Hornby cancel Titfield Thunderbolt

[The Stationmaster]

I appreciate that it is only minor blips but Hornby's share price is rather like the fiddler's elbow this morning albeit over a very small price range.  An hour back it was down 4.71% but currently it's up 1.36%. It will be interesting to see if anyone with larger holdings (I don't mean the big two) also dumps any stock today?

 

In the meanwhile I do wonder if Hornby's treatment of retailers is actually part of a strategy?  Yes I know that sounds a bit excessive for them and of course this sort of thing isn't new with either the present management or from times before the immediately previous management but the more they upset retailers the more likely the latter will do a Rails and walk.   

 

Rails seem to have managed quite well without Hornby, Hattons didn't collapse when they were cast into the wilderness of what is probably Tier 3 from having been one of Hornby's biggest retailers so survival is not impossible.  a lot will come down to the way today's retailers approach their own markets but clearly there is enough stuff around nowadays for at least some in the retail trade to be able to ignore the dictats from Margate and thrive.

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, thetrains said:

I mentioned Simon Kholer and he said well he's gone recently, I said you sure -yes

 

I have no evidence that that's the case; in fact evidence to the contrary so can we just kill that one before someone starts riding that hobbyhorse around?

[HonestTom]

14 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought it was a ‘pride’ of lions. Though it sounds like for Hornby the related term ‘hubris’ might be more appropriate in this case…

 

I’m not really affected by this personally but, as a point of interest, will the previous Titfield Thunderbolt sets Hornby has issued in the past be affected in some way by the licensing issues? As I recall (having seen them in shops etc.) these were done some years ago and already included the ‘grounded coach body on well wagon’ coach, even if the rest of the set was made up of items lifted from the main range.

That set was produced in cooperation with StudioCanal and included a DVD of the film. Which makes the current situation even more baffling. What would they have said had things gone further? "I can't believe we went to all that trouble to get the rights last time, when we could have just said 'inspired by' instead!" Totally bonkers.

5 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Given the conversations on the Hornby Facebook page after the announcement it was very surprising to see the amount of people who unaware of Rapido and unaware of what prompted this whole saga to begin with. More than few just assumed it was lawyers bullying poor old Hornby?

No doubt Hornby curates the replies on their social media carefully. They like to present themselves as this friendly, nostalgic, your-dad's-toy-trains company, so I doubt they'd discourage such misinterpretation. It's beneficial to their reputation in the wake of this to allow themselves to be presented as the David to StudioCanal's Goliath.

[JohnR]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I have no evidence that that's the case; in fact evidence to the contrary so can we just kill that one before someone starts riding that hobbyhorse around?

 

Also, I wouldnt describe Lyndon Davies as "new" - when did this conversation happen? 2017?

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

 

Rails seem to have managed quite well without Hornby, Hattons didn't collapse when they were cast into the wilderness of what is probably Tier 3 from having been one of Hornby's biggest retailers so survival is not impossible.  a lot will come down to the way today's retailers approach their own markets but clearly there is enough stuff around nowadays for at least some in the retail trade to be able to ignore the dictats from Margate and thrive.

What might happen is that those retailers commissioning their own items also act as a sort of wholesaler and also sell on through other model shops.

It could benefit both as the product would be seen by a wider audience and presumably produce more sales.

 

I think this has happened with the odd item.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, HonestTom said:

That set was produced in cooperation with StudioCanal and included a DVD of the film. Which makes the current situation even more baffling. What would they have said had things gone further? "I can't believe we went to all that trouble to get the rights last time, when we could have just said 'inspired by' instead!" Totally bonkers.

If that’s the case then the current situation just seems bizarre. Presumably the previous agreement ‘ran out’, but surely it should just be a case of negotiating a renewal of the old agreement this time round?

[Harlequin]

17 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

If that’s the case then the current situation just seems bizarre. Presumably the previous agreement ‘ran out’, but surely it should just be a case of negotiating a renewal of the old agreement this time round?

