Hornby announce TT:120

[MarkSG]

41 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I think Sam is pretty fair with his reviews, in terms of the scope of his channel. He rubbishes some locos, but he's also willing to praise a good quality model. He also rates models by several different qualities individually, so for instance he'll say if a model is good value but low detail or poor running.

 

Where he really falls down as a reviewer, for me and I daresay a lot of people here, is that by his own admission, he's no railway expert. He's not likely to say anything that's outright wrong, but often his comments on detail are more "detail is there" than "detail is correct." But I think that a lot of modellers aren't that interested in historical accuracy as long as things look about right. I watch his videos more for entertainment than to influence my buying choices.

 

I think Sam's reviews are pretty much on point, at least for his target market. He's far more interested in how the model looks and behaves on his layout rather than detailed historical accuracy, and that probably reflects the position of most of his viewers. To be honest, I'm fairly comfortable with that position myself. I'd certainly prefer a model that runs well, looks good and is decent value for money over one that's pedantically correct in every aspect but runs like a dog and costs an arm and a leg.

 

41 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

 

I'd say it's not really in his interest to totally trash a model unjustifiably. Firstly because of the risk of being done for slander, and secondly because a YouTube reviewer who trashes everything is quickly going to see their invitations and previews dry up.

 

I don't think that's really an issue. Honesty is pretty much essential for a reviewer, you have to say (or write) what you really think if you don't want to end up with a reputation as just being a brown noser. And the manufacturers have to accept that; if they in turn end up with a reputation for only allowing positive reviews of their products then they're likely to find that reviews of all of them will dry up. And the reviews are essential publicity. That's why reviewers with a wide reach get sent models to review rather than needing to buy them. It's the same for the magazines as it is for the video channels.

If you want an example of Sam at his most scathing, this video is a delight to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvWoTaq-idM

 

[009 micro modeller]

48 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I experimented with T and the conclusion I came to was that the space is really the only advantage it has. Shunting is basically impossible, detail is invisible, running is temperamental and the limited range of mechanisms means that the majority of locomotive prototypes just can't be modelled unless you're a watchmaker. 

I have a little bit of T that I’ve used for my 1:12 scale Christmas layout. The original KiHa 40 railcar that I had was very temperamental and required a lot of track cleaning before use but the newer one that I replaced it with is much smoother, less fussy and more reliable, and capable of slower running. For my purposes it only needs to run continuously on a small oval but I’m impressed at its ability to do an entire exhibition single handed, something I don’t even do with my 009 layouts as I have more stock for those.
 

The lack of steam or small (non-bogie) locos in T gauge is annoying but they are working on that. Whether they will be as reliable remains to be seen though.

[009 micro modeller]

53 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

There you go, add a retractable canopy so you can expand a bit outside.. make a deal with a hardstanding owner in a few towns and make a schedule on a website.

 

Might double up as a salestand outside some model railway exhibition/preserved railway venues too.
 

Leave a few seats upstairs to have a natter, and for some storage, and perhaps a small layout too.

Downstairs. displays on every sq inch.. natural light from the windows to cabinets with models in..

credit card machine.. thats the drivers ticket machine surely. ;-)

What about a convoy of buses, as I’ve always thought a permanent but mobile model railway exhibition space in an old bus might be quite good as well.

['CHARD]

22 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

What about a convoy of buses, as I’ve always thought a permanent but mobile model railway exhibition space in an old bus might be quite good as well.

 

Where's Eddie Knorn of this parish, when you need him?  😉

[DonnyRailMan]

9 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

I think Sam's reviews are pretty much on point, at least for his target market. He's far more interested in how the model looks and behaves on his layout rather than detailed historical accuracy, and that probably reflects the position of most of his viewers. To be honest, I'm fairly comfortable with that position myself. I'd certainly prefer a model that runs well, looks good and is decent value for money over one that's pedantically correct in every aspect but runs like a dog and costs an arm and a leg.

 

 

I don't think that's really an issue. Honesty is pretty much essential for a reviewer, you have to say (or write) what you really think if you don't want to end up with a reputation as just being a brown noser. And the manufacturers have to accept that; if they in turn end up with a reputation for only allowing positive reviews of their products then they're likely to find that reviews of all of them will dry up. And the reviews are essential publicity. That's why reviewers with a wide reach get sent models to review rather than needing to buy them. It's the same for the magazines as it is for the video channels.

If you want an example of Sam at his most scathing, this video is a delight to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvWoTaq-idM

 

 

 Yeah Sams YouTube channel Sam's Trains is helpful to the every day Joe public out on the streets.  Like as been said he dose not proclaim to be an expert on model railways.

