Hornby cuts model shops' allocations of items due summer 2022

[Mike Harvey]

On 26/07/2022 at 08:46, scottystitch said:

I said something similar in my reply to Hornby following the above email. In fact I suggested that retailers were being made to feel the pain of Hornby's messing up of ordering/allocation, whereas Hornby Direct were to feel no pain.  I suggested this was unfair.  This was the response:

 

"As I explained in my email to you, the Hornby Online service is a separate and legitimate route to market that has been part of Hornby’s distribution framework for over twenty years. I also explained that as the Online team do not discount it is not unreasonable to assume that their allocation will still be left unsold until all others who do discount have sold or presold theirs."

 

A completely irrelevant response but, in simple terms, "We messed up (again), but we're not going to carry the can for it, you (the retailer & customer potentially) are."

 

Best

 

Scott.

 

 

 

 

 

If their online sales operation is at arm's length, then it does not meet what Hornby expect of a Tier 1 shop in having efficient order handling, so maybe should not receive preferential supply quotas. I have been buying new release Arnold items through the online shop for several years and I know that every year, when the items are delivered, I will have to contact Hornby for a refund of the excess postage. The way it works is that I place all the orders together for items which from experience I know always arrive in the same delivery batch, which would qualify for free postage. Hornby separates them into individual orders with individual postage charges. The goods all arrive with me together packed in a single parcel, and I reclaim the postage charges for half a dozen items, each invoiced individually and refunded individually. I have given up trying to suggest that this a waste of their time and effort, and my time, effort and expense. Are there other Tier 1 stores struggling to recognise the nonsense of charging six lots of postage for one "free" delivery?

[jjb1970]

I guess a lot depends on the contractual arrangements in place with the actual manufacturers in China, what sort of flexibility might be available, lead times to adjust production numbers, rescheduling items if they misjudge demand etc, as well as conditions for the manufacturers (are they looking for work, fully booked, do they maintain some spare capacity solely to allow themselves to exploit opportunities etc?). As with any service agreement, Hornby will get what they signed up for and pay for.

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

That is the root of the problem IMHO, if they announced the models and took retailer orders before production qtys. were set a lot of this mess would be avoided. OK there could then be a 2-3 year wait before the product turns up,

 

About a year would be more normal.

 

In the US Athearn announces product monthly with an order deadline on the last Friday of the month and the eta for delivery is a year later.  Before the current shipping issues and other things of the last 2 years they were able to meet that schedule.

 

I believe Rapido North America similarly was able until the current issues to generally ship within a year of an order deadline (for them it can seem longer as they announce earlier in the production process so the order deadline is often months after announcement).

 

Longer than a year would really only happen if you announce early in the development process where research/tooling issues could cause unforeseen delays.

[adb968008]

Have we seen 2021 or earlier orders cut back, or just 2022 range ?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Have we seen 2021 or earlier orders cut back, or just 2022 range ?

It's actually gone on (on and off) for years). I first experienced it with the first release of GWR 8 coupled tanks when my local retailer's regular order of new release locos plus any additional pre-orders was reduced from 20+ to 1; the rest of us had to wait nearly 18 months for ours to arrive.

 

If you look at the Tiers thread the situation which led to the creation of the tiers was a direct result of retailers pre-orders being reduced by 'allocation'.  And there are known instances - as mentioned by AY, where retailers orders were allocated and it appears that the models then went out via Hornby direct sales routes.  So allocation isn't novel but people were led to believe that tiers would resolve the situation - although that basically meant that orders would be rationed down teh tiers once the tier above had received what it had ordered.  That clearly is not the case now as I now a Tier 1 retailer who suffered allocation and the rump of hs prder for that item was all found to be damaged on delivery.

