Hornby announce TT:120

[BRTrainz]

11 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

An 08 set might be called "Local Goods".

And a revived "Freightliner" set with a Class 66* and a miscellaneous selection of wagons might be a possibility, ideal for Xmas 2023?

 

* Cheapest Big Diesel they've announced so far...

TTA wagons should also be released by then if they wanted to stick to something era approriate for a 66.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Erm. That is Hornby's publicity on Hornby's Facebook page.

 

Clue is in the top right hand corner.

 

Might also be worth considering who the main sponsor is....

 

https://gbmrs.com/sponsors

So did Hornby ask permission? Or was permission covered in the show contract to use the images? 

 

Oddly my comment in the Hornby FB thread got deleted, that mentioned Hornby and copyright 😅

[MarkSG]

55 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

So did Hornby ask permission? Or was permission covered in the show contract to use the images? 😅

 

Given that the photographer has stated in the FB thread that he supplied the photo to GBMRS to use as publicity, and hasn't complained about Hornby using it, the most plausible assumption is that the permission granted to GBMRS to use the photo for publicity purposes also extends to the show's sponsors.

 

In fact, it's quite likely that GBMRS have asked their sponsors to use a standard set of publicity photos in order to ensure that the branding remains consistent. Otherwise, I doubt that Hornby would have used a photo which so prominently features a model made by a competitor.

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Given that the photographer has stated in the FB thread that he supplied the photo to GBMRS to use as publicity, and hasn't complained about Hornby using it, the most plausible assumption is that the permission granted to GBMRS to use the photo for publicity purposes also extends to the show's sponsors.

 

In fact, it's quite likely that GBMRS have asked their sponsors to use a standard set of publicity photos in order to ensure that the branding remains consistent. Otherwise, I doubt that Hornby would have used a photo which so prominently features a model made by a competitor.

Its good advertising for Comet also.

[Mike Harvey]

The companion road vehicles from Oxford Diecast are now being delivered.  I made a comparison of size of the Bedford OB Duple coach across 3 scales using an Oxford model for 1/148 scale and a Corgi Original Omnibus model for 1/76. The TT:120 one is not all that much larger than the N scale one.

 

 

[Arun Sharma]

On 10/10/2022 at 13:07, tommyliam021 said:

Interesting that the 66, which is the least detailed of the TT releases that they have in 00, is the cheapest. I wonder if they’ve simply shrunk the ex Lima model.

No reason why they shouldn't have [assuming the source model was accurate in its own right].

As a designer of 7mm scale kits via CAD and occasional 3D scanning of full-size vehicles, I am regularly surprised by the unwillingness of the likes of Hornby, Bachman, Dapol and even Heljan to use the 3D CAD files that their 4mm scale models have been based upon and rescale them to 7mm [or even 'S' scale for that matter]. Whilst rescaling isn't quite as straightforward as using a simple 3D CAD software 'scale' command, it isn't difficult or especially time consuming.

Furthermore, for the limited runs that might obtain in these larger scales, resin casting rather than injection moulding is a far more economical process and has the astonishing advantage that the entire process can be done in the UK rather than several thousand miles away. 

A little known secret is that injection moulding tools no longer need to be metal and produced by expensive spark erosion processes. There are UK companies that will 3D print such tools either in plastic or by metal sintering. Such tools are more than sufficient for RTR and kit runs that are orders of magnitude less than those required for those models/kits imported from China.

 

I would be surprised [indeed, appalled] if the major UK 4mm 'manufacturers' hadn't considered these options but if they have, they are keeping very quiet about why they aren't manufacturing models on this basis.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Arun Sharma
punctuation

[Steamport Southport]

32 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

The companion road vehicles from Oxford Diecast are now being delivered.  I made a comparison of size of the Bedford OB Duple coach across 3 scales using an Oxford model for 1/148 scale and a Corgi Original Omnibus model for 1/76. The TT:120 one is not all that much larger than the N scale one.

 

 

 

Now we just need TT3 and HO versions to fill the gaps.  😃

 

2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4

 

Might pick a couple of those Oxford models up regardless.

 

 

Jason

[Les1952]

On 25/10/2022 at 14:13, Hroth said:

 

 

 

I'd have been more impressed if Hornby had produced a model of "Caerphilly Castle" in Phase 1...

