Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, No Decorum said:

A firebox glow does rather show up the lack of a crew.

Obviously  - because if there had been a Fireman on the engine he would have closed the firbox door except when firing so there'd be no flicker for most of the time.  So what we need is working firebox doors to go with and control, the firebox flicker - maybe?

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

Nobody has yet commented on that pic with the Royal headcode - with the top lamp on the bracket lowered to the mid rh side of the smokebox door. A position brought about in the last part of steam days, to move it away from the proximity of the 25kv ohl.

 This is a period when there was NO haulage of Royal trains.....

Queen came past my house in May 1968, stopped just down the road from my place.

She didnt even come around to say hello either, just opened some industrial unit.

 

But she was hauled by a 24 I believe…

 

Operation Spring Clean, May 1968, she toured Bolton, Bury, Burnley, Blackburn and Thameside… all the glamorous places, but she might definitely have spotted an 8f or a Black 5 around Padiham whilst she was tidying up the north west. Bolton shed was just about alive then too.

 

Stayed an hour, went off elsewhere. BR then closed the station, the factory she opened, later closed. The areas a bit guff now, could do with another spring clean.

 

The last steam hauled royal train was 45562 Alberta in 1967… interestingly no royal train lamps, just express lamps.

 

 

There was definitely royal train mileage going on in the 1960’s

 
but maybe not black 5’s.

Edited November 28, 2023 by adb968008

[stewartingram]

To say the 1960s covers 8 years, but to say the period of lower top headlamp is a lot less than that?2 years maybe?

I actually meant Royal Train steam hauled. HMQ cut down on personal trains quite a lot, preferring to travel on normal trains, or add a coach to them. I suspect that 1967 shot might be an 'add-on'? Maybe not, I really don't know. I know diesels became much more prominent.

[Wheatley]

That footage of Alberta is an empty stock movement so the Class 1 lamps are correct. That said, I don't think the Duke of Edinburgh on his own qualified for 4 lamps anyway (Stationmaster ?) so they'd be correct either way. 

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Obviously  - because if there had been a Fireman on the engine he would have closed the firbox door except when firing so there'd be no flicker for most of the time.  So what we need is working firebox doors to go with and control, the firebox flicker - maybe?

 

 

Just modulate the intensity of the light, showing the flare of open firedoors periodically, depending on some measure of how the loco is working. Should be easy to sync it with that shovelling sound they insist on including in DCC projects too.  Maybe they already do this.

 

 

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Obviously  - because if there had been a Fireman on the engine he would have closed the firbox door except when firing so there'd be no flicker for most of the time.  So what we need is working firebox doors to go with and control, the firebox flicker - maybe?

And a working regulator to manage the smoke.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by adb968008

[Phil Parker]

From Warley

 

[adb968008]

Omg, I didnt look at the back.

 

Are they all red ?

 

😀

 

seriously though, if you can fit a lamp iron it’ll be fine.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by adb968008

[64F]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

From Warley

 

 

41 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Are they all red ?

 

Maybe they all flash different colours for Christmas.

[simmo009]

Bear in mind these are samples, to show all possible locations. From my discussion with Hornby at Warley, the standard will be Express Goods arrangement. Additional lamps and irons will be provided for customisation, as fiddly as this may prove to be. Maybe we should wait a little longer to see what they finally approve for production, just a thought.

[Flying Pig]

42 minutes ago, simmo009 said:

Bear in mind these are samples, to show all possible locations. From my discussion with Hornby at Warley, the standard will be Express Goods arrangement. Additional lamps and irons will be provided for customisation, as fiddly as this may prove to be. Maybe we should wait a little longer to see what they finally approve for production, just a thought.

 

Customisation, of course, implies that the things are removable...

 

 

[Johan DC]

2 hours ago, simmo009 said:

 Maybe we should wait a little longer to see what they finally approve for production, just a thought.

Tsss, that's not how things work on RMweb 😁

[Fair Oak Junction]

Or in general. It's human nature to be inquisitive, to question, to analyse, to scrutinize, etc....

It's not different in other hobbies, and it certainly isn't unique to here! 😄

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Customisation, of course, implies that the things are removable...

 

 

 

Encouraging.

