Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[57xx]

I've gone with the unbranded Derails version too.

[The Johnster]

On 28/11/2022 at 18:14, Corbs said:

 

The suffix/prefix Ws did change over time from what I have read and the photo research, depending on when they were repainted.

This is why this set has W prefix only:

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/dia-e140-b-set-br-crimson-2/

and this set has W prefix and suffix:

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/dia-e140-b-set-br-crimson/

The suffix W (M,E,S…) was introduced so that duplication of numbers with BR standard coaching in stock could be avoided.  It indicated the region responsible for the coach’s maintenance.

Edited November 29, 2022 by The Johnster

[checkrail]

Prompted by a post of Miss P's @Miss PrismI've been doing a bit of musing and Russell-riffling over on ANTB, courtesy of Robin @gwrrobconcerning B set lining.  What I've gathered from a careful perusal of the photographs is as follows.

 

The E140 B sets were built in batches over 1930 and 1931.  Double lining for coaches was introduced sometime in 1930. The earliest E140 batch was built in 1930 under Lot 1407.  Although there are no official pics of any of the batches in Russell there is such a pic of an E141 non-corridor comp built as part of Lot 1405 - it has double lining.  Other official pics of new coaches through 1930, 1931, 1932 and into 1933 also show double lining.  This includes the E145 B sets of 1933.  At some point in 1933 all new coaching stock reverts to single lining with GWR lettering above the twin shields, including the E147 B sets of 1933.  This continues into 1934, until the advent of the shirtbutton totem.  It seems highly unlikely that any E140 set would have required a repaint before then, so perhaps we should conclude that the early livery version of Rapido's B set should sport double lining (as did the most recent version of Hornby's E140.

 

But Rapido may have access to sources I don't know.

[Hal Nail]

On 28/11/2022 at 02:12, Halvarras said:

....I popped round to the Replica Railways shop (10 minutes' drive away back then) where I knew there was a box full of Collett bogie frames looking for a home and did this:

Diagram E140 to E145. The bogie pivots had to be moved inwards a bit, but photos show these 9' bogies were very close to the ends of the vehicle.

I think, unfortunately, those are pressed steel bogies whereas the E145 had a type that were just longer versions of the 7 foot ones (I think known as "9' plate" but can't remember offhand)

Edited November 29, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Skinnylinny]

3 hours ago, 88D said:

I notice that the photo of the underframe shows four sets of truss rods. For this size of GWR coach, should this not be two? I’ll get my coat.

You had me worried there! 🤣

The underframe drawings for the 59' 10 1/2" underframe as used under the E140s (lot 1407) shows four sets of truss rods. Being aware of the perils of relying on just drawings, though, we have managed to find a couple of photos of E140s where the sun is low enough that it picks out the outer and part of one of the inner sets of truss rods. 

[88D]

3 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

You had me worried there! 🤣

The underframe drawings for the 59' 10 1/2" underframe as used under the E140s (lot 1407) shows four sets of truss rods. Being aware of the perils of relying on just drawings, though, we have managed to find a couple of photos of E140s where the sun is low enough that it picks out the outer and part of one of the inner sets of truss rods. 

I’m glad you can prove it! It means , though, that I have to modify most of my coaches now! My rule has been 64’ and upwards - 4 trusses, anything below - 2 trusses ( except restaurant, slips and pre-angleiron). Live and learn.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The suffix W (M,E,S…) was introduced so that duplication of numbers with BR standard coaching in stock could be avoided.  It indicated the region responsible for the coach’s maintenance.

Isn't it a lot more involved than that?

Such as, SCxxxxM or SCxxxxE etc. showing the vehicles were allocated to the Scottish region but of LMS or LNER origin. e.g maybe Caledonian or NBR

Also on the GWR the Auto trailers were numbered in a seperate series so there was a W115 and a W115W at the same time.

W115 was a A9 Autotrailer and W115W was an ex BPGV vehicle, however W114W was another A9 Autotrailer.