 

 

I wouldn't, though as homage to Triang TT they COULD have done Windsor Castle, the loco that started me off railway modelling in 1963...

 

Les

[Johan DC]

39 minutes ago, Arun Sharma said:

 

 

I would be surprised [indeed, appalled] if the major UK 4mm 'manufacturers' hadn't considered these options but if they have, they are keeping very quiet about why they aren't manufacturing models on this basis.

Hornby will soon sell, by Humbrol, their 'own' 3D-printers. So, they should at least have a basic knowledge?

[M4tt80]

After much pondering I ventured to my local model shop today to take a look at the Peco track. 
Apparently I had just missed the local Hornby rep who I understand had just left with a flea in his ear about Hornby stomping on the retailers. 
Aside from that we discussed that Heljan had pulled out and today so has Gaugemaster which means the only player left making RTR at this time is Hornby. Aside from the 2 sets, nothing else has been physically produced yet and according to the rep it’s not set in stone? 
 

I left feeling slightly apprehensive and considered delaying making a decision until a) I’ve seen the products in the flesh at a show and b) wait to see what surprises Bachmann may unveil in their next quarterly announcement. Given their track record I wouldn’t be surprised if they unveiled something like they did with those 009 fairlies. 
 

If another manufacturer producing RTR doesn’t jump on board I’m going to hold fire for now. 

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Arun Sharma said:

Furthermore, for the limited runs that might obtain in these larger scales, resin casting rather than injection moulding is a far more economical process and has the astonishing advantage that the entire process can be done in the UK rather than several thousand miles away. 

 

The Steampunk Range is resin cast, as are the buildings so it's not like Hornby haven't looked in that direction. The models still need to be finished and painted though, which may explain why they haven't gone this route for Nu-TT.

[rodshaw]

I was at a show in August where Bachmann had a stand. The rep there thought there would be no chance of Bachmann doing anything with TT because they had too much invested in N. But you never know.

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, rodshaw said:

I was at a show in August where Bachmann had a stand. The rep there thought there would be no chance of Bachmann doing anything with TT because they had too much invested in N. But you never know.

TT:120 is a lifeboat that Hornby is building to keep itself afloat.

 

If any of its rivals get to needing one, chances are they'll come up with an entirely different idea.

 

John 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, rodshaw said:

I was at a show in August where Bachmann had a stand. The rep there thought there would be no chance of Bachmann doing anything with TT because they had too much invested in N. But you never know.

Seems fair enough, given that at this point in time we don't know if there's enough demand out there for one manufacturer to operate profitably, nevermind multiple manufacturers.

[BRTrainz]

1 hour ago, M4tt80 said:

After much pondering I ventured to my local model shop today to take a look at the Peco track. 
Apparently I had just missed the local Hornby rep who I understand had just left with a flea in his ear about Hornby stomping on the retailers. 
Aside from that we discussed that Heljan had pulled out and today so has Gaugemaster which means the only player left making RTR at this time is Hornby. Aside from the 2 sets, nothing else has been physically produced yet and according to the rep it’s not set in stone? 
 

I left feeling slightly apprehensive and considered delaying making a decision until a) I’ve seen the products in the flesh at a show and b) wait to see what surprises Bachmann may unveil in their next quarterly announcement. Given their track record I wouldn’t be surprised if they unveiled something like they did with those 009 fairlies. 
 

If another manufacturer producing RTR doesn’t jump on board I’m going to hold fire for now. 

Peco announced (presumably RTR) wagons some time ago (no specifics besides 3d renders of a 7-plank) so there is still another manufacturer (albeit not for locos).

I'm a bit confused about what the rep told you, as Hornby already has shown fully decorated samples of some of the wagons so those are presumably in production/about to be.

Hornby has also shown undecorated samples of the class 08 and other wagons so those would seem unlikely to be canceled.

[ixionmodels]

13 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

No reason why they shouldn't have [assuming the source model was accurate in its own right].

As a designer of 7mm scale kits via CAD and occasional 3D scanning of full-size vehicles, I am regularly surprised by the unwillingness of the likes of Hornby, Bachman, Dapol and even Heljan to use the 3D CAD files that their 4mm scale models have been based upon and rescale them to 7mm [or even 'S' scale for that matter]. Whilst rescaling isn't quite as straightforward as using a simple 3D CAD software 'scale' command, it isn't difficult or especially time consuming.