 

I believe Rapido had already grabbed the rights before Hornby thought about doing any new products based on the film. Maybe Hornby tried some sort of negotiation at that point but if Rapido had invested time and money by then they would not want to relinquish the rights. At that point Hornby would have had nowhere to go - but they tried to go there anyway! Like a cartoon character walking off a cliff and standing in mid-air for a few seconds before falling like a stone.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[009 micro modeller]

Just now, Harlequin said:

 

I believe Rapido had already grabbed the rights before Hornby thought about doing any new products based on the film. Maybe they tried some sort of negotiation at that point but if Rapido had invested time and money by then they would not want to relinquish the rights. At that point Hornby would have had nowhere to go - but they tried to go there anyway! Like a cartoon character walking off a cliff and standing in mid-air for a few seconds before falling like a stone.

 

Yes - it just seems odd that, having already been through the process to make Titfield-themed products before, they appear to have made such a mess of things this time round.

[Fireline]

5 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I believe Rapido had already grabbed the rights before Hornby thought about doing any new products based on the film. Maybe they tried some sort of negotiation at that point but if Rapido had invested time and money by then they would not want to relinquish the rights. At that point Hornby would have had nowhere to go - but they tried to go there anyway! Like a cartoon character walking off a cliff and standing in mid-air for a few seconds before falling like a stone.

 

Knowing how far ahead plans are laid in manufacturing, it is more likely that Hornby had already planned for Lion to follow Rocket, including the Titfield Thunderbolt, but didn't anticipate anyone else doing a version, or beating them to the rights. How far Lion was down the road (a line on a piece of paper, a design on a computer, or tooling in process,) I suspect we will never know. It still amazes me to this day that people assume that no work whatsoever has gone into any items when they are announced....

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

If that’s the case then the current situation just seems bizarre. Presumably the previous agreement ‘ran out’, but surely it should just be a case of negotiating a renewal of the old agreement this time round?

That would seem to be the logical action but Rapido got there first, so there were no renewal rights to negotiate.

 

Having worked with Hornby before it seems odd that SC didn't approach Hornby again, unless they didn't consider what would be offered was up to the mark.

[Dunsignalling]

30 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

I believe Rapido had already grabbed the rights before Hornby thought about doing any new products based on the film. Maybe they tried some sort of negotiation at that point but if Rapido had invested time and money by then they would not want to relinquish the rights. At that point Hornby would have had nowhere to go - but they tried to go there anyway! Like a cartoon character walking off a cliff and standing in mid-air for a few seconds before falling like a stone.

 

Hornby, Inspired by Wile-E-Coyote.🤡

[melmerby]

25 minutes ago, Fireline said:

Knowing how far ahead plans are laid in manufacturing, it is more likely that Hornby had already planned for Lion to follow Rocket, including the Titfield Thunderbolt, but didn't anticipate anyone else doing a version, or beating them to the rights. How far Lion was down the road (a line on a piece of paper, a design on a computer, or tooling in process,) I suspect we will never know. It still amazes me to this day that people assume that no work whatsoever has gone into any items when they are announced....

Lion is only a few months away from hitting the shops, if the website (Link) is to be believed, so must have been past they design stage when they found out they had been beaten to the rights.

Edited July 6, 2022 by melmerby

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Lion is only a few months away from hitting the shops, if the website (Autumn 2022) is to be believed, so must have been past they design stage when they found out they had been beaten to the rights.

If they achieve that (and they must be pretty desperate to do so, under the circumstances), that may well explain why a load of other stuff has been shoved back to the latter part of 2023.....

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Having worked with Hornby before it seems odd that SC didn't approach Hornby again, unless they didn't consider what would be offered was up to the mark.

 

Unless Rapido approached Studiocanal first 🤷‍♂️

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Fireline said:

Knowing how far ahead plans are laid in manufacturing, it is more likely that Hornby had already planned for Lion to follow Rocket, including the Titfield Thunderbolt, but didn't anticipate anyone else doing a version, or beating them to the rights. How far Lion was down the road (a line on a piece of paper, a design on a computer, or tooling in process,) I suspect we will never know. It still amazes me to this day that people assume that no work whatsoever has gone into any items when they are announced....

One thing gives the game away - Rapido were pretty close to a 3-D print, and therefore a fairly advanced CAD, at the time they announced.  Hornby still haven't shown one of 'Lion' and surely if they were aiming to get out there they would by now have shown something ?