[john new]

Today's dilemma - I see Hornby still have the Rowntrees Ruston available for pre-order and now stated as for this Autumn (I had it on pre-order before but that order got cancelled by the dealer). I would rather buy from a dealer with a proper bricks and mortar shop rather than direct from Hornby but cannot guarantee if I do that they will get a delivery! We are being forced into the buy direct route. Looks like, whether I want to or not, that it will have to be a Hornby direct order or no loco. Not fair on dealers, and I am not happy.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by john new

[adb968008]

Yes but not quite context, I meant for retailers in 2022, are they seeing 2021’s, 2020’s outstanding orders cut back too ?

 

Where i’m going is, if 2022 was oversold, and the email a few pages back is to be swallowed hole, then its possible Hornby reduced its order book at the factory, afterall, theyve decades of experience knowing estimated sales volumes… if 2021’s etc are being reduced also, then it might point towards a some rationale of a reduction from China, as 2021’s are now 1year plus, and before all this Tiers rubbish kicked in, and plenty of time to know volumes and place orders.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by adb968008

[ThaneofFife]

what an unholy debacle.......

[SHMD]

...so basically, Hornby Direct has first dibs on everybody else's stock if things sell well?

 

 

Kev.

 

[Plomax]

Seems logical to me. Hornby sell first dibs of new stock to retailers that don't have a vested interest in other competitors...... i.e Rails, Hatton's etc

 

Why would you continue to sell large numbers to those who they will be in direct competition in sales with....

 

It benefits the smaller high street model shop. has to be a win win

Edited August 4, 2022 by Plomax

[phil gollin]

.

 

Well,  IF  Hornby are favouring non-competitor shops why did I receive this e-mail today ?

 

" .... Thank you for your order for R30112 * Hornby Dublo: BR Merchant Navy 35026 Lamport Holt

As you may be aware, Hornby have struggled to fulfil pre-orders this year, despite having given us an initial allocation to sell. This will be the third time that our allocation for these models has been reduced this year, despite being a Tier 1 retailer.

I am very sorry that the latest allocation means that we are unable to fulfil your order and we have had to cancel this. You may not be surprised to learn there is a good chance you will still be able to place a new order direct with Hornby for this model.

I hope you can understand that this is outside of our control, I can only apologise again for this.
Many thanks
Sammy
Kernow Model Rail Centre  ...

 

Guess what,  I ordered one direct from Hornby.

 

.

[Plomax]

That happens to....... Happened to me when trying to pre-order a Dublo SNG.

 

There are known problems in the far east in terms of production and numbers as we all know - so could also be down to that. Other manufacturers are also experiencing the same! -Or they over allocated which is also a possibility.....

[MikeParkin65]

39 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Well,  IF  Hornby are favouring non-competitor shops why did I receive this e-mail today ?

 

" .... Thank you for your order for R30112 * Hornby Dublo: BR Merchant Navy 35026 Lamport Holt

As you may be aware, Hornby have struggled to fulfil pre-orders this year, despite having given us an initial allocation to sell. This will be the third time that our allocation for these models has been reduced this year, despite being a Tier 1 retailer.

I am very sorry that the latest allocation means that we are unable to fulfil your order and we have had to cancel this. You may not be surprised to learn there is a good chance you will still be able to place a new order direct with Hornby for this model.

I hope you can understand that this is outside of our control, I can only apologise again for this.
Many thanks
Sammy
Kernow Model Rail Centre  ...

 

Guess what,  I ordered one direct from Hornby.

 

.

I can happily and with conviction say I will never buy from Hornby direct. Doesnt matter what they make, there are alternatives. Or I will do without - like most I am over stocked anyway so new items are discretionary purchases.

 

I will only buy RTR from manufacturers that properly support the trade, 

[AY Mod]

16 minutes ago, Plomax said:

There are known problems in the far east in terms of production and numbers as we all know - so could also be down to that.

 

It's worth re-reading the whole topic to evaluate that point of view.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Plomax said:

Seems logical to me. Hornby sell first dibs of new stock to retailers that don't have a vested interest in other competitors...... i.e Rails, Hatton's etc

 

Why would you continue to sell large numbers to those who they will be in direct competition in sales with....