As a manufacturer of RTR locomotives in N, On30, O and HO scales  (I co-own Ixion Model Railways) can I scotch this theory once and for all. Arun says: "Whilst rescaling isn't quite as straightforward as using a simple 3D CAD software 'scale' command, it isn't difficult or especially time consuming."

Unfortunately, yes it is.

 

I'm guessing the 7mm kits Arun has designed are not for locomotives that he also sells as RTR items. It is not possible to simply "scale down" (or scale up) the CAD of an existing locomotive. [I'm talking mostly about 'scaling down' here in this post, as this is a TT:120 thread and the most common expectation seems to involve the downsizing of 4mm scale models; but my answer is equally relevant to 'upscaling' to O or S as well.]

Everything in the locomotive has been drawn for a particular scale and to match the existing standards for the scale, and for existing components like motors, gearboxes, printed circuit boards, LEDs, wire, wheels standards and gauge, etc. The scale and gauge determines the thickness of the wheels front to back, size of flange, axle diameter, etc. This in turn affects clearances for cylinders and rods on steam locos, bogie sides and cab steps and brake shoe alignment on diesels. Couplers are different in every different scale, and are fixed in different places with different methods. Shrinking a 4mm loco CAD (with its incorrect gauge) to TT with a correct gauge would make some moulded components too thin for safe handling; some boiler and backhead fittings too fine; the chassis would need a complete redesign, clearances for the chassis to fit inside the body would need redesigning, as would every part that has to fit into or over or alongside another. Electrical pickup would need a redesign for available components. Clearances that provide a 'snug fit' for mating 4mm components like boiler-into-smokebox would result in them jamming in TT, or being unacceptably loose and ill-fitting in 7mm. Some rivets may even need redrawing to make them big enough to be seen in TT (this is a real thing, as any experienced model railway CAD designer can confirm) or made finer and more 'scale' in 7mm. With every part needing to be redrawn, it's faster and cheaper to draw the loco in the new scale from scratch. How do I know? We have in the past looked at rescaling both our 7mm Hudswell Clarke to OO and N, and our On30 'Coffee Pot' steam rail motor to HOn30 and G scales.

 

Don't forget that a RTR manufacturer also has to provide a 'repair or replace' warranty for their model. This is an expensive exercise where that model is a motorised locomotive with hundreds of parts, and where the manufacturer has absolutely no control over how carefully the purchaser handles the model, or where it runs (eg, on carpet). If Arun designs and sells 7mm kits under his own brand then he may have some experience with returns & customer complaints; if he supplies his designs assembled, painted and RTR in appropriate protective packaging then he'll know he can multiply the consumer complaints by 10 for items of rolling stock; and multiply them by 100 for any RTR locomotive. So designing RTR models has to be a compromise between fineness of detail and robust construction to survive variable handling by customers (and very variable handling in their packaging by post and courier services).

 

Where money is saved is in the preparatory areas: all the research has already been done, and the prototype dimensions have been obtained and 2D drawings done using those. The existing CADS can be used as reference for where components go, and how they relate to the parts around them.

 

Wagons are a simpler proposition, but issues of side thickness, proportions of brake components, coupler fixings etc still apply. Coaches are in the middle, and still present challenges that may make "down- or up-scaling" uneconomic: fitting details, removable roof vs removable body, chassis and lighting design, bogie and coupler placement and fixing, part thickness, window 'glass' thickness and fixing method, separate roof, separate or moulded-on underfloor and end detail parts...

 

I hope this helps to clarify the challenges manufacturers face when considering producing an existing model in a different scale, and goes some way to dispelling the commonly held modeller belief that it "isn't difficult or especially time consuming" to rescale an existing  RTR model.

Cheers,

Lindsay O'Reilly

Director,

Ixion Model Railways Australia Pty Ltd.

Edited October 27, 2022 by ixionmodels

[PeterStiles]

12 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

simply shrunk the ex Lima mode

I'm not sure the Lima model has CAD available - you can't "shrink" if you've only got The Tooling. You can't just stick it in the washing machine on "hot" and expect what comes out the other end to be wearable by your ten year-old brother can you..