 

Nothing is simple.

 

Edit

Add the Diesel Railcars, another seperate batch W1(W) - W38(W)

Edited November 29, 2022 by melmerby

[melmerby]

Another oddity are the two groups of GWR E156 Composites built at Swindon in 1953 for the LMR

They are numbered continuously M16797W - M16876W.

There was at the same time several carriages on the LMR in the same number group e.g. M16858M which was an ex CLC vehicle.

So from 1953 'til 1958 there was both a M16858W and M16858M.

Confusing ain't it?

Edited November 29, 2022 by melmerby

[Corbs]

5 hours ago, Pendennis said:

Over the weekend I contacted Rapido regarding the liveries proposed for these coaches, I wasn’t sure which model to order for my post-war GWR layout; I received this reply today:-

 

As far as our research has shown the livery timeline for GWR coaches is as follows:-

 

1. 20's/early 30's - Great (CREST) Western

2. Late 30's/early 40s - Shirtbutton

3. Late 40s Crest with 'G.W.R.' above in small lettering.

 

I’m still not really sure whether they are going to produce the early-1930s livery or the late 1940s livery so my order has gone to Derails for their exclusive edition, I think I’ll be pretty safe with that one.

 

Martin

 

4 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Surely that should read

 as built - GWR over crest in shaded gold, seem to be options with single or double lining 

late 30s - shirt button (single line)

Early 40s. Most still in shirt button, some in lined wartime brown (eg the pair I’ve previously mentioned)

late 40s - GWR over crest in yellow, single lining.  Also great crest western (in yellow) with double lining, but this is rare.

 

 

for me I will go with the Derails version and remove the shirt button and add the GWR over crest.  I think I have a set of transfers for Kingsbridge Branch no1 In the transfers  box.  A wartime brown set will eventually follow, as there’s no way you can run a Rapido set with an Airfix set.  Just can’t justify £300 of coaches in one hit. (Particularly when half of them would be going straight in paint stripper.)

 

Hi,

 

Just want to correct this - our internal reference had not been updated (think we are all still recovering from Warley!). The relevant staff member claims they only own 1 J H Russell book, they shall be made to polish copper caps until they have learned better.

 

@The Fatadder is correct.

As I understand it, the livery trends should be:

Inter war (1927–1934): 'Twin Cities' crest with G W R above, white roof (as per 946002)
Roundel (1934-1942): Shirtbutton GWR (as per 946001)
Wartime Brown (1942–1947) - mainly non-corridor stock repaints: 'Twin Cities' crest with G W R, grey roof*
Post war (1944-1947 ish) : GREAT (twin cities crest) WESTERN or G.W.R. over crest with yellow lining, grey roof**

 

*I have omitted 'new' stock and corridor stock as it got too complex for this post.
**Regarding the post-war livery of GREAT (crest) WESTERN, if anyone knows of one and can point me in the right direction of an E140 in this scheme I would be grateful. I have seen a photo of an E145 with G.W.R. over crest and grey roof, but not the other livery.

 

All the best

Corbs

 

[Keegs]

I wonder if Rapido is going to tool these so an E141 variant would be possible…

[Pteremy]

11 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

The underframe drawings for the 59' 10 1/2" underframe as used under the E140s (lot 1407) shows four sets of truss rods. Being aware of the perils of relying on just drawings, though, we have managed to find a couple of photos of E140s where the sun is low enough that it picks out the outer and part of one of the inner sets of truss rods. 

 

Does the photographic evidence also embrace the 2 lots after 1407 (i.e. 1445 and 1455)? 

[The Fatadder]

10 hours ago, Corbs said:

**Regarding the post-war livery of GREAT (crest) WESTERN, if anyone knows of one and can point me in the right direction of an E140 in this scheme I would be grateful. I have seen a photo of an E145 with G.W.R. over crest and grey roof, but not the other livery.

 

All the best

Corbs

 

I am convinced that I have seen a photo somewhere, but cant for the life of me remember where.  If I find it I will pass it on. (can also pass on a copy of the lined wartime brown if thats any use for the future).

