Heljan 10800 for OO

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

I'm seeing a poor color reproduction of a very weathered black locomotive.  Granted the bogies do look black, but if she had been repainted green with the early crest, I would expect her to look fresher.

 

Something I wrestled with when painting my Dave Alexander kit - and I probably saw the real thing during one of the Derby Works Open Days (aka. Horticultural Shows)!

 

For better or for worse .......

 

 

 

John Isherwood.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by cctransuk

[spackz]

1 minute ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

I'm seeing a poor color reproduction of a very weathered black locomotive.  Granted the bogies do look black, but if she had been repainted green with the early crest, I would expect her to look fresher.

It states in the text I've circled that it's in BR Green, the cab roof also looks grey. The Heljan description for 1083 is late crest 1959, this photo was taken in November 1959, so not sure when it would have worn the late crest. It obviously did as per John's photos above. As I said though, I'd just convert it back to its 1959 guise.

[TheEngineShed]

22 minutes ago, spackz said:

It states in the text I've circled that it's in BR Green, the cab roof also looks grey. The Heljan description for 1083 is late crest 1959, this photo was taken in November 1959, so not sure when it would have worn the late crest. It obviously did as per John's photos above. As I said though, I'd just convert it back to its 1959 guise.

 

The photo on David Hayes website is also on Colour-Rail's website.  On the C-R image, the colours are darker, and the colour of the sandboxes is a lot closer to that of the locomotive end.  The roof is much darker as well.  A power pole has also been photo shopped out of the Hayes website image and there is cloud detail not on the C-R image.  The Hayes image may have been tweaked a bit, I have done the same post processing scans of iffy positives.  C-R also states the image is Nov '58, not Nov '59.  It just seems she would be a bit brighter green at such an early date.

 

A tough call based on the photos alone. 

 

And John, that David Alexander kit looks great.   Thank you for building it, otherwise we might not have gotten a RTR 10800!  🙂

[TheEngineShed]

On 15/05/2022 at 13:58, montyburns56 said:

NBL 10800 Derby Works 1960 by Ron Bowyer

 

 

 

 

This gets  interesting, the top photo is Ron Bowyer's transparency on flickr.   Less green than Dai's image. 

 

Ron states that he loaned the slide to Colour-Rail for scanning.   C-R's scan of Ron's image has a power pole, so Ron has removed the offending pole jutting out from Fell, on his flickr stream.  I'm guilty of that!  Using the pole filter.  C-R didn't shop the pole out of the scan, but it does have more green than Ron's scan.  I'm not certain who Dai Pickup is, but his image on the Heys site is taken from the exact position as Ron's image.  You can't see it on the screen capture above, but if you look at the location of the jack along the brick wall relative to the right edge of the right buffer, it is dead on the same location.  It really looks like Dai has shopped the bogies, desaturated them, so they look "black" next to the "green" body.   A sky with clouds has also been photo shopped onto the Dai image, clues are the details on the front of the roof are missing, as is the top of the hand rail.  Plus that missing power pole. 

 

I don't know that I would trust the colours on "Dai's" image on Heys' site.  I'm still in the weathered black, tinted by the ambient lighting, camp.  I'd hate to think I ordered a black one when it should have been green...

 

[45568]

I am still confused over the descriptions and photos on Hattons site. Both 1081 and 1082 show a loco. with black bogies, yet it states that 1082 is black/silver final BR condition? I have 1082 on a preorder from Kernow, and I am hoping it has black bogies. That said, painting the bogies black is not that arduous!

On the green model, the loco. will need renumbering if it is to represent the green/early version as the font shown on the model represents the later type used on 'Hawk'.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[TheEngineShed]

27 minutes ago, 45568 said:

I am still confused over the descriptions and photos on Hattons site. Both 1081 and 1082 show a loco. with black bogies, yet it states that 1082 is black/silver final BR condition? I have 1082 on a preorder from Kernow, and I am hoping it has black bogies. That said, painting the bogies black is not that arduous!

On the green model, the loco. will need renumbering if it is to represent the green/early version as the font shown on the model represents the later type used on 'Hawk'.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

Hattons need to update their descriptions. 

 

Go to Rails of Sheffield, the descriptions match the latest photos and Heljan product numbers.  Then you can determine, if what you ordered, is what you wanted...

Edited September 24, 2022 by TheEngineShed

[45568]

3 hours ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

Hattons need to update their descriptions. 

 

Go to Rails of Sheffield, the descriptions match the latest photos and Heljan product numbers.  Then you can determine, if what you ordered, is what you wanted...

Thank you for pointing that out, I am happy that I have ordered correctly! The discrepancy between descriptions at various retailers cost me money as I hesitated when contacted regarding the price rise! Ah well!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[spackz]

6 hours ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

Hattons need to update their descriptions. 