 

It benefits the smaller high street model shop. has to be a win win

Short supplying those outlets with the ability to obtain production of models independently of Hornby will only encourage them to do more of it, so as to protect existing levels of turnover in their business.

 

Hornby ought to be better off with those businesses buying from them rather than commissioning direct from Chinese factories, and competing for production slots that Hornby themselves want/need.

 

It's easy to envisage a spiral developing with

 

• Hornby cutting deliveries to larger retailers through under-production (and diverting models for direct sales).

 

• Those retailers ceasing to bother ordering from a firm that's lost their confidence and "going direct" for ever more product to maintain their own trading volume.

 

• Hornby find it even harder to get their stuff made in sufficient quantities and, when they can, perhaps finding that their end-customers have already committed their model-buying funds to others.....  

 

As for any of this debacle benefitting "smaller high street model shops"; many/most of those have been consistently suffering similar behaviour from Hornby for decades.

 

The ultimate aim in all this (IMHO) is to move Hornby to a position where they don't need any retailers.

 

John

Edited August 4, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[jjb1970]

2 hours ago, Plomax said:

Seems logical to me. Hornby sell first dibs of new stock to retailers that don't have a vested interest in other competitors...... i.e Rails, Hatton's etc

 

Why would you continue to sell large numbers to those who they will be in direct competition in sales with....

 

It benefits the smaller high street model shop. has to be a win win

 

The relationship between Hornby and Rails broke down a while ago and now Rails appear to be managing well enough without Hornby.

 

For other shops, if Hornby accepted orders they should be fulfilled. If there's a shortage my personal opinion is that Hornby should divert stock from Hornby direct to fulfill as many existing orders as possible. If Hornby don't want to support retailers that's fine and it's their call to make but there seems to be something profoundly not right about using and abusing retailers in the way Hornby have been doing. Either stand by them or be honest and tell retailers what they really mean to Hornby. I think that's what people dislike, it's made worse when people compare Hornby's shoddy treatment of retailers with the commitment Bachmann and others show to their retailers.

[MidlandRed]

Around half way through this thread (of 18 pages in one month), I’m pretty sure someone posted an email received from Hornby apologising profusely for the matter and stating that a new system had been put in place to avoid having to cut dealer pre-ordered allocations in future.

 

Surely we should wait to see how that pans out before trying to pre-guess and reinvent wheels?

 

As someone has just stated, they have re-pre-ordered with Hornby direct (I did that in the first place owing to previous experience - and the experience of missing out on certain models from other manufacturers, which I still haven’t been able to backfill, owing to dealer issues in the first place). 
 

Someone has also just posted that their model purchases are discretionary, and they would not be ordering direct from the manufacturer as they want to support dealers. 
 

I suppose it depends how much you want the model - or whether your primary aim is to support local dealers. 
 

I think local dealers are an essential part of the hobby and to be supported but I do wonder at people ‘boycotting’ manufacturer direct purchases, in the case of Hornby, in response to this matter - I’m sure people (though not all) direct order from newer firms like Accurascale and Rapido.
 

I’m afraid that direct sales are part of the whole of retail these days, like it or not. I recently wanted a pair of trainers of a particular spec - whilst I could have wandered around various High St (or shopping mall stores) the chance of happening upon the exact spec was not high - I ordered the exact spec I wanted on line and I’m pretty sure Messrs Bluewater and local Sports Direct didn’t miss me that much - I certainly didn’t miss traipsing around shops full of teenagers on school holidays! 

 

Do we really need to be expressing ‘outraged of Tunbridge Wells’ type sentiment for 18 pages and a month about this Hornby matter, particularly where we’ve seen an explanation and promise to put it right, albeit indirectly possibly 9 pages ago?