[David Stannard]

14 hours ago, 57xx said:

I've gone with the unbranded Derails version too.

 

Thanks for the heads up, likewise I have ordered the non branded versions as well as I was not looking forward to stripping some of the paintwork.

Edited November 30, 2022 by David Stannard

[checkrail]

10 hours ago, Corbs said:

*Regarding the post-war livery of GREAT (crest) WESTERN, if anyone knows of one and can point me in the right direction of an E140 in this scheme I would be grateful. I have seen a photo of an E145 with G.W.R. over crest and grey roof, but not the other livery.

Russell Part 2 (1903-1948) p192, Fig 328. annotation buried inside first para. on p193 about TPO vans. (Typical of the chaotic arrangement of the earlier Russell volumes!)

Edited November 30, 2022 by checkrail
typo - page no. error

[Corbs]

57 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I am convinced that I have seen a photo somewhere, but cant for the life of me remember where.  If I find it I will pass it on. (can also pass on a copy of the lined wartime brown if thats any use for the future).

Have dropped you a message.
 

35 minutes ago, checkrail said:

Russell Part 2 (1903-1948) p192, Fig 328. annotation buried inside first para. on p193 about TPO vans. (Typical of the chaotic arrangement of the earlier Russell volumes!)

 

Thank you! Will look it up.

[Cwmtwrch]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Isn't it a lot more involved than that?

Such as, SCxxxxM or SCxxxxE etc. showing the vehicles were allocated to the Scottish region but of LMS or LNER origin. e.g maybe Caledonian or NBR

Also on the GWR the Auto trailers were numbered in a seperate series so there was a W115 and a W115W at the same time.

W115 was a A9 Autotrailer and W115W was an ex BPGV vehicle, however W114W was another A9 Autotrailer.

 

Nothing is simple.

ScxxxxM would indicate an ex- LMSR vehicle in ScR stock, but allocated to the LMR for maintenance, and similarly SCxxxxE was ScR stock allocated to the ER/NER for maintenance. Pre-group and group vehicles would be treated the same in this respect. The intent was to send coaches needing repairs or maintenance to a works which should have the necessary spares; all main works would have spares for BR Mk1s.

As you state WR auto-trailers were in a separate series; incidentally, GW horse boxes, Siphons, carriage trucks and BGs all had their own series, so the potential for number duplications was actually considerably wider. In all cases the early renumbering by BR would have been Wxxx, later WxxxW; the distinction is by time of repainting - before 1952 and 1952 onwards respectively. LMSR, LNER and SR also had various separate series for NPCCS.

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

Another oddity are the two groups of GWR E156 Composites built at Swindon in 1953 for the LMR

They are numbered continuously M16797W - M16876W.

There was at the same time several carriages on the LMR in the same number group e.g. M16858M which was an ex CLC vehicle.

So from 1953 'til 1958 there was both a M16858W and M16858M.

Confusing ain't it?

Not to BR - both were in LMR stock, but allocated to different regions for maintenance - the spares issue again. It's why the suffixes were introduced. One design of BR horse box was built by the LMR to an LNER design, but allocated to ER, LMR and WR, all suffixed E, but with regional prefixes.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Cwmtwrch
mistake

[Skinnylinny]

52 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

 

Does the photographic evidence also embrace the 2 lots after 1407 (i.e. 1445 and 1455)? 

Unfortunately the nature of photographs showing carriages is usually that the focus of the image is the loco at the front, and as such, it's often hard to read carriage numbers and thus to be sure to which lot they belong. Certainly none of the photos I've been able to find suggest anything other than 4 sets of truss rods, but if anyone has any evidence to suggest otherwise, please do let us know!

[The Fatadder]

1 hour ago, checkrail said:

Russell Part 2 (1903-1948) p192, Fig 328. annotation buried inside first para. on p193 about TPO vans. (Typical of the chaotic arrangement of the