 

Go to Rails of Sheffield, the descriptions match the latest photos and Heljan product numbers.  Then you can determine, if what you ordered, is what you wanted...

There's still confusion on the Br Green 1083, as it's states late 1950s, the photos above are dated May 1960 and Nov 1959, I can now see what you're saying about the black livery, this means it was never in BR Green before 1960 making the description wrong, if not the livery. I might reorder and go for Heljan 1082.

[cctransuk]

12 hours ago, TheEngineShed said:

 

 

This gets  interesting, the top photo is Ron Bowyer's transparency on flickr.   Less green than Dai's image. 

 

Ron states that he loaned the slide to Colour-Rail for scanning.   C-R's scan of Ron's image has a power pole, so Ron has removed the offending pole jutting out from Fell, on his flickr stream.  I'm guilty of that!  Using the pole filter.  C-R didn't shop the pole out of the scan, but it does have more green than Ron's scan.  I'm not certain who Dai Pickup is, but his image on the Heys site is taken from the exact position as Ron's image.  You can't see it on the screen capture above, but if you look at the location of the jack along the brick wall relative to the right edge of the right buffer, it is dead on the same location.  It really looks like Dai has shopped the bogies, desaturated them, so they look "black" next to the "green" body.   A sky with clouds has also been photo shopped onto the Dai image, clues are the details on the front of the roof are missing, as is the top of the hand rail.  Plus that missing power pole. 

 

I don't know that I would trust the colours on "Dai's" image on Heys' site.  I'm still in the weathered black, tinted by the ambient lighting, camp.  I'd hate to think I ordered a black one when it should have been green...

 

 

I was always a little dubious about the 'green', but am now pretty much convinced that 10800 was black in that photo, albeit with a layer of greenish algae that attaches itself to anything mechanical left out in all weathers.

 

Nonetheless, my Alexander 10800 will remain defiantly green!

 

John Isherwood.

Edited September 24, 2022 by cctransuk

[Halvarras]

15 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

 

 

These do?

 

John Isherwood.

 

PS. The latter photo leaves no doubt as to the shade of light green used on 10800 ('HAWK').

 

I notice that the first photo shows 10800 with OHLE flashes, which I believe first appeared in 1960? In case this helps.........

 

[Downer]

I've looked again at two articles on 10800 - one in MLI 185 10-11/2010, the other in BRI 5/2002 - and this is the story they tell:

 

10800 was wearing BR black/early crest went it went into Derby Works in Feb 56, and BR brunswick green/early crest when it came out again in Mar 57, so any photos taken after that date show the loco in green, not black. It wore this livery throughout its remaining year or so in active  British Railways service.

 

Sometime between the late spring of 1958 and the early spring of 1959 BR finally decided to scrap the loco, but it was stored at Derby, still in Brunswick green, until an agreement was reached with Brush to use the loco as a test bed. This happened sometime in the first half of 1961, and just prior to moving the loco to Loughborough in June or July the engine was removed and the loco given a late crest. Since it must have been towed from Derby to Loughborough, it seems probable that 10800 never wore the Brunswick green/late crest combination as a self-propelling entity. The first of  John's photos shows it soon after arrival at Loughborough, before it was re-engined and given the different lighter green livery.

 

From all of which I conclude that the Heljan Brunswick green/late crest 10800 is correct, but only for a diesel being towed or sitting in a Loughborough siding.  A Brunswick green/early crest loco would be rather more useful to modellers. 

[cctransuk]

59 minutes ago, Downer said:

10800 was wearing BR black/early crest went it went into Derby Works in Feb 56, and BR brunswick green/early crest when it came out again in Mar 57, so any photos taken after that date show the loco in green, not black. It wore this livery throughout its remaining year or so in active  British Railways service.

 

Whoopee!!!! 😁

 

My decision to paint 10800 in GEC is vindicated!

 

I can now, with a clear conscience, run it in my late 50s scenario - no need for Rule 1.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited September 24, 2022 by cctransuk

[TheEngineShed]

1 hour ago, Downer said:

10800 was wearing BR black/early crest went it went into Derby Works in Feb 56, and BR brunswick green/early crest when it came out again in Mar 57, so any photos taken after that date show the loco in green, not black. It wore this livery throughout its remaining year or so in active  British Railways service.

 

 

Well that certainly puts the photo analysis to shame!  10800 would have been green in Ron and Dai's photos  which have '58 '59 dates. 

 

A green 10800 with early crests would have been much more useful, maybe I need to consider switching my pre-order from black to green.  The crests and renumbering are an easy enough fix...

Edited September 24, 2022 by TheEngineShed

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

I can now, with a clear conscience, run it in my late 50s scenario - no need for Rule 1.

 

John Isherwood.