 

Just another thought - dealers don’t always get it right - we’ve heard about people missing out on a recent very popular model (or maybe it was the manufacturer getting the details wrong - we have not heard). Nothing to do with this issue with Hornby but just another thought. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by MidlandRed

[APOLLO]

There are huge and ever increasing problems over in China.

 

Look at the titles of these videos, tells you everything. Very recent vids also, just a few days / weeks old.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwjvvgGX6oby5mZ3gbDe8Ug/videos

 

With the worrying news about Taiwan (and Russia / Ukraine) I think model train availability will be the very least of our problems soon.

 

Brit15

 

 

[jjb1970]

After re-reading the Hornby e-mail and thinking about it more I think it is a carefully written and very disingenuous bit of PR spin to evade responsibility.

 

We don't want to blame someone who can't defend themselves, but we are going to blame someone who can't defend themselves. And while we're at it spread a bit of the muck towards China. No acknowledgement that any system of such importance which hangs off a single individual with no supervision indicates a systemic failure down to Hornby. Given the numerous previous problems the company has had with order fulfillment I'd have expected them to have made the effort to put a resilient system in place long ago. And it side stepped the whole issue of hanging retailers out to dry to face the ire of their customers after placing orders in good faith while stocking up their own direct sales shop.

 

I agree that we can only hope that Hornby are true to their word and see better performance in future but it all leaves a bad taste. But, I won't be boycotting them.

[Matt C]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

Around half way through this thread (of 18 pages in one month), I’m pretty sure someone posted an email received from Hornby apologising profusely for the matter and stating that a new system had been put in place to avoid having to cut dealer pre-ordered allocations in future.

 

Surely we should wait to see how that pans out before trying to pre-guess and reinvent wheels?

 

As someone has just stated, they have re-pre-ordered with Hornby direct (I did that in the first place owing to previous experience - and the experience of missing out on certain models from other manufacturers, which I still haven’t been able to backfill, owing to dealer issues in the first place). 
 

Someone has also just posted that their model purchases are discretionary, and they would not be ordering direct from the manufacturer as they want to support dealers. 
 

I suppose it depends how much you want the model - or whether your primary aim is to support local dealers. 
 

I think local dealers are an essential part of the hobby and to be supported but I do wonder at people ‘boycotting’ manufacturer direct purchases, in the case of Hornby, in response to this matter - I’m sure people (though not all) direct order from newer firms like Accurascale and Rapido.
 

I’m afraid that direct sales are part of the whole of retail these days, like it or not. I recently wanted a pair of trainers of a particular spec - whilst I could have wandered around various High St (or shopping mall stores) the chance of happening upon the exact spec was not high - I ordered the exact spec I wanted on line and I’m pretty sure Messrs Bluewater and local Sports Direct didn’t miss me that much - I certainly didn’t miss traipsing around shops full of teenagers on school holidays! 

 

Do we really need to be expressing ‘outraged of Tunbridge Wells’ type sentiment for 18 pages and a month about this Hornby matter, particularly where we’ve seen an explanation and promise to put it right, albeit indirectly possibly 9 pages ago?

 

Just another thought - dealers don’t always get it right - we’ve heard about people missing out on a recent very popular model (or maybe it was the manufacturer getting the details wrong - we have not heard). Nothing to do with this issue with Hornby but just another thought. 

 

Yes people order direct from Accurascale. Accurascale sold out of thier allocation and have Actively directed customers to place orders with thier network of dealers who may still have had pre order stock available. 

Hornby on the other hand 

1) wont tell anyone which of thier dealers are tier one so MIGHT have had a chance of stock

2) DRASTICALLY cut allocations of stock  for orders ALREADY accepted from those dealers

And yet they are STILL accepting direct pre orders for the very same items

Do you really find that kind of behaviour in any way acceptable ? 

