Hornby cancel Titfield Thunderbolt

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

a full herd of Lions!

I thought it was a ‘pride’ of lions. Though it sounds like for Hornby the related term ‘hubris’ might be more appropriate in this case…

 

13 hours ago, JohnR said:

‘Hornby Hobbies Ltd. have decided to remove the two ‘Trains of Film’ packs from the Hornby 2022 product range and acknowledges and accepts that Studiocanal owns the licensing rights to the ‘Thunderbolt’ locomotive as depicted in the ‘Titfield Thunderbolt’ film as well as Dan Taylor’s grounded carriage body.’

I’m not really affected by this personally but, as a point of interest, will the previous Titfield Thunderbolt sets Hornby has issued in the past be affected in some way by the licensing issues? As I recall (having seen them in shops etc.) these were done some years ago and already included the ‘grounded coach body on well wagon’ coach, even if the rest of the set was made up of items lifted from the main range.

[5Dublo2]

5 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I’m not really affected by this personally but, as a point of interest, will the previous Titfield Thunderbolt sets Hornby has issued in the past be affected in some way by the licensing issues? As I recall (having seen them in shops etc.) these were done some years ago and already included the ‘grounded coach body on well wagon’ coach, even if the rest of the set was made up of items lifted from the main range.

 

I believe Hornby may have had a legitimate agreement for rights in  place at the time - so no, there is  no effect on items released when different legal agreements were active

 

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, HExpressD said:

Maybe, but again zooming out from RM Web for a moment the average model railway customer may never heard of Rapido, the hoo-haa about the Titfield Thunderbolt and they may not keep much of an eye on the modelling press. There will be a significant number of people that go to Hornby as it's the name that they know and may occasionally check Hattons/RoS. Boldly, and perhaps against the grain I'd predict that this will be a good move for Hornby once all the pitchforks have been put down. 

 

I generally agree with what you are saying, but in light of the other current thread about Hornby annoying their retailers by failing to supply stock I wonder how many retailers will take orders for the new Hornby Lion product let alone promote it to their customers - if you as a retailer can't rely on Hornby to satisfy your customer orders you are going to instead guide those customers to Rapido's offerings which the retailer will have faith in getting what they order.

 

So I think the proverbial jury will be out as to whether this will be a good move - Lion is a very niche interest product to have 2 competing products and with Hornby hurting their chances by playing games with their retailers.

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

I generally agree with what you are saying, but in light of the other current thread about Hornby annoying their retailers by failing to supply stock I wonder how many retailers will take orders for the new Hornby Lion product let alone promote it to their customers - if you as a retailer can't rely on Hornby to satisfy your customer orders you are going to instead guide those customers to Rapido's offerings which the retailer will have faith in getting what they order.

 

So I think the proverbial jury will be out as to whether this will be a good move - Lion is a very niche interest product to have 2 competing products and with Hornby hurting their chances by playing games with their retailers.

I’m still thinking it whiffs…

 

15 months since announcement and all we have is a catalogue number and a blacked out box… 

 

i’ll believe it when I see evidence of real investment into it… to be fair to Hornby I think a couple of models from a few companies are looking aspirational at the moment… thing is to get money you need results.

Edited July 5, 2022 by adb968008

[Bucoops]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Even with stiff competition this evening.

 

I'm impressed how Hornby managed to arrange such high level shenanigans to take the attention off their own woes.

[Dunsignalling]

Hornby.

 

Inspired by....an over-developed sense of entitlement.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

What's that whirring sound I can hear?

Oh, it's Frank Hornby spinning in his grave!

 

Mike.

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I generally agree with what you are saying, but in light of the other current thread about Hornby annoying their retailers by failing to supply stock I wonder how many retailers will take orders for the new Hornby Lion product let alone promote it to their customers - if you as a retailer can't rely on Hornby to satisfy your customer orders you are going to instead guide those customers to Rapido's offerings which the retailer will have faith in getting what they order.

 

So I think the proverbial jury will be out as to whether this will be a good move - Lion is a very niche interest product to have 2 competing products and with Hornby hurting their chances by playing games with their retailers.

I very much doubt that the "state-of-development" of Hornby's "Lion" at the time Rapido announced theirs amounted to more than a photo in the bottom of a drawer labelled "possible future products",

 

I'm not saying that Hornby won't make a model of it, they were probably cocky enough to continue working on it whilst being "dealt with" by Studiocanal. However, I reckon Rapido will have sold all theirs and moved on to the model after the model after that, by the time it emerges....

 

As for pre-ordering, best hold your nose and do it direct with Hornby. The fiction that they can be relied upon to supply anything more desirable than re-runs of last-year's headline-grabbers via their long-suffering dealer network has well-and-truly been exposed. Hornby are ensuring they get first bite of the cherry with new releases; simple as that.

