British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[JohnR]

42 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163586-rapido-dangles-3mm-rolling-stock-carrot/

 

Interesting to see some of the comments on there....

[eldomtom2]

48 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

Yup.  There's also an existing ecosystem of (yes mostly European looking) buildings, scenic items, road vehicles, lighting, ISO containers, cargos, etc.  Both in shake-the-box and kit form.

There's always the possibility of Piko / Tillig / etc producing UK prototypes if there's a suitable market.  European HO manufacturers often cover a spread of countries, and TT manufacturers are already used to operating in a niche.  That is pure frothy speculation though 🙃

From a couple of other non-public conversations, I think some of the smaller UK manufacturers are open-minded to TT possibilities, especially if there's also potential European market for the vehicles.  Again speculation though. 😜

Tillig at least have produced models of the P8s given as WW1 reparations to Belgium and Italy (neither countries being hotspots of TT), so for something like the Class 66 where there's a clear European market I'd say there's a fair chance. Indeed I suspect that is what's going on with the Gaugmaster Class 66.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Les1952 said:

 

Following that link and the links at the top of the page revealed leads to 26 pages of electric locos  (over 250 items) that Tillig have made, 15 pages of steam locos (over 140 items) and 29 pages of diesels (over 280 locos).  OK, so these are Continental locos but not bad for a "minority scale nobody much is interested in".

 

There are also 68 pages (over 670 items) of bogie passenger coaches......

 

Les

 

 

 

However virtually all of it sells and ran east of the Rhine - and generally a fair way east of the Rhine

 

Western Europe is a desert where TT is concerned.

 

It's all very well citing things that ran or run in Continental Europe - but if they run in France, Italy, the Benelux, Switzerland or the Iberian Peninsular they don't count. Nobody in those areas models in TT. Therefore there is no Continental markey for them. You won't sell a TT WD 2-8-0 in the Netherlands - there are no TT modellers there. Only if the rolling stock made it as far east as Germany do you have a chance (So yes, a Dean Goods would work. Some were captured in WW2. But WW1 service doesn't work . Show me a French prototype 1:120 layout. They don't exist)

 

That's a significant complication. You can't use SNCF/FS/RENEFE/SNCB/NS ferry wagons for British TT-120. There's no Continental market for those - so they don't exist RTR

[eldomtom2]

Ravenser - what is your angle here? You seem determined to talk down 1:120 TT, and elsewhere have stated you are a member of the 3mm Society. Do you genuinely believe TT3 is a more viable scale than 1:120 TT?

[spamcan61]

12 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

 Do you genuinely believe TT3 is a more viable scale than 1:120 TT?

Well in a UK context it is at this point in time, there are actual products you can actually buy. Maybe in a few years it will be different. For the avoidance of doubt I'm not a member of the 3mm society but am interested in buying into a system smaller than 4mm but bigger than 2mm.

[britishcolumbian]

11 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

I want the 'naughty' figures that are avaliable in HO! Got to have a 'city sauna' in model form the scale difference will not be to noticable as humans are available in all different sizes!...hight!!...dirty mind....que the abuse!

Noch has nude figures in TT/1:120...

[andythenorth]

33 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

That's a significant complication. You can't use SNCF/FS/RENEFE/SNCB/NS ferry wagons for British TT-120. There's no Continental market for those - so they don't exist RTR

 

The Tillig website implies availability of SNCB and other Western European wagons - sliding wall vans, opens, etc, which implies market.  Accurately though, they're not ferry wagons and not UK-compatible etc due to loading gauge.

 

But is your axe sharp enough yet?  Or can we crowdfund you a grindstone, in the scale of your choice. 😜

 

I can see why you'd mention RENFE, but it's stretching the case a bit thin for TT:120, given Spanish broad gauge and generally slightly non-standard ferry wagon designs with interchangeable axles, and ultimately, a niche market. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by andythenorth

[britishcolumbian]

31 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

You won't sell a TT WD 2-8-0 in the Netherlands - there are no TT modellers there.

There is even a TT scale manufacturer in the Netherlands (PSK Modelbouw)... and yes they have done NS rolling stock.

[britishcolumbian]

I for one am super excited about this news. I've been involved in TT scale (1:120) for pushing 20 years now, focussing mostly on BC/Canadian and Hungarian subjects, but I've long dreamt of dabbling in a bit of British, but the scale mismatch has put me off. I know quite a few other TT scalers who feel the same way...

 

TT on the Continent has a big market of collectors, too, particularly in Germany, who will buy anything they like, regardless of where it's from. I'm more of the North American RPM mindset, and look for accuracy-to-location, but yeah... these should do well enough. I know they'll be getting some of my money at least!

[Nearholmer]

How many milliseconds will it be before someone exhibits a Minories in diesel era, in the scale that I think CJF first envisaged for the design?