[Butler Henderson]

Would be nice to see a photo with just the lamp irons to see how much of a mess they look plugged into the lamp holes or have they actually designed a lamp iron width connection?

[spamcan61]

I think it's mentioned a couple of pages back, the design has a light pipe / diffuser under the footplate which shines through holes in the footplate thence through a right angle in the 'lamps' 

[Covkid]

14 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Would be nice to see a photo with just the lamp irons to see how much of a mess they look plugged into the lamp holes or have they actually designed a lamp iron width connection?

 

13 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I think it's mentioned a couple of pages back, the design has a light pipe / diffuser under the footplate which shines through holes in the footplate thence through a right angle in the 'lamps' 

 

That is the point.  A lamp iron is no more than three inches wide and less than an inch thick.  A piece of steel bar bolted or welded to the footplating. It is a very tiny detail over which an "interference fit" lamp would be impractical to be made to work even a dozen or more times. If the lamp is expected to receive a light source from under the footplating, who will it be hidden when there is no lamp on the bracket. 

 

Apologies for this but it is yet another example of Hornby trying to add "gimmick value " to a model locomotive, and I am convinced the majority of purchasers won't want it, but will be forced to pay extra for. Certainly not me though.  

[daltonparva]

Have a look at the Turbomotive. It comes with a lamp iron in place on the smokebox door which is removeable to plug a supplied lamp in. Presume the Black 5 will be the same.

[Flying Pig]

Hornby seem to have missed a design-clever trick here: put working lamps on your loco and apparently nobody will care what it looks like otherwise.  They could have saved themselves a fortune in design and development.

 

Anyone have an opinion on the rest of the model?  I can't comment on the fine detail without digging out the books, but I'm not quite convinced by the double chimney of the Caprotti engine.  Photos suggest it should be a bit curvier, with a larger radius to the lower flare, rather than the pipe and two washers shape it has.  Chimneys seem to be a stumbling block for model designers (recall the Hornby Scot needed revisiting) which is a pity as they are a vital aspect of getting the character of the engine right (like the face of a diesel).

[Fair Oak Junction]

Ignoring the lamps, and looking at it from a more casual point of view, I think they look very nice.

But do they look so much nicer than the last generation Black 5s that I would pay the extra cost? I'm not so sure.

I think I would still look for an older Black 5, or pick one of these up on sale.

[45568]

I have to say I have the Caprotti version on order from Hornby, and lamps aside, I see nothing in the photos shown so far to put me off, rather I am very much looking forward to my 'Gorilla Mickey'! I can see another deblinging exercise will be necessary, but that is not a major problem. Like others though, I am quite happy with my existing examples from the current tooling to be looking at multiple purchases. However, if I had no Black Fives, and wanted one or two, I would be very happy with these new models, (lamps aside!).

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Mallard60022]

Get it, hack it and cover it in filth. I would.

Phil

[cctransuk]

Just now, Mallard60022 said:

Get it, hack it and cover it in filth. I would.

Phil

 

Just as I recall them whilst trainspotting at Prestatyn, on the North Wales mainline.

 

I note that 44756 carries a SC (self-cleaning) plate - the smokebox interior MAY be pristine, but the rest of the loco certainly aint!

 

CJI.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Ignoring the lamps, and looking at it from a more casual point of view, I think they look very nice.

But do they look so much nicer than the last generation Black 5s that I would pay the extra cost? I'm not so sure.

I think I would still look for an older Black 5, or pick one of these up on sale.

 

From what I can see from the photos published here so far:

 

Pro:

The weird ledge is gone under the tender.

The bogie wheels are better (but still not quite right, the bevel is there but he boss should be more pronounced, see adb's Jubilee video above.)

The injectors and associated pipework under the cab have been added.

The tender fire-iron tunnel has been added.

The footplate rivet detail has been added 

The lubricator pipework appears to have been added but the photos of the fireman's side aren't clear.

Cab detail (there appears to be some)

 

Cons:

(<cough> lamps)

Bogie wheels as above

Tender sidesheets are still massively thick at the rear

 

Can't see if the gap under the smokebox thing has been addressed. Seems to have been. 

[Fair Oak Junction]

It's certainly nice to see much better cab details on these.

Although with such an enclosed cab, large tender, and once crew have been fitted how much of this detail is even going to be seen I wonder?