 

John

Edited July 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

if retailers fail to order, and it’s left to the public to order direct ..

 

it’s niche as niche gets, those who know Lion will probably know Rapido, with an RRP of £179 and shelf price c£150  the rest is down to casual interest and a willingness to pay £239 at Hornby.com apparently with delivery in Autumn 2022

It could be a litmus test, to see how much Hornby can be self sufficient / viable on its website.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by adb968008

[Aire Head]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

it’s niche as niche gets, those who know Lion will probably know Rapido,

 

Given the conversations on the Hornby Facebook page after the announcement it was very surprising to see the amount of people who unaware of Rapido and unaware of what prompted this whole saga to begin with. More than few just assumed it was lawyers bullying poor old Hornby?

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Aire Head said:

 

Given the conversations on the Hornby Facebook page after the announcement it was very surprising to see the amount of people who unaware of Rapido and unaware of what prompted this whole saga to begin with. More than few just assumed it was lawyers bullying poor old Hornby?

 

I like to think the average RMweb reader is a little better informed. ;)

[Dunsignalling]

In the past, it's not been unknown (!) for retailers to be told, "if you want a, b and c, on your order list, you also need to order x, y, and z....."

Edited July 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Given the conversations on the Hornby Facebook page after the announcement it was very surprising to see the amount of people who unaware of Rapido and unaware of what prompted this whole saga to begin with. More than few just assumed it was lawyers bullying poor old Hornby?

Yes but are they willing spenders ?

 

is it enough?

 

£239 for a single loco that’s not a high street name, not much bigger than a 16t mineral, is a very long way from £199 for a world famous Rocket and 3 carriages two years ago.

 

If I were a retailer, with choice of both, I’d have a Rapido one on my shelf and a willingness to buy a Hornby one to order if the customer insists on paying c£90 more and is willing to wait.

 

but I still fall back on Quality, I’ve not seen much of that from Hornby in 2022… and that to me would be the hill it might die on…

 

A cheap Terrier or a 66 it is not, and the roles are reversed this time, Hornby is the higher priced one with a challenger that is much cheaper and a reputation for greater accuracy, detail, quality and striving to gain a retail network.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by adb968008

[Aire Head]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I like to think the average RMweb reader is a little better informed. ;)

 

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. I was speaking about the community in general.

 

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Yes but are they willing spenders ?

 

is it enough?

 

£239 for a single loco that’s not a high street name, not much bigger than a 16t mineral, is a very long way from £199 for a world famous Rocket and 3 carriages two years ago.

 

That remains to be seen but the general impression I get is that Rapido are quite happy with their sales so it will remain to be seen how Hornby fares with theirs.

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the past, it's not been unknown (!) for retailers to be told, "if you want a, b and c, on your order list, you also need to order x, y, and z....."

 

 

Is there a risk ordering abcxyz but finding abc  get canceled but end up lumbered with xyz ?

 

Indeed might xyz arrive first, eat your balance sheet and find abc are canceled later down the road ?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by adb968008

[Legend]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Yes but are they willing spenders ?

 

is it enough?

 

£239 for a single loco that’s not a high street name, not much bigger than a 16t mineral, is a very long way from £199 for a world famous Rocket and 3 carriages two years ago.

 

If I were a retailer, with choice of both, I’d have a Rapido one on my shelf and a willingness to buy a Hornby one to order if the customer insists on paying c£90 more and is willing to wait.

 

but I still fall back on Quality, I’ve not seen much of that from Hornby in 2022… and that to me would be the hill it might die on…

 

A cheap Terrier or a 66 it is not, and the roles are reversed this time, Hornby is the higher priced one with a challenger that is much cheaper and a reputation for greater accuracy, detail and quality.

Time will see if Hornby is mauled by Lion or if it’s Hornbys bark is bigger than a Lion bites.

 

 

 

 

Firstly I'm glad I'm not a retailer having to deal with Hornby 

 

Secondly If I was a retailer Id be doing my utmost to lessen dependence on Hornby or even do without  . How can you deal with a company that cuts your allocation from 37 to 1 with one stroke of the pen  or who tells you the paint they've been supplying you is unfit (but then someone else finds out you can sell it) but they'll only credit you for the stuff you've bought in last 6 months .

 

Is there any point a retailer ordering Lion ?  Looks like allocation goes to Hornby direct and you only get one to sell , if any . 

 

Its just too much trouble to deal with this company .  Its challenges to the competition and support to its retailer network stink .

