Heljan 10800 for OO

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, Wagonmaster said:

Ah, probably bad wording on my part. No, not a prototype as in 'one off' locos such as Falcon, Lion, Kestrel etc. A prototype as in the 'real thing' as opposed to a model. In the same way say Bachmanns Class 47 is a model of the real thing and looks 'prototypical'. Does that make any sense? I think you know what I mean. 

 

I would have thought the Class 70's would have been produced by now with their long lives and numerous liveries from Southern Railway green as CC1 etc. up to Banger Blue.

I would be amazed if someone isn't already working on them and they have not yet got to the stage where they can announce them.  There's lot of work in there if whoever is going to get the detail right on all of them and it would be a disaster if they weren't done properly as that would queer the pitch for someone doing decent ones - as happened with a certain EM1 some years back

[Mark Dickerson]

11 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

The Dave Alexander white metal kit made up well, as did all his kits. If there is a sudden glut of unmade kits on a well known Internet auction site, it could be a cheaper alternative. My  version runs on two Tenshodo SPUD's, is DCC fitted and lights.

Somewhere, somewhere, I have a part-assembled Q-Kits kit, complete with its "interesting" motor bogie. I was going to try a US HO chassis long ago. I'm not sure the savings using two motor bogies rather than saving up and getting the Heljan version are worth it for my one. (There again, I'm a sucker for a good secondhand bodge.)

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Wagonmaster said:

Hi John, I think I do have a photo of D9998 somewhere. I'll try and dig it out for you. If I remember correctly, it didn't carry the number and was painted orange. I believe it spent some time at Gloucester Docks.

 

Ah, I know the photo - I'd got it into my head that it was the same loco as D2999, before BR bought it.

 

Regards,

John isherwood.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Mark Dickerson said:

Somewhere, somewhere, I have a part-assembled Q-Kits kit, complete with its "interesting" motor bogie. I was going to try a US HO chassis long ago. I'm not sure the savings using two motor bogies rather than saving up and getting the Heljan version are worth it for my one. (There again, I'm a sucker for a good secondhand bodge.)

 

You can still get Black Beetles directly from Oz - MUCH better than SPUDS.

 

With two Black Beetles, a solid brass chassis and a whitemetal body, my Dave Alexander 10800 (see above) will pull anything, and 'irons out' the track in no uncertain manner.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

 ... I would have thought the Class 70's would have been produced by now with their long lives and numerous liveries from Southern Railway green as CC1 etc. up to Banger Blue.

With basically the same bogies* as the Bulleid diesels, I know who SHOULD be looking at these.

 

* and the same bogie centres on 20003

[Wagonmaster]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

With basically the same bogies* as the Bulleid diesels, I know who SHOULD be looking at these.

 

* and the same bogie centres on 20003

Yes, that is who I thought would have had a go at it by now!

[Wagonmaster]

6 hours ago, Mark Dickerson said:

Somewhere, somewhere, I have a part-assembled Q-Kits kit, complete with its "interesting" motor bogie. I was going to try a US HO chassis long ago. I'm not sure the savings using two motor bogies rather than saving up and getting the Heljan version are worth it for my one. (There again, I'm a sucker for a good secondhand bodge.)

 

When I built mine (quite a few years ago now), SPUD's were not quite so expensive. Daves kit is quite heavy being white metal and I figured two SPUD's would be less of a strain. As John Isherwood says, a Black Beetle would be a much better option. It's finding something that will fit in the narrow body profile really. 

 

In my Irish GM's I have used the Athearn SD9  chassis. Would that be an option?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Wagonmaster

[Mark Dickerson]

6 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

You can still get Black Beetles directly from Oz - MUCH better than SPUDS.

 

With two Black Beetles, a solid brass chassis and a whitemetal body, my Dave Alexander 10800 (see above) will pull anything, and 'irons out' the track in no uncertain manner.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Thanks - I think the Q Kits version might be better used as flail ballast for hand-to-hand combat though. I suppose it might be able to use a Heljan Class 15/16 as we're talking about the same amount for 2 powered Black Beetles.

[Mark Dickerson]

2 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

In my Irish GM's I have used the Athearn SD9  chassis. Would that be an option?

That's interesting - I ought to have a look. I think I'm heading towards doing something with the old kit and saving up for a different livery of the Heljan model. Two prototypes in my world.

[boxbrownie]

20 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

 

Yes, you're right, there is. Judith Edge Kits produces a kit of D2999 with alternative parts for industrial versions. The kit would even make D9998. Below is my model of D2999.