 

And you can't just "shink" CAD, you have to put the effort in to deal with the properties of the materials you'll use for manufacture and the different relative sizes of mechanisms - and the need for greater relief in smaller models(*)- otherwise there would be no reason for GFs range of models to match Bachmann's OO offerings model-for-model.

 

More likely, given the venerability of the Lima 66 I'd suspect Hornby would pass the new 66 CAD from the TT department to the OO department saying "there you go, make a good one now"

 

 

(*) How many people make buldings with embossed plastic or card for *brick* facing - when in th 12" to the foot world the mortar is supposed to be flat with the brick face - so that brick painted Card is the most *realistic* approach. But no, people like embossed because the added non-prototypical depth looks far better on a scale model. Same thing with details on a loco...

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

I'm not sure the Lima model has CAD available - you can't "shrink" if you've only got The Tooling. You can't just stick it in the washing machine on "hot" and expect what comes out the other end to be wearable by your ten year-old brother can you..

 

And you can't just "shink" CAD, you have to put the effort in to deal with the properties of the materials you'll use for manufacture and the different relative sizes of mechanisms - and the need for greater relief in smaller models(*)- otherwise there would be no reason for GFs range of models to match Bachmann's OO offerings model-for-model.

 

More likely, given the venerability of the Lima 66 I'd suspect Hornby would pass the new 66 CAD from the TT department to the OO department saying "there you go, make a good one now"

 

 

(*) How many people make buldings with embossed plastic or card for *brick* facing - when in th 12" to the foot world the mortar is supposed to be flat with the brick face - so that brick painted Card is the most *realistic* approach. But no, people like embossed because the added non-prototypical depth looks far better on a scale model. Same thing with details on a loco...

 

 

 

I'd think the ex-Lima stuff predates the adoption of CAD in the model railway field by at least a decade!

 

Where models are duplicated in more than one scale, it's more likely that separate sets of CADs were "worked up" in parallel from a common starting point (usually a 3D scan of the outer surfaces of the prototype), rather than one being extrapolated from the other.

 

The problem with printed vs embossed detail on buildings is that light falling on them behaves very differently. and shows up the shortcomings of both, with [Generalisation Warning] moulded detail revealed as over-scale and printed card looking like exactly what it is.  

 

John

 

 

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, ixionmodels said:

 

Wagons are a simpler proposition, but issues of side thickness, proportions of brake components, coupler fixings etc still apply. Coaches are in the middle, and still present challenges that may make "down- or up-scaling" uneconomic: fitting details, removable roof vs removable body, chassis and lighting design, bogie and coupler placement and fixing, part thickness, window 'glass' thickness and fixing method, separate roof, separate or moulded-on underfloor and end detail parts...

Indeed, even something relatively simple as a wagon can be a pain, ask my mate where I used to work (one of the biggest motor manufacturers R&E Centre)……he worked in Rapid Prototyping and we had access to (this was fifteen* years ago at least!) the latest 3D scanning and resin, sintered and PU printing machines costing hundreds of thousands, in fact I think the laser resin printer was over a million due to its size, anyway I was modelling 7mm at the time and wanted an FNA nuclear flask wagon, after chatting to Pete Waterman a few times about him making one in JLTRT, (don’t think it ever made it to production) I decided to buy the recently released 4mm Bachmann FNA, so we scanned and printed a few and they turned out excellent, after realising that some of the crucial measurements and scales would be different from 4mm….everything from the bogies down would need tweaking, my mate was very understanding but even with all the latest computer tech it took him a whole weekend of overtime 😉 to get them correct. I still have them, but unfortunately never got around to finishing them completely due to changing scale upon retirement.

 

But it is far more than just clicking the “scale” button, my mate told me that in no uncertain terms. 
 

*edit….actually it must have been twenty or so, thinking about it 😱

Edited October 27, 2022 by boxbrownie

[Howard Smith]

14 hours ago, M4tt80 said:

Aside from the 2 sets, nothing else has been physically produced yet and according to the rep it’s not set in stone? 
 

I left feeling slightly apprehensive and considered delaying making a decision until a) I’ve seen the products in the flesh at a show and b) wait to see what surprises Bachmann may unveil in their next quarterly announcement. Given their track record I wouldn’t be surprised if they unveiled something like they did with those 009 fairlies. 
 

