Heljan 10800 for OO

[zoomer1979]

Anyone planning on modelling the Hawk version of this loco. I'm tempted due to the further discounts on the models. Is it a case for a whole new body practically?

Neil.

[cctransuk]

22 minutes ago, zoomer1979 said:

Anyone planning on modelling the Hawk version of this loco. I'm tempted due to the further discounts on the models. Is it a case for a whole new body practically?

Neil.

 

Pretty much - the cab was adapted, but I think that the long and short bonnet panels were new construction.

 

It would seem a ripe project for someone to design a 3D printed replacement body to fit the Heljan body.

 

CJI.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Pretty much - the cab was adapted, but I think that the long and short bonnet panels were new construction.

 

It would seem a ripe project for someone to design a 3D printed replacement body to fit the Heljan body.

 

CJI.

 

All fine and dandy, but who's going to do the transfers?!!

 

Mike.

[cctransuk]

26 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

All fine and dandy, but who's going to do the transfers?!!

 

Mike.

 

Mike,

 

You build it, I'll do the transfers!

 

I saw 'HAWK' one lunchtime, at the end of our school playing field - on one of its very rare mainline excursions from Brush at Loughborough.

 

I'd never seen so many men in white coats in one place!

 

John Isherwood.

[zoomer1979]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Mike,

 

You build it, I'll do the transfers!

 

I saw 'HAWK' one lunchtime, at the end of our school playing field - on one of its very rare mainline excursions from Brush at Loughborough.

 

I'd never seen so many men in white coats in one place!

 

John Isherwood.

I don't suppose you remember how it sounded? Did it make a weird noise like a Class 323 EMU with its AC motors?

Neil.

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, zoomer1979 said:

I don't suppose you remember how it sounded? Did it make a weird noise like a Class 323 EMU with its AC motors?

Neil.

 

'Fraid not - it had arrived by the time that I'd scoffed my school dinner, and hadn't moved by the time that the whistle sounded for afternoon lessons.

 

Sorry,

John Isherwood.

[Covkid]

On 08/12/2023 at 16:48, cctransuk said:

I saw 'HAWK' one lunchtime, at the end of our school playing field - on one of its very rare mainline excursions from Brush at Loughborough.

 

I'd never seen so many men in white coats in one place!

John Isherwood.

 

On 08/12/2023 at 18:32, zoomer1979 said:

I don't suppose you remember how it sounded? Did it make a weird noise like a Class 323 EMU with its AC motors?

Neil.

 

On 08/12/2023 at 18:40, cctransuk said:

'Fraid not - it had arrived by the time that I'd scoffed my school dinner, and hadn't moved by the time that the whistle sounded for afternoon lessons.

 

Sorry,

John Isherwood.

 

That is really interesting John.  I thought I read somewhere that 10800 never ventured out of the works onto the main line in it's brief guise as Hawk. 

 

As for the noise I imagine it spent a lot of time idling so would sound like one end of a Western due to it's MD655 engine.  Or maybe like a slightly muted Hymek which had the larger MD870 engine. 

 

Did the AC tractioned trains make musical noises back then ? I remember the class 323 EMUs as being the first musical trains I had heard here i n the UK 

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

 

That is really interesting John.  I thought I read somewhere that 10800 never ventured out of the works onto the main line in it's brief guise as Hawk. 

 

As for the noise I imagine it spent a lot of time idling so would sound like one end of a Western due to it's MD655 engine.  Or maybe like a slightly muted Hymek which had the larger MD870 engine. 

 

Did the AC tractioned trains make musical noises back then ? I remember the class 323 EMUs as being the first musical trains I had heard here i n the UK 

 

The test run that I can vouch for would have been from Brush at Loughborough to Wigston, south of Leicester on the Midland Mainline.

 

When I saw it, it was standing at the up slow platform of Wigston Magna station, and was stationary for at least the half hour of our lunchbreak.

 

I'd guess that the train was turned on the triangle of lines formed by the connection to the Nuneaton line  before departing back to Brush.

 

I have no memory of the engine sound, but it was probably idling rather than shut down.

 

I do know that the 'white coats' were scuttling around like ants!

 

John Ishetwood.

[Opelsi]

On 15/09/2023 at 07:25, SRman said:

On 15/09/2023 at 16:41, Darius43 said:

Just fitted a Roads and Rails ESU sound decoder to my 10800 and the top light doesn’t work with that either.  
 

 

 

On 15/09/2023 at 07:25, SRman said:

I have tried several decoders from Zimo, ESU, Lenz and TCS, and none of them will operate the top light at the short hood end (on any function key, not just the suggested F5), so I suspect there is a fault with my model - either a dead connection or faulty LED. Still, I'm not too worried about it as I will be fitting discs and the extra lamp irons for SR use.

 

 

On 16/09/2023 at 19:24, wiggy1 said:

 

The top light on the long nose end is wired to AUX2 so you need a decoder that has AUX3 capability (see below).