I'm sorry but I think the excuse given by Hornby will be taken with a very large pinch of Salt by most who read it

Edited August 4, 2022 by Matt C
Typo

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Plomax said:

Seems logical to me. Hornby sell first dibs of new stock to retailers that don't have a vested interest in other competitors...... i.e Rails, Hatton's etc

 

Why would you continue to sell large numbers to those who they will be in direct competition in sales with....

 

Most of the large grocery retailers around the world today seem to have house brand products that they sell alongside the major brands - do you think to choose a random example Heinz should pull their products due to this?  Or is it okay to benefit from the choice of product when it is food?

 

And while I'm not familiar with the UK currently certainly here in North America the retailers having their own brand isn't restricted to just groceries.

 

3 hours ago, Plomax said:

It benefits the smaller high street model shop. has to be a win win

 

It doesn't benefit them - not when Hornby cancels their pre-orders while mysteriously having abundant stock to continue offering for sale direct from Hornby...

[Bucoops]

4 hours ago, phil gollin said:

 

 

Guess what,  I ordered one direct from Hornby.

 

.

 

You prerogative, of course, and if you really really want one then that's probably the "right" way to get one, but it feels like you are falling right into their trap.

[newbryford]

26 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

You prerogative, of course, and if you really really want one then that's probably the "right" way to get one, but it feels like you are falling right into their trap.

 

And we all know who the Evil Empire is.....

 

[shunny]

6 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Well,  IF  Hornby are favouring non-competitor shops why did I receive this e-mail today ?

 

" .... Thank you for your order for R30112 * Hornby Dublo: BR Merchant Navy 35026 Lamport Holt

As you may be aware, Hornby have struggled to fulfil pre-orders this year, despite having given us an initial allocation to sell. This will be the third time that our allocation for these models has been reduced this year, despite being a Tier 1 retailer.

I am very sorry that the latest allocation means that we are unable to fulfil your order and we have had to cancel this. You may not be surprised to learn there is a good chance you will still be able to place a new order direct with Hornby for this model.

I hope you can understand that this is outside of our control, I can only apologise again for this.
Many thanks
Sammy
Kernow Model Rail Centre  ...

 

Guess what,  I ordered one direct from Hornby.

 

.

The odd thing about this is that the model is ltd edition of 500 according to Hornby. So either Hornby can't count to 500 when allocating these at time of announcement or if the factory have said they can't deliver the quantity then this will mean it's an even smaller ltd edition than Hornby claimed?

Either way something very odd going on if a fixed number ltd edition is being cut 7 months after its announced.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Around half way through this thread (of 18 pages in one month), I’m pretty sure someone posted an email received from Hornby apologising profusely for the matter and stating that a new system had been put in place to avoid having to cut dealer pre-ordered allocations in future.

 

The tiers system was introduced in order to do that and to replace, with a meaningful system, what amounted to a totally uncontrolled way of 'allocating' models .  Problem is that it simply hasn't worked out like that especially this year when as noted above even a Tier 1 retailer is being 'allocated' and then further 'allocated'.

 

Allocation is nothing new with Hornby - it's been happening for years and tiers were supposed to reduce, if not eliminate, the chances of it happening.  But a new feature is that not only are retailers orders being cut after they had been accepted - presumably in good faith - but end customers are then being advised to go to Hornby's direct sales route.  If 'allocation' was applied even handedly over all their sales routes surely the number of models available for direct sale would also be reduced - but that appears not to be the case.

 

So the situation remains quite simple -

either Hornby are overselling when they take retailers' orders in the big January rush,

or they are diverting stock to direct sales in excess of the original quantity allocated to that sale route by reducing retailers' deliveries,

or the factories are short supplying Hornby and retailers are bearing the brunt of that failure in supply chain management,

or it is a combination of any or all of these factors.

 

In some respects it doesn't really matter which of those it is in terms of what needs to be done to resolve the issues because all of them are symptomatic of various areas of managerial shortcoming;  they are something which Hornby's management should be putting right.  Tiers were a quick way of doing something to improve things but even that system seems to have failed to achieve what it set out to do.