 

Remember what they did when Hattons announced their DJM 'King' project - Hornby were showing their development engineering drawings for their own re-tooled 'King' within about 48 hours (if not sooner).  On the other hand they did play it very quietly over their (formerly Oxford's) new Terrier but then the situation was rather different from what has taken place over Titfield

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Lion is only a few months away from hitting the shops, if the website (Link) is to be believed, so must have been past they design stage when they found out they had been beaten to the rights.

I'm a bit sceptical given that all Hornby are showing us there is the box.....

[Not Jeremy]

Rapido did not "grab the rights".

 

They had an idea, thought about it, discussed it, researched it and decided to do it. At some point in this process they approached Studiocanal, as any sensible and responsible company would do.

 

None of which was related to anything that Hornby was or was not doing at the time.

 

Simon

[Harlequin]

19 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

Rapido did not "grab the rights".

 

They had an idea, thought about it, discussed it, researched it and decided to do it. At some point in this process they approached Studiocanal, as any sensible and responsible company would do.

 

None of which was related to anything that Hornby was or was not doing at the time.

 

Simon

That is what I meant, of course. I just used a more pithy turn of phrase... 😁

 

[HExpressD]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

One thing gives the game away - Rapido were pretty close to a 3-D print, and therefore a fairly advanced CAD, at the time they announced.  Hornby still haven't shown one of 'Lion' and surely if they were aiming to get out there they would by now have shown something ?

 

I suppose we'll have to wait and see, if in 3 months time they show a CAD which looks like a sausage with wheels on it then I guess they had nout when the announcement was made. If in a few weeks they show a decoration sample or some such, then I guess this has been in the pipes for longer than I think some on here would like. 

[Jenny Emily]

The thought occurs that perhaps Hornby were well advanced with their Lion when they discovered they couldn’t get the rights. Perhaps their plan had been to announce the model pretty much at the point it was being released. The blacked out box art might suggest they are hiding the advancement of their model until it is ready for release. 

[Hroth]

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

Lion is only a few months away from hitting the shops, if the website (Link) is to be believed, so must have been past they design stage when they found out they had been beaten to the rights.

 

I'll be amazed if it arrives "Autumn 2022" as there are locos announced in January 2021 that apparently won't be with us until "Spring 2023".

 

As for the Titfield" rights issue, I don't know if it has been suggested here before, but the whole debacle might just be due to some plonkers in Marketing who thought that as Hornby previously had a licence to use the "Titfield Thunderbolt" IP (R3186) then they didn't have to go back to Studio Canal and things went downhill from there.

 

If they do have a "Lion" almost ready to roll, then at least that can go out the door to be judged against the Rapido model on its own merits.  I do hope that they provide alternative "Tiger" nameplates to encourage future purchases.  Why have one when you can have two!

 

Not that anyone will have a chance to get two due to the current marketing muddles at Hornby and their insistence on killing off the retailer chain in preference to their own direct sales operation, or limited production for that matter.  See what I mean about Marketing?  Bunch of ruddy loons!

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Hroth
Spelin...

[6990WitherslackHall]

To be honest, I was expecting it. Probably too many people accusing Hornby of trying too stealing Rapido's thunder.

[ellocoloco]

If I was after a model of Lion - which isn't very high on my list - I would have no interest in one based on an ancient film. The Hornby 1930s selection looks a much more useful selection to any modeller than the upcoming Rapido set. So many of us strive for realism in our models and are as likely to have a fictional film engine on our layouts as we are to have a Thomas model. 

It would also seem likely that Hornby will be first to market with Lion. May the best model win!

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

To be honest, I was expecting it. Probably too many people accusing Hornby of trying too stealing Rapido's thunder.

Actually, it's the other way round. Hornby cannot make The Titfield Thunderbolt because they don't have a licence to do so and Rapido do. 

 

That doesn't (and can't) apply to Lion, and Hornby seem to be moving heaven and earth, (along with the production slots for a number of other announced items) in order to get their version of that out ahead of the Rapido releases, thereby stealing (some of) their thunder. 

 

John

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Matt C]

14 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'm a bit sceptical given that all Hornby are showing us there is the box.....

 

Do you not understand ? Thats what you are buying Guv ! An empty box guv !  R@re !  Exact replica of an empty box, the non existent contents depicting the stock we don't have and cant supply. We will also be launching an empty box for all those other 2019/20/21/22 Items we launched but can't supply to our retailers. This range of empty boxes will build into a nice display on your shelves of what you wished you had 🤓