Also the top light on the short nose is wired to AUX3 BUT it only works when moving (this is not a decoder programming issue but a wiring issue as far as I can tell) and in the wrong direction so it comes on when moving in the forward with the long nose leading on the short nose end.

Explain that one!!!!

Also AUX1 works the cab light.

Confused.

Wiggy.

 

Ran in my model on DC earlier in the week and now been looking into this.

 

I too got nowhere with a TSC [EU621 / 1344].

 

Then I tried a Dapol Imperium 3.

This does actually seem to work properly though the short end top light (on function 3) is a little dimer than the others. Unsure if I can adjust this on a CV settings?

 

Did try reading the CV settings off the Imperium3 and mirroring them on the TCS, but that didn't work.

Then actually looked at the the outputs from the Imperium3 on the ECoS, was surprised to see no outputs ticked for function 3!

 

Interested in other's comments / solutions if you have managed any better (or worse).

 

Compliments of the Season from the Seaside!

 

 

[steve1]

Clever Santa. Now I need an excuse for running it…

 

steve

 

 

[Pteremy]

On 16/09/2023 at 19:24, wiggy1 said:

 

The top light on the long nose end is wired to AUX2 so you need a decoder that has AUX3 capability (see below).

Also the top light on the short nose is wired to AUX3 BUT it only works when moving (this is not a decoder programming issue but a wiring issue as far as I can tell) and in the wrong direction so it comes on when moving in the forward with the long nose leading on the short nose end.

Explain that one!!!!

Also AUX1 works the cab light.

Confused.

Wiggy.

 

Over the last couple of days I finally got round to fitting a sound decoder to my 10800. I bought a Loksound 5 decoder from Road and Rails intended for a Class 16, which i thought might be a reasonable approximation (this was before a bespoke decoder for the 10800 was made available). I never heard the original and the sound is a sufficiently 'old throaty diesel sound', unlike anything else I have, that I am quite happy with it, even if it isn't particularly authentic. I am happy with the driving experience as well.

 

On a rolling road I thought that I had a problem with a headlight at one end. I found that F19 switched the cab light on and off and F20 the headlamp on and off at one end only. But on the track I have found that, even when stationary, F20 controls the light at both ends. What I think I missed on the rolling road is that (with this decoder) when you change direction you have to reapply F20, it does not change automatically like the directional lights!

 

What I don't have is a middle light on the bottom row of lights, at either end. I think that 10800 had them, but I am not sure if the model does, as there does not appear to be an LED in the middle?

 

As an aside I managed to knock the cab light LED off when attempting to fit some filter material to turn the white LEDs a more authentic yellow. Sadly this was over engineering as the body is such a tight fit that it would not go back on with the filter (and clapton tape used to attach it) in place, thin though it is. If i can get a replacement element then I will fix it. But I can live without it, whereas the headlamps are, in my view, one of the distinctive and attractive features of 10800.

[Roy Langridge]

4 hours ago, Pteremy said:

 

As an aside I managed to knock the cab light LED off when attempting to fit some filter material to turn the white LEDs a more authentic yellow. Sadly this was over engineering as the body is such a tight fit that it would not go back on with the filter (and clapton tape used to attach it) in place, thin though it is. If i can get a replacement element then I will fix it. But I can live without it, whereas the headlamps are, in my view, one of the distinctive and attractive features of 10800.

Have you just tried several coats of a yellow Sharpie pen over the light? Has worked on several of my models. 

 

Roy

[Pteremy]

12 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Have you just tried several coats of a yellow Sharpie pen over the light? Has worked on several of my models. 

 

Roy

 

The plastic light fitting or the LED itself? I have seen that recommended for LEDs, and I see that you can also get glass paint for painting LEDs. I thought that using a  filter would be helpful because I could experiment with different strengths until I found the one I preferred. But sometimes low tech solutions are the best! And I suspect that I need to reduce the intensity of the light anyway.

[adb968008]

On 26/12/2023 at 10:44, steve1 said:

Clever Santa. Now I need an excuse for running it…

 

 

 

Eurostar relief workings, they need everything they can get currently.

 

😀

[Pteremy]

To answer my own question (I suspect) I have found that Sharpie ink is heat resistant up to 260 deg C, and can be removed with rubbing alcohol. So perfectly possible to experiment with.

[SRman]

An update from my 10800 experiments:

 

I reported before that I was having no luck with the top light on the short hood using any of Zimo MX634C/D (I tried both settings!), Zimo MX638C/D (all four settings tried), Lais 860019 (which, in spite of claims I have seen, appears to be a 4-function decoder), and now, the latest attempt, a Lais 870019 with stay-alive capability and 6-functions. The latter only arrived today and it works! 👏🎉

 

As the locomotive requires five functions for the lighting: lower markers front (forwards), lower markers rear (reverse), upper marker front, upper marker rear, and cab light. The Zimo decoders have six functions but still would not light the rear top marker for some reason. Anyway, the Lais 870019 works all of the required functions. I have not added a stay alive pack, but it has the wires attached to make such an installation easier.

While I had the body off, I used an orange Sharpie on the cab light and that has dimmed down nicely to a dull yellowish glow - I may have added too much ink, but it can be wiped off to reduce the effect a little.