 

 

[Black 5 Bear]

8 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Firstly I'm glad I'm not a retailer having to deal with Hornby 

 

Secondly If I was a retailer Id be doing my utmost to lessen dependence on Hornby or even do without  . How can you deal with a company that cuts your allocation from 37 to 1 with one stroke of the pen  or who tells you the paint they've been supplying you is unfit (but then someone else finds out you can sell it) but they'll only credit you for the stuff you've bought in last 6 months .

 

Is there any point a retailer ordering Lion ?  Looks like allocation goes to Hornby direct and you only get one to sell , if any . 

 

Its just too much trouble to deal with this company .  Its challenges to the competition and support to its retailer network stink .

 

 

Spot on post Russell!

[Matt C]

38 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the past, it's not been unknown (!) for retailers to be told, "if you want a, b and c, on your order list, you also need to order x, y, and z....

 

These days if I was a retailer of Hornby products and that came through I would suggest that they f,o

[PaulRhB]

33 minutes ago, Legend said:

Is there any point a retailer ordering Lion ?  Looks like allocation goes to Hornby direct and you only get one to sell , if any . 

Yes because as the Hornby Facebook has shown many are unaware of the other shenanigans behind all this. 
There’s a huge casual market beyond the keener enthusiasts and for many Hornby is the safe brand to buy regardless, much like people go to Apple or Microsoft knowing some of the similar responses to issues. 
Hornby won’t let the finer detail of this get on the tv programme, they’ll demand it doesn’t as part of the filming as it would be so potentially damaging to image. You might see it passed off as we can’t get the licences. 
Kernow have stopped taking pre orders but they are obviously still taking stock and know it will sell. Stopping stocking it just throws away business to competitors and if they’re buying Hornby there then they’ll get the track etc at the same time to save postage. 
Retailers may be irritated but they know others will fill the gap if they leave it open. 
I cancelled my direct orders with Hornby and I’ll just see what my local gets. Lion I ordered from Rapido instead because of the tactics I disagree with. It’s the only way I can show support for the traditional system and Hornby won’t care. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

16 minutes ago, Matt C said:

These days if I was a retailer of Hornby products and that came through I would suggest that they f,o

It’s written, or certainly was, in the contracts that you have to take a certain amount of other stock. I’ve had the local shops moan a few times that Hornby used up their credit with a box of random stuff a couple of weeks before new releases arrived. 
Clearing space for a delivery in the warehouse probably. 

[Edwardian]

I already have a View concerning the quality of very senior management of this cherished but sadly rather tainted brand, so I'm not as shocked or surprised at this debacle as I suspect one should be. Suffice it to say it's a Downing Street-level unnecessary own goal, by what alchemy of incompetence, hubris and lack of standards I cannot say and don't much care!

 

And yes, this reads exactly like something Studio Canal's lawyers wrote and made Hornby publish. Deeply humiliating. 

 

As ever, I tend at these moments to feel most sympathy for all those talented and well-meaning folk who work for the brand. 

[Dunsignalling]

56 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

Is there a risk ordering abcxyz but finding abc  get canceled but end up lumbered with xyz ?

 

Indeed might xyz arrive first, eat your balance sheet and find abc are canceled later down the road ?

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on....

[Matt C]

19 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s written, or certainly was, in the contracts that you have to take a certain amount of other stock. I’ve had the local shops moan a few times that Hornby used up their credit with a box of random stuff a couple of weeks before new releases arrived. 
Clearing space for a delivery in the warehouse probably. 

 

I think you should look at the point your making from the other side. . The new releases ARENT arriving, they are being cancelled or cut drastically so Hornby are surely breaching any contract, in spirit if not in law

[PaulRhB]

14 minutes ago, Matt C said:

 

I think you should look at the point you’re making from the other side. . The new releases AREN’T arriving, they are being cancelled or cut drastically so Hornby are surely breaching any contract, in spirit if not in law

I think you’ve missed my point that was in support of shops ;) 
I fully sympathise with the shops but as you’ve guessed the spirit and legal standing are somewhat different. That mucking around had been going on for a long time and lead to one shop cancelling their account for several years and using a wholesaler. They only went back when assured it would happen no longer . . .
 

I looked at the other side by cancelling direct orders with Hornby, my local was pretty sure they wouldn’t get a full set when I asked so I went direct on the Coronation coaches, now only the local shop orders stand and I’m quite prepared to do without if they muck the shop around by further reducing numbers. 
It’s not much of a protest but it’s all I can do to support my local two shops. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Matt C]

I wonder what tier one status actually gets you now, the CHANCE that one day if Hornby  Do find a Unicorn you MIGHT get one (Sorry we cancelled your chance, we've sold all the chances in our online shop so non are available. Unless YOU want to buy a chance in our shop ???)