 

[Ravenser]

3 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

 

Where's Eddie Knorn of this parish, when you need him?  😉

 

I hate to burst everyone's bubble , but Bachmann will only supply bricks and mortar stores - not perambulating panel beaten ones on rubber tyres.....

[adb968008]

49 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

They have an easy answer to that, as the NRM found out years ago.  Simply put a 'Flying Scotsman' headboard for the engine and similar destination boards for the coaches in the set and they are selling  'the Flying Scotsman'.  It works, although there is some kiddology involved for the simple reason that many folk without railway knowledge don't know the difference between a train and an engine.  So if it says 'Flying Scotsman' that is what you have got - absolutely accurately.

 

Put some black tape over the letter “F” and it gets closer to the truth.

 

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

DCC Concepts is advertising a B2B gauge for 12mm gauge. But I haven't checked whether the back to back value is in fact to anyone's TT standard. (It looks as if it may be a figure derived from US narrow gauge)

 

The DCC Concepts TT B2B gauge is 10.3mm according to their website which puts it right into the centre of the MOROP NEM standard for TT.

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Yes, I am quite surprised they didn't actually model the Flying Scotsman in the TT:120 range, given that the aim is allegedly to attract first time modelers and families 

TT3004M

[rogerzilla]

1 hour ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-class-a1-4-6-2-4472-flying-scotsman-era-3-tt3004m

That's "as built" with the number on the tender.  Probably not how most people* remember it.

 

*alive today

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

I am quite surprised they didn't actually model the Flying Scotsman in the TT:120 range

 

The answer is, most likely, the licence fee that would be payable which would be putting around another £30 on the ticket price.

[britishcolumbian]

5 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

So basically you are saying that the shop owner should give you his time for free, plus cover the costs of rent, heating, security, bear the risks of unsold stock and everything else and not have a profit margin to pay for all that?

Not at all what I'm saying. I don't expect him to lose money just so I have somewhere to go chat. My point is that whether he stays in business or not, will not in a great way impact my hobby, as the things I get from his shop I can get elsewhere (even locally: RC shops, shops focussed on Gundam and other such Japanese plastic kits, etc.). This isn't Hungary in the 1970s when your only option for buying shoes was the state-run shoe store and you have a captive market who can't go elsewhere. The buyer has a choice; if the physical shop owner can't make it work in the new reality, that's sad, but it is what it is, part of the risks of a free market.

 

Flipping your statement around: are you saying I should give the shop owner more of my hard-earned money out of the kindness of my heart, just because he's got expenses to cover? I have expenses to cover, too, and I have to make my recreational/hobby fund go as far as possible... which means the shop owner really has to prove to me that paying him £20 more for an engine is in my favour. This may sound selfish or uncaring... and I suppose it is, at that, but: I can manage just fine without his shop, whereas he's reliant on me and others like me.

[MarkSG]

I've just noticed that Hornby have a product announcment out about Flying Scotsman in 00 today, tied in with the anniversary of the prototype. This may be why it isn't being specifically promoted in TT:120, because they don't want to dilute the message of this particular advertising push.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/catalogue/collections/flying-scotsman-centenary

 

[HonestTom]

6 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

I think my local model shop, Signals in Midsomer Norton has it's own model railway club and an N gauge layout in progress which is a fantastic idea for all concerned.  When I were a lad there was St John's Railway Circle* , but I'm not sure if they're still going, I think the last I heard of them was when I went to an exhibition in the church hall (where we used to meet) about 10 years ago.  

 

 

I know people who work or have worked for Games Workshop. That does very much have that "community" thing going on, with gaming tables etc, but my friends said it was a bit of a double-edged sword (which they also sell). On the one hand, it helps to get people into the hobby, which leads to sales. On the other, it means that a lot of your shop floor is being taken up for hours at a time by people who aren't going to spend more than a few quid, if anything.

[franciswilliamwebb]

11 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

That's "as built" with the number on the tender.  Probably not how most people* remember it.

 

*alive today

 

Thank god you were here, I very nearly bought the wrong Flying Scotsman in the wrong scale 🤣

[whart57]

3 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Not at all what I'm saying. I don't expect him to lose money just so I have somewhere to go chat. My point is that whether he stays in business or not, will not in a great way impact my hobby, as the things I get from his shop I can get elsewhere (even locally: RC shops, shops focussed on Gundam and other such Japanese plastic kits, etc.). This isn't Hungary in the 1970s when your only option for buying shoes was the state-run shoe store and you have a captive market who can't go elsewhere. The buyer has a choice; if the physical shop owner can't make it work in the new reality, that's sad, but it is what it is, part of the risks of a free market.