 

I hope this information may help others here as well.

 

On the subject of Sharpies, I will try using a black one to touch up the handrails where I have scratched them from repeated removals and reinstallations of the body. They don't normally have to cope with much handling.

 

 

Edited January 11 by SRman

[joseph benjamin]

I built a Dave Alexander model 10 years ago modified with only the side top vents as it ran over Peak Forest in June 1950. As Heljan didn't make this version I wasn't interested.

[Butler Henderson]

On 11/01/2024 at 10:11, SRman said:

An update from my 10800 experiments:

 

I reported before that I was having no luck with the top light on the short hood using any of Zimo MX634C/D (I tried both settings!), Zimo MX638C/D (all four settings tried), Lais 860019 (which, in spite of claims I have seen, appears to be a 4-function decoder), and now, the latest attempt, a Lais 870019 with stay-alive capability and 6-functions. The latter only arrived today and it works! 👏🎉

Many six function decoders have two two logic output amongst their 6 functions while this loco needs six power functions.

[SRman]

1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

Many six function decoders have two two logic output amongst their 6 functions while this loco needs six power functions.

 

True, but the Zimo 21-pin decoders have a rather nice trick: you can switch between logic and powered settings by putting a value into CV8. I tried all of the settings on two different Zimo decoders - a budget MX638 and a "full fat" MX634. Both are 6-function decoders. Neitehr worked fully in 10800.

[Butler Henderson]

For the record the the Lais 860019  (sold at a higher price as the Dapol Imperium 1)  has 2 logic outputs so is not suitable for this loco. Its is actually listed as 860019 on the instruction leaflet supplied by Dapol but all their documents refer to Auxs 3-6 to being logic . Lais themselves state

Quote

Function: 4*100mA + 2 Logic Output

.Just to muddle the matter they say the same of the 870019, Digitrains however list it as

Quote

Functions: 6 at 100mA each

That again is sold at a higher price as the Dapol Imperium 7 (oddly not listed by Dapol themselves)

[SRman]

24 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

For the record the the Lais 860019  (sold at a higher price as the Dapol Imperium 1)  has 2 logic outputs so is not suitable for this loco. Its is actually listed as 860019 on the instruction leaflet supplied by Dapol but all their documents refer to Auxs 3-6 to being logic . Lais themselves state

.Just to muddle the matter they say the same of the 870019, Digitrains however list it as

That again is sold at a higher price as the Dapol Imperium 7 (oddly not listed by Dapol themselves)

 

I tried a Lais 860019 and found that it didn't work all the lights, but their 870019 did. So far, it has proved to be the only decoder that works the top light on the short hood. And I tried several other brands as well - ESU and Zimo, among others, with an equal lack of success. Odd, because the Zimo 21-pin decoders can be switched to provide logic or full-powered outputs on the relevant Aux outputs.

 

[Jenny Emily]

20 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

For the record the the Lais 860019  (sold at a higher price as the Dapol Imperium 1)  has 2 logic outputs so is not suitable for this loco. Its is actually listed as 860019 on the instruction leaflet supplied by Dapol but all their documents refer to Auxs 3-6 to being logic . Lais themselves state

.Just to muddle the matter they say the same of the 870019, Digitrains however list it as

That again is sold at a higher price as the Dapol Imperium 7 (oddly not listed by Dapol themselves)

Just to be clear, Dapol Imperium are not made by Lais and have nothing to do with Lais. 
 

Lais are pirated versions of the older DCCconcepts blue decoders

[Butler Henderson]

4 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

Just to be clear, Dapol Imperium are not made by Lais and have nothing to do with Lais. 
 

Lais are pirated versions of the older DCCconcepts blue decoders

In that case why does the Dapol instruction sheet refer to the Imperium 1 as the 860019 ?

https://wicknessmodels.co.uk/slarti/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Imperium_instructions.pdf

Functionally they appear identical and the major difference is there is no srink wrap on the Dapol ones.

[Jenny Emily]

7 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

In that case why does the Dapol instruction sheet refer to the Imperium 1 as the 860019 ?

https://wicknessmodels.co.uk/slarti/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Imperium_instructions.pdf

Functionally they appear identical and the major difference is there is no srink wrap on the Dapol ones.

Probably means that Lais are pirating Dapol too. 
 

I clarified with Dapol, that Lais are nothing legitimately to do with Dapol’s decoders. 

[Kaput]

Why would Dapol's instructions refer to it using the Lais product number if Lais were pirating Dapol's product.

 

Theres no if's, buts or maybes about it. The Imperium 1 and 2 are LaisDCC decoders with the shrinkwrap removed, CV7 changed to Dapol (I think) and stuck in a Dapol box.

Never used any of the other Imperium decoders so can't comment on them.

 

 

Now maybe Dapol didn't exactly rock up to Lais and say "We want to rebadge your decoders, price please" and really just commissioned a factory in China to make decoders for them and said factory just bought them from Lais. Nobody will ever know for sure.