Just in case that herd of all brown cows you have in the dock are Salers, keep rule one in the back pocket……..😉

 

If anyone interested you can look it up 🤓

[TheEngineShed]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Whoopee!!!! 😁

 

My decision to paint 10800 in GEC is vindicated!

 

I can now, with a clear conscience, run it in my late 50s scenario - no need for Rule 1.

 

John Isherwood.

 

I've capitulated and joined the John Isherwood club!  🙂  Black pre-order changed to green.  I'll add an early crest and numbers in the correct font. 

 

Of course, I have lost my earlier pre-order spot, two months of queue time...

[ikks]

23 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Something I wrestled with when painting my Dave Alexander kit - and I probably saw the real thing during one of the Derby Works Open Days (aka. Horticultural Shows)!

 

For better or for worse .......

 

 

 

John Isherwood.

 

That looks excellent John, I saw her at Derby along with a number of "first generation" diesels" at the Horticulteral Show in '59-60 ...........didn't see many of the flowers though!!😁😁. As a "spotter though, it was a yearly highlight on our calendar.

Mike

[cctransuk]

Since it would appear that Heljan will not be producing the green / early crest version of 10800, I anticipate that there may well be some purchasers of the green / late crest version who wish to backdate their model.

 

To this end, anyone placing an order for my transfers; (Cambridge Custom Transfers); can request a 4mm. scale copy of my Sheet CJI-065 for 10800 ABSOLUTELY FREE OF CHARGE.

 

This sheet includes crests, numbering, builder's plates and water gauges, for all liveries that 10800 carried whilst operational on BR; (NOT as 'HAWK' in Brush ownership).

 

 

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited September 25, 2022 by cctransuk

[uax6]

On 23/09/2022 at 18:21, Southernman46 said:

Why did Paxman engines get such widespread usage given that they appear by many accounts to have been rubbish - even the HST engines (AFAIK) weren't without serious issues ................ ??

 

I don't think its as easy as saying that the Paxman engines were rubbish.  The install in 10800 suffered from having bad plumbing attached to it (I have read that somewhere, but can't recall where now!), including poorly sized rads.

 

The 15 and 16's used a similar engine, which then showed up issues with the cylinder heads (alloy), which I believe got changed to iron over time.

 

The Claytons (17) were based on the engines used in the diesel-electric railcar based on the Watford electric bogies on LMS P1 all steel brake thirds. In this use the alloy heads on the engines didn't show any issue, and when BR ordered the engines for the 17's they insisted they were the same as the ones in the railcar, even though Paxman's had wanted to supply iron heads, which they ended up doing anyway!

 

The HST's were going new into the unknown, and it was discovered that the rad size was too small to dissipate the heat that the engines produced, but once that was sorted they settled down to be reliable...

 

 

Andy G

[uax6]

Anyway back to models:

Does anyone know where Frank Roomes' 7mm 10800 is now please?  Heres a picture of it on another thread: 

 

A lovely loco, and I remember it ran like a swiss watch (like all of Franks locos did)..

 

Andy G

[AY Mod]

@Phil Parker grabbed a couple of EP snaps.

 

[cbeagleowner]

Hi all. Does anyone know when 10800 lost its silver bogie frames please?

 

I model the peak line and have a photo in the early 50’s at Peak Forest where the bogies are clearly silver bogies and one at Chinley North junction if memory serves which is less clear. Any help would be appreciated as I think I prefer black bogie frames! Or was that just when it ran on the SR?

 

Also just to say I did message BJ about the early crest green livery as I woupd have waited around for that one - John’s kit is superb I think - but my impression is that He / Heljan don’t seem to think it ever ran on that condition. 

[TheEngineShed]

On 06/05/2023 at 03:58, cbeagleowner said:

Also just to say I did message BJ about the early crest green livery as I woupd have waited around for that one - John’s kit is superb I think - but my impression is that He / Heljan don’t seem to think it ever ran on that condition. 

 

Based on the comments and evidence in this topic, 10800 ran in green with the early crest for a couple of years before being taken out of service.  It never operated in service in green with the late crest.  So your best bet if you want to run 10800 in green, is to get a set of Cambridge Custom Transfers with the early crest and numbers, and backdate the livery.

[TheEngineShed]

On 28/11/2022 at 05:47, AY Mod said:

@Phil Parker grabbed a couple of EP snaps.

 

 

Looks promising, hopefully Heljan will get a proper fit between the hood and frame.  They didn't get that right on the PWMs.

 

One item that looks like it might need fixing on the green early crest, if you go that route, is the steam generator stack.  It had changed to a rectangular shape later in 10800's service life.

 

 

[cbeagleowner]

Pics of production samples from hattons

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/versiondetails/5312/heljan_oo_br_nbl_prototype_10800&utm_source=klaviyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=modvehid5312-heljanbrnblprototype10800productionsamples#models

[rembrow]

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