 

Bring on the Mk1 suburban coaches and blue smoke making machines!

[Ravenser]

5 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

Ravenser - what is your angle here? You seem determined to talk down 1:120 TT, and elsewhere have stated you are a member of the 3mm Society. Do you genuinely believe TT3 is a more viable scale than 1:120 TT?

 

 

My angle is a degree of caution and realism.

 

British outline TT-120 is largely going to have to stand on its own two feet. The Continental cavalry ain't coming to save us.

 

There is no point pitching prototype stock on the basis that it also ran in Western Europe, as some are doing.That will add nothing to the sales. Class 66s are a serious proposition because they operate in Germany and Eastern Europe. Any British stock Freightliner and DB Schenker run over there is also a serious contender.

 

But I've seen people arguing for USA 0-6-0T tanks, S-160 and WD 2-8-0s , Austerity 0-6-0ts and 08s on the basis they ran on the Continent . That's irrelevant - they didn;'t run in the Soviet Bloc (for obvious reasons) so they won't sell to TT modellers on the Continent.

 

The J94 and 08 are good choices in British terms. They suit a modest sized shunting layout, anywhere in Britain, over the whole post war period. But the others? You'd do much better tooling up a GE Buckjumper, a Bulleid Q1 and an Adams O2 and G6

 

That's because those are all inside cylinder 0-6-0s (or an 0-4-4T). A deadscale gauge will have clearance and radius issues . A Q1 has exposed wheels with no running plate or splashers, and a high route availability . A Buckjumper has side tanks to hide the wheels in, and a short wheelbase. And they were widespread. A J69 will go with a green Brush 2, A Q1 and an O2 and you have a Southern branchline.

 

Going 3mm has been checked out and it's a non-starter. There seems to have been general agreement RTR 14.2mm wasn't even credible enough to be an option for evaluation. It had to be 12mm gauge, and the narrow gauge issue was very serious. The 3mm eco-system  is incredibly rich and it would have been a huge boost to be able to plug into it. But both Hornby and Rapido looked at it , and concluded the 3mm market could not generate enought sales to sustain RTR.

 

So we get TT-120. But it will mean creating a whole eco-system from scratch, and there will be only very limited support from the Continent. At present there's just one existing TT wagon that has been identified as running in Britain. That. interestingly, is Hornby-Arnold's only TT wagon in current production... It would be fine behind a Brush 2

[newbryford]

I wonder how quickly the 3D printer guys will scale existing stuff (or do new stuff) to 1/120 to fit RTR chassis?

[Vanguard 5374]

4 minutes ago, newbryford said:

I wonder how quickly the 3D printer guys will scale existing stuff (or do new stuff) to 1/120 to fit RTR chassis?

 

Why existing chassis? I'm doing a 0-6-0 Jinty chassis to make use of modified Graham Farish parts. The Bachmann spares website is a great resource for things, even if they don't look 100% right I am going to be happy with 95%+ accuracy for the sake of a few spokes on the driving wheels.

[Ravenser]

20 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

 

The Tillig website implies availability of SNCB and other Western European wagons - sliding wall vans, opens, etc, which implies market.  Accurately though, they're not ferry wagons and not UK-compatible etc due to loading gauge.

 

But is your axe sharp enough yet?  Or can we crowdfund you a grindstone, in the scale of your choice. 😜

 

I can see why you'd mention RENFE, but it's stretching the case a bit thin for TT:120, given Spanish broad gauge and generally slightly non-standard ferry wagon designs with interchangeable axles, and ultimately, a niche market. 

 

 

Since Western European wagons run in Germany and Eastern Europe, they will sell to modellers there. A German layout with only DB wagons is plain wrong. Like a GW branchline inhabited entirely by GW wagons.  (I remember a mordant comment from a caption in Southern Wagons - Vol 4 Pl. 7 - "in truth it portrays a very common sight, a Southern goods train without as far as we can see a single Southern wagon in it!")

 

So far that's the only little nibble at Western Europe in RTR TT

[andythenorth]

16 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

My angle is a degree of caution and realism.

 

Fair point.

 

Ferry wagons are a very specific niche which could be viably sold across European TT markets.  I agree that the the same probably doesn't extend to UK locomotives beyond a 66, except for collectors.

 

I'm looking at this though the very narrow lens of international freight stock from the last 50 years, per David Ratcliffe's book and Paul Bartlett's wagon photos.  Layouts might mostly be shunting planks and industrial settings, or simple roundy-roundy ovals with maybe 2 or 3 freight trains.

 

That route does nothing for the traditional steam-age branch line, or passenger services of any era etc.  But Rome wasn't built in a day etc. 

