drawbar with imbedded connectors to the tender for sound and additional pickup.  Hornby does need to improve their game and stay up with the technology.  (We'll overlook the retrograde plastic tired drivers...at least they supplied alternate proper drivers with the model.)

 

However, unless someone manufactures a new well detailed WC/BOB in malachite SR livery with the early cab as an option, I am unlikely to purchase any more UK prototype steam. 

 

And my North American prototype steam will gradually be converted to the new LocoFi Gen 3 WIFI receiver (now in manufacture according to LocoFi for January-February 2022 distribution.)  I will use the receiver with a stay alive to eliminate pesky frog wiring.  It will be a while before the rest of the roster goes WIFI so DCC power will be used on some of the rails. The WIFI Receiver has micro SD card for installing alternate sound packages so even a chain drive 3 cylinder WC will be possible.  Is anybody at Hornby listening?