 

Flipping your statement around: are you saying I should give the shop owner more of my hard-earned money out of the kindness of my heart, just because he's got expenses to cover? I have expenses to cover, too, and I have to make my recreational/hobby fund go as far as possible... which means the shop owner really has to prove to me that paying him £20 more for an engine is in my favour. This may sound selfish or uncaring... and I suppose it is, at that, but: I can manage just fine without his shop, whereas he's reliant on me and others like me.

 

He's only reliant on you if he wants to run a model shop. He may well have decided to retire and he does have other options. My point was that a small model shop needs a larger profit margin per item to cover overheads. An outlet with a big mail-order section round the back shifts the volumes necessary to cover overheads on a smaller profit margin. You pays the money and gets the choice. If you want lower prices then that means ordering over the internet either from some eBay bandit with no overheads or a box shifter who covers the overheads through volume sales.

[Ravenser]

47 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think you've missed the point - several in fact.

1. I can order any Rapido, for example, model through my local model shop and if it's made he will get it.  The same applies with Accurscale although I've only ordered direct with them so far.  The sole exceptions are models a manufacturer does as 'exclusive' and only sells direct.

2. Interestingly Accurascale make it clear that if you order through a retailer the retailer will get what he ordered from them,

which takes me to the crux  of the matter-

3. I don't mind Hornby selling direct and that might suit some customers but I take great exception to them failing to meet retailers' orders while still having plenty of stock to sell direct or diverting stock ordered by retailers to their own direct sales.  It is just plain incompetent management (and occasionally sharp practice) when you can't rely on a manufacturer being able to sell to you the item you pre-ordered, and which your retailer ordered for you.  Thus-

4. If Hornby aren't prepared to meet orders which they have taken in good faith from retailers - and proclaimed in their various reports to shareholders that they have 'a good order book' -  it is hardly surprising that everybody from the retailer to the end customer complains about them.

 

So I don't mind them selling direct however they are in any event unable to supply the full range of what I buy from my 'local' retailers so it is hardly surprising that I support the retailer who does meet my needs.  One thing I hope for Hornby's sake is that in selling TT120 direct they don't fall into their seemingly usual trait of overselling and then being unable to deliver what they promised.  

 

Simple message to all businesses - 'under promise and over deliver'

 

The key issue for me lies in the bit I high-lighted.

 

In theory you could have gone via your model shop, but in practice you went direct, as I did with Revolution. I bought some IPAs from their webshop - it wasn't a pre-order. The reality is that very little of the money touches the shops

 

I saw Accurascale's stand at AllyPally  I think they were taking orders on the stand - I wasn't aware of anyone else at the show selling Accurascale. That's the situation on the ground

 

From the sound of it Accurascale and Rapido are offering the facility to pre-order through selected retailers , rather than buying a physical box sitting in his shop - though I think that IS what happens with the residue of the run. There will be fixed batch sizes - once the pre-orders get to break-even point the order will be placed in China , and whatever is left over and above the final total of pre-orders is disposed of at a premium price through the online shop. Or through a retailer , who can presumably buy stock at a price somewhere between cost and pre-order price, and sell on at the webshop premium price.

 

The vast majority of the "new boys" sales are direct pre-order, some are retailer pre-order (where the retailer doesn't pay until the goods ship and should have an immediate sale, so no stock cost for him) and only the scraps go to a shop as conventional sales. 

 

The list of selected retailers is in reality a minor bolt-on and a bit of PR /window-dressing

 

If so - this isn't a business model that will deliver enough revenue to support the ordinary shop. If the new boys do dismember Hornby's OO business as many clearly hope, then I don't see  much future for model shops as a retail channel for model railways 

 

I take your point about Hornby cutting back retail pre-orders to divert product to the website , though I think the position of the trade was that the website should only get what was left after all model shop orders had been fulfilled - ie direct sales should be restricted to remaindering the dregs but only at full RRP.

 

However that is not what is happening here. TT-120 has been declared as an "exclusive", that will online be available direct , online . The trade are furious about not being allowed to sell a product that they similtaneously say they have little interest in and nobody much wants

 

I don't see much hope for TT-120 if it is simply half a dozen boxes in a shop, tucked behind the Farish and OO9, with the proprietor telling anyone who will listen that it's just SK's ego trip and Hornby have finally lost the plot . That may have been the reality if  Hornby tried push it out through the general retail chain

 

If TT-120 works, it will become the Hornby equivalent of Marklin's Z gauge . Getting a 3% market share in the short term would be big success. That points to sales focussed on a small number of specialist traders

 

I'm imagining the reaction if Hornby had restricted TT-120 as a product to Tier 1 retailers, but required them to take a sizeable order across the range. I think the moral outrage from the trade would have been just as great. Shops would have boasted of their refusal to sign up

 

That leaves direct sales via the website, via Argos and toychains, and publicity. It could well be enough to get this to the modest levels of sales a niche scale needs to launch. Thereafter , widen out to selected retail partners like the new boys.

 

One further point - the genie is out of the bottle. Once British TT-120 has happened - even if the Hornby range fails in 18 months - it will stay on the table as a scale. Enough British RTR is now in the pipeline that some people will be able to keep modelling in the scale (think British HO Society) . Track and mechanisms will still be available from the Continent. I expect the 66 to remain in production, one way or another

[PeterStiles]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

Yes, I am quite surprised they didn't actually model the Flying Scotsman in the TT:120 range, given that the aim is allegedly to attract first time modelers and families 

Huh? Whats this then:

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

I saw Accurascale's stand at AllyPally  I think they were taking orders on the stand - I wasn't aware of anyone else at the show selling Accurascale. That's the situation on the ground

 

From the sound of it Accurascale and Rapido are offering the facility to pre-order through selected retailers , rather than buying a physical box sitting in his shop - though I think that IS what happens with the residue of the run. There will be fixed batch sizes - once the pre-orders get to break-even point the order will be placed in China , and whatever is left over and above the final total of pre-orders is disposed of at a premium price through the online shop. Or through a retailer , who can presumably buy stock at a price somewhere between cost and pre-order price, and sell on at the webshop premium price.

 

There's a lot of supposition in there - mostly incorrect.

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Huh? Whats this then:

 

At that point sets were being discussed.

[HonestTom]

5 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

One further point - the genie is out of the bottle. Once British TT-120 has happened - even if the Hornby range fails in 18 months - it will stay on the table as a scale. Enough British RTR is now in the pipeline that some people will be able to keep modelling in the scale (think British HO Society) . Track and mechanisms will still be available from the Continent. I expect the 66 to remain in production, one way or another

I think niche scales are far better off these days than they used to be. Starting a "club" of sorts is as easy as creating a Facebook group, or even a thread on here. Not to mention the possibilities of laser cutting and 3D printing to make actual new products available. 

[rob D2]

As Mr K announced a 37/47 and the 50 I’ve  had a good look - the 50 is 17cm long , my OO 37 is 23….as it stands a proper length train of class 50 and mk2s will be 1.5m still, so that doesn’t help me in the box room unfortuntely - price wise it was about what I expected ( although my brain still thinks £150 for an OO is right ).

 

I would agree trying to model the whole spectrum of eras might be a bit wild . I see this scale as “ Avanti or Ashburton “. In other words , new younger , entrants who might have seen….an avanti. Or maybe at the other end of age , retirees , or the few with the resources to change scale and tack and “ have a dabble “.

 

[Dunsignalling]

25 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I think niche scales are far better off these days than they used to be. Starting a "club" of sorts is as easy as creating a Facebook group, or even a thread on here. Not to mention the possibilities of laser cutting and 3D printing to make actual new products available. 

There's a mention in the new Railway Modeller for a GWR diesel railcar body.

 

Anybody with existing 3D printing capability can presumably cater for any scale (within reason) purely via their keyboards.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

I'd say it's not really in his interest to totally trash a model unjustifiably. Firstly because of the risk of being done for slander, and secondly because a YouTube reviewer who trashes everything is quickly going to see their invitations and previews dry up.

 

It's very unlikely a YouTube review would result in a slander case. It would be an expensive risk for the person trying to sue as it's unlikely they would see much money back. Even if they won, you'd need to prove that a review had significantly damaged the "injured" party - something that would be almost impossible. Then hope to get a decent settlement and costs, all of which would be moot if the person being sued didn't have the money to pay.

 

As for invites and previews - in the model railway world, you'll very rarely find anyone invited to those who isn't from a mag. For a start, they are much rarer than you imagine, and those that do take place generally involve and embargo on the information. Mags will respect this as they want to be invited back. YouTuber's would gain a lot of traffic from blowing the embargo (how many people would race to the channel if Hornby's new range announcements were released a month ahead of everyone else?)  at the cost of not being invited back the next year. But by that point they have the money in the bank...

 

As someone who does a lot online yourself, you must be aware of clickbait. Bad news sells, so if you want the traffic, provide it. More people will tune in to see a product being trashed than they will for a fair, balanced, and boring review. That's just human nature. This isn't to say that all online reviews are bad, but it's worth being aware of any influences on them.

[boxbrownie]

21 hours ago, TomE said:

 

As for N, this is a sample for the forthcoming N Gauge Class 59 from Revolution Trains. Current RTR N isn’t up to the same levels of fidelity as OO? Maybe not quite yet, but it’s snapping at its heals. 
 

 

 

Tom. 

Agree, it’s taken a while for other manufacturers to catch up but I was buying Kato N Gauge stuff 15 years ago at least which is still as good as any OO gauge diesel for fine detail.

 

And the running qualities of the Kato locos still amaze me.