 

It's a good book by the way: https://www.amazon.co.uk/International-Wagons-Colour-Modeller-Historian/dp/0711034044

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by andythenorth

[newbryford]

7 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

 

Why existing chassis? I'm doing a 0-6-0 Jinty chassis to make use of modified Graham Farish parts. The Bachmann spares website is a great resource for things, even if they don't look 100% right I am going to be happy with 95%+ accuracy for the sake of a few spokes on the driving wheels.

 

Do Bachmann/Grafar do chassis in 12mm gauge?

[Ravenser]

1 minute ago, andythenorth said:

 

Fair point.

 

Ferry wagons are a very specific niche which could be viably sold across European TT markets.  I agree that the the same probably doesn't extend to UK locomotives beyond a 66, except for collectors.

 

I'm looking at this though the very narrow lens of freight stock from the last 50 years, per David Ratcliffe's book and Paul Bartlett's wagon photos.  Layouts might mostly be shunting planks and industrial settings, or simple roundy-roundy ovals with maybe 2 or 3 freight trains.

 

That route does nothing for the traditional steam-age branch line, or passenger services of any era etc.  But Rome wasn't built in a day etc. 

 

It's a good book by the way: https://www.amazon.co.uk/International-Wagons-Colour-Modeller-Historian/dp/0711034044

 

 

 

Noted . A Mk1 BCK + SK/TSO would do you for passenger stock on a Southern holiday branch. That would be a credible starting range of Mk1s - Worsley Works will surely make their 3mm etched Mk1 sides available in TT-120. Throw in a B set coach, and that's probably the initial offering. You might get a couple of plastic coach kits from Peco after a year or two.

 

They've dropped a heavy hint that a 3D printed Autotrailer might be on the cards once ther's somrthing credible o pull it 

 

I think 3D printing may play a big role in TT-120. The small size ought to reduce material costs and printing times, keeping the overall price down compared with the first attempts in OO. The ability to scale from CAD produced to other scales, and the fact it's a technology designed for small runs could  be very powerful here

[Vanguard 5374]

10 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Do Bachmann/Grafar do chassis in 12mm gauge?

 

It's all a case of looking at what is available and adapting. Just like bashing parts in any scale really.

[britishcolumbian]

32 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

But I've seen people arguing for USA 0-6-0T tanks, S-160 and WD 2-8-0s , Austerity 0-6-0ts and 08s on the basis they ran on the Continent . That's irrelevant - they didn;'t run in the Soviet Bloc (for obvious reasons) so they won't sell to TT modellers on the Continent.

 

An RTR USATC S160 would make Hungarian modellers fall in love with you, MÁV had several hundred of them.

[newbryford]

21 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

 

It's all a case of looking at what is available and adapting. Just like bashing parts in any scale really.

 

Quite, but I was asking about if any RTR chassis would be suitable for 3D bodies - not chopping bits about.

Using RTR chassis will create more impetus for the scale/gauge than having to make up running gear from parts.

if there's one thing that's near the top of many modellers not-want-to-do tasks, it's making motorised chassis.

 

 

I've made many kit chassis, but now heading towards the CBA camp when it comes to making mechs.

Edited June 15, 2022 by newbryford

[britishcolumbian]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

 

Quite, but I was asking about if any RTR chassis would be suitable for 3D bodies - not chopping bits about.

I've done a bunch of work analysing that with an eye to making North American models... when I'm home from work tonight I'll see if I can't find those notes.

[eldomtom2]

40 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

You'd do much better tooling up a GE Buckjumper, a Bulleid Q1 and an Adams O2 and G6

I cannot help but feel that there are better choices for inside-cylinder 0-6-0s...

[newbryford]

12 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

I cannot help but feel that there are better choices for inside-cylinder 0-6-0s...

 

J50 for me.......

Please - no one mention them thar paneers................... 

Edited June 15, 2022 by newbryford

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

I cannot help but feel that there are better choices for inside-cylinder 0-6-0s...

 

At present we have no ex LMS support on the cards

 

Yes a MR 0-6-0 chassis would open up a few avenues - 3D printed bodies could give a range of loco  kits to fit

 

But I'm assuming we'll get another announcement , from a bigger player than Heljan. Peco have hinted at a Pannier tank (the 2251 profile suggests to me 3D printed bodies to fit a rewheeled Pannier chassis). I'd expect one further loco to be announced, and some promises for the future (eg a Prairie?)

 

Not sure I see enough room in there for a MR 0-6-0 (surely a 4F?). Heljan's Brush 2 needs a companioin - unless we read something into Sheffield allocated locos being chosen???

 

[JohnR]

14 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

I cannot help but feel that there are better choices for inside-cylinder 0-6-0s...

 

Much as I would love the G6, I cant see it being anything other than a GW Pannier of some sort, or a LMS Jinty.