If another manufacturer producing RTR doesn’t jump on board I’m going to hold fire for now. 

 

So that didn't come directly from the rep's mouth? As witnessed on the preview day (and photographed here on our website: https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-tt-model-prototypes-examined/ ) the range of TT track has been manufactured, structures are there and more items are en-route. We expect more to be announced, in due course, too.

 

It's rare for a manufacturer to reveal so many items by way of a new range in one go. Expecting it all to be in stock for launch is unrealistic. As with all manufacturers, items trickle through depending on production and shipping schedules. Hornby could have revealed just two train sets and added to these with further announcements over coming years. Instead, it has pledged to invest in new tooling as seen above, which makes the premise of building of a TT layout more enticing.

 

If you'd like to see the range, I can recommend visiting the Great British Model Railway Show at Gaydon this weekend to see for yourself how far Hornby is with producing its range.

[philsandy]

Re. Hornby TT120 Pre ordering.

 

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but pre ordering is something I've never done, how does it work. Do you pay for the items when you pre order, or pay when they are actually available and are about to be posted out to you?

[JohnR]

3 minutes ago, philsandy said:

Re. Hornby TT120 Pre ordering.

 

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but pre ordering is something I've never done, how does it work. Do you pay for the items when you pre order, or pay when they are actually available and are about to be posted out to you?

 

Card will be charged when item ships (at least where Hornby is concerned). 

[PeterStiles]

1 minute ago, philsandy said:

Re. Hornby TT120 Pre ordering.

 

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but pre ordering is something I've never done, how does it work. Do you pay for the items when you pre order, or pay when they are actually available and are about to be posted out to you?

 

When ordering from Hornby:

(i) you enter payment details at time of order

(ii) payment isn't taken until dispatch

(iii) Hornby have, to date, always honoured the price at time of ordering - so if it goes up between making your pre order and the goods getting dispatch you pay the original price.

 

What Hornby are NOT good at doing is combining postage for multiple pre-order items that are dispatched at the same time. So if you order more than one thing, keep an eye on what postage you eventually get charged and be ready to phone them up and ask for some of it back...

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

TT:120 is a lifeboat that Hornby is building to keep itself afloat.

 

If any of its rivals get to needing one, chances are they'll come up with an entirely different idea.

 

John 

Its rivals already have come up with their 'different ideas' by going in for narrow gauge (Bachmann and Peco) or 0 Gauge (various) or even adding a totally new brand and range (Bachmann with EFE).  Hornby was the one that was being left behind and not innovating to create its own niche area having done so originally with its industrials but then finding many others jumping on that bandwagon.

 

Its TT development has been some time coming, and has arrived later than I'd originally expected it to be announced, but it's now here/arriving shortly with customers.   In many ways a logical step for Hornby especially as it's a move to a very open goal with any potential competition only likely to emerge slowly in view of the investment involved.  Thus Hornby should be able to get itself well established and build the new market to its advantage provided its selling and, particularly,  product support matches the hype and publicity.

 

Hardly a lifeboat for a company which dominates the British outline model railway market in 00 but it is, I think, that essential new niche that Hornby need to create a new market where competition is likely to be limited and which will in time become essential to their bottom line as their 00 market is increasingly squeezed by the competition.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Howard Smith said:

It's rare for a manufacturer to reveal so many items by way of a new range in one go. Expecting it all to be in stock for launch is unrealistic. As with all manufacturers, items trickle through depending on production and shipping schedules. Hornby could have revealed just two train sets and added to these with further announcements over coming years. Instead, it has pledged to invest in new tooling as seen above, which makes the premise of building of a TT layout more enticing.

 

If you'd like to see the range, I can recommend visiting the Great British Model Railway Show at Gaydon this weekend to see for yourself how far Hornby is with producing its range.

 

Snipped to highlight one part.

 

The only time I remember a whole range just appearing was Mainline*.

 

Here is the pricelist for Mainline's launch in 1976.

 

http://www.mainlinerailways.org.uk/PriceList.htm

 

Notice the similarities?

 

Three locomotives, two coaches and a handful of wagons in various liveries. Full range of track and accessories. With all those packaged up into half a dozen train sets.

 

Worked for Mainline.

 

 

*Lima drip fed a few Continental models in British liveries and Airfix was already established.

 

 

Jason