 

I built a Loco looking the same as that one back when I was about twelve or thirteen, I bought it because I liked making Airfix kits but wanted to build a working Loco, it was white metal and I used bostic* to hold it together, I never did get it running as my engineering skills were pretty poor back than but I do know it weighed a ton!

 

*I didn’t know any better 

[John Tomlinson]

On 26/02/2022 at 00:08, Wagonmaster said:

Another prototype no-one has mentioned yet are the Southern Railway electrics, later BR Class 70 numbered 20001-3. These lasted until the early 1970's and were even painted in Corporate Blue livery.

 

I am surprised it has taken Heljan so long to produce 10800. It seemed a logical follow on from their Class 15 and Class 16 produced quite a few years ago. The same chassis probably could have been used.  

 

The Dave Alexander white metal kit made up well, as did all his kits. If there is a sudden glut of unmade kits on a well known Internet auction site, it could be a cheaper alternative. My  version runs on two Tenshodo SPUD's, is DCC fitted and lights.

 

 

 

Your comment about a common chassis to the Class 16 is exactly what I was wondering.

 

I don't have a proper drawing of 10800, but the bogies look identical, and it's quite possible that the bogie centres are at the same distance as a Class 16 also. In that case, "all" Heljan need are some new body mouldings, and please, a better and more reliable motor.

 

Having said that I'd consider going the Alexander kit route, as these undoubtedly will soon start appearing on ebay!

 

John.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

 

Having said that I'd consider going the Alexander kit route, as these undoubtedly will soon start appearing on ebay!

 

John.

Nice kits.  I particuarly liked the way the bogies were secured - a press-stud as used as a fastener on some garments. 

[No Decorum]

I suppose it depends on how particular you want to be. The wheels on 10800 were smaller than those under the Class 16s.

[Downer]

Returning to the Heljan 10800, I'd like - using info already supplied by No Decorum, cctransuk and Muz - to try and summarise the situation regarding the various versions on offer. 

 

First, we will not be getting the loco in as-built condition, with grilles on the bonnet.

 

Second, 1080 and 1081will be pristine and weathered versions of the loco in its 'post-1954' black, early emblem condition.  Which is clear enough as far as it goes. But were the bonnet grilles the only difference from the as-built loco?  And more importantly, how long was the loco in this condition?  It was certainly green by January 1957, albeit still with early emblems, which it kept until put in store at Derby in 1959.

 

Heljan's 1082 model may be this green, early emblem version, and not, as advertised, black.   If it is black, then what does 'BR final condition' mean? What changes were made between 1954 and  January 1957?

 

Heljan's claim that 1083 will be BR green with late crest raises three possibilities:  It could be the aforementioned 1957-9 version in brunswick green with an early emblem. It 

could be the brunswick green with late crest and smaller modern numbers version which, as far as I know, only made the one outdoor trip - to Brush Works in Loughborough. Or it could be the much altered version which later emerged from there in the much lighter Sherwood Green. 

 

Heljan - Ben? - for those of us keen to pre-order, some clarification would be much appreciated. 

 

 

  

[New Haven Neil]

On 25/02/2022 at 09:41, No Decorum said:

I don’t think you have. The very first diesel hydraulics produced by North British* had an engine failure on its first run. North British Class 43 Warships† were judged less reliable than the Swindon 42s† and relegated to less important work. It took a lot of work to get the Class 22 Baby Warships‡ into a sort of reliable state. The problems seemed to be more with the engines than the transmissions. To simplify, it was partly because the German engines were designed in metric and NB translated the dimensions to Imperial rather than tool up for metric and partly because of deficiencies in the cooling systems.

 

I seem to detect a little tongue in cheek in your comment because I’m sure you know this better than I do but I thought it might be new to some people here.

 

* Modelled by Kernow.

† Modelled by Bachmann.

‡ Modelled by Dapol.

 

To veer back on topic slightly, lets not forget 10800 had a Paxman engine, not a German design as per the Warships etc.  As someone who once had to try to hold Paxman engines of similar design (used for alternators on ships)  together for a living, I can semi-officially say they were rubbish!  Grenades really, and as for the exhaust manifold studs.....aaiiieeee!

[The Stationmaster]

16 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

To veer back on topic slightly, lets not forget 10800 had a Paxman engine, not a German design as per the Warships etc.  As someone who once had to try to hold Paxman engines of similar design (used for alternators on ships)  together for a living, I can semi-officially say they were rubbish!  Grenades really, and as for the exhaust manifold studs.....aaiiieeee!

Indeed and of course D600 in any case had German built engines (as did D601 - only the final three had NBL built engines).  The MAN design had a reputation for throwing oil and the Glasgow built ones carried on that long established tradition.  Back to 10800.

[Richard_A]

Well my hope that I'd find an Alexander models one has happened, £58 on ebay very pleased. 

 

I hope I build it as good as the Heljan one will no doubt be. 

[Halvarras]

15 hours ago, rka said:

Well my hope that I'd find an Alexander models one has happened, £58 on ebay very pleased. 

 

I hope I build it as good as the Heljan one will no doubt be. 

 

Good score, and it should be relatively straightforward to build - around 30 years ago I was presented with an Alexander Class 15 kit as part of a job lot from a friend going O gauge, and as I had no need for a 15 I passed it on, but having built a few MTK kits in my time I was gobsmacked at the quality of the castings! 

 

Regarding 10800 vs Class 16, according to the 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' on both types the bogie centres are different - 22' 6" on 10800 vs 20' 0" on the Class 16, so Heljan's chassis for the latter is not a direct fit.

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

Regarding 10800 vs Class 16, according to the 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' on both types the bogie centres are different - 22' 6" on 10800 vs 20' 0" on the Class 16, so Heljan's chassis for the latter is not a direct fit.

 

To be honest I am surprised the difference is only 2'6".  If you look at the pictures of 10800 it looks quite a long low locomotive whereas the NBL "class 16" is quite dumpy in comparison. 

[BrushVeteran]

2 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

Good score, and it should be relatively straightforward to build - around 30 years ago I was presented with an Alexander Class 15 kit as part of a job lot from a friend going O gauge, and as I had no need for a 15 I passed it on, but having built a few MTK kits in my time I was gobsmacked at the quality of the castings! 

 

Regarding 10800 vs Class 16, according to the 'Modern Locomotives Illustrated' on both types the bogie centres are different - 22' 6" on 10800 vs 20' 0" on the Class 16, so Heljan's chassis for the latter is not a direct fit.

A class 15 chassis should be almost the right dimensions, just need to change the bogie side frames from a class 16.

[Wagonmaster]

21 hours ago, rka said:

Well my hope that I'd find an Alexander models one has happened, £58 on ebay very pleased. 

 

I hope I build it as good as the Heljan one will no doubt be. 

Great find! The Alexander kit is very well cast and goes together with minimal fuss, as with all his kits. You probably saw my post with a photo of the one I built. I used two Tenshodo SPUD's and of course the bogie centres are therefore correct. So a few options there for you.

 

Keep us posted on how you get on!

[Halvarras]

5 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

To be honest I am surprised the difference is only 2'6".  If you look at the pictures of 10800 it looks quite a long low locomotive whereas the NBL "class 16" is quite dumpy in comparison. 

 

Took another look - interestingly the Class 16 overall length is 42' 6", 10800 is 7.5" shorter at 41' 10.5" (overall heights differ by just half an inch). In side view the Class 16's prominent end overhangs and 10800's lack of them is apparent so this must be why the shorter locomotive appears longer and the longer one appears dumpy!

(This assumes the published data are comparable; also apologies for the imperial/decimal mix above, it's easier to type/read!)

 

4 hours ago, BrushVeteran said:

A class 15 chassis should be almost the right dimensions, just need to change the bogie side frames from a class 16.

 

Checked that too - quite right Sir, a 10800-matching 22' 6". Overall length of Class 15 is 42' 0" , just 1.5" longer than 10800 and as a result displays much the same lack of end overhangs making it look visibly longer.......but both are still marginally shorter than the dumpy one!

However installing a complete Heljan Class 15 chassis into a whitemetal Alexander body might also require a fire suppression system, to cater for that little can motor's inevitable pyrotechnic display when it realises that you want it to move a train as well as its new body......

 

[montyburns56]

NBL 10800 Derby Works 1960 by Ron Bowyer

 

 

[Trainshed Terry]

4 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

NBL 10800 Derby Works 1960 by Ron Bowyer

 

 

 

 That looks like the Fell locomotive behind it as well.

 

Terry

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Trainshed Terry said:

 

 That looks like the Fell locomotive behind it as well.

 

 

Seems it had become the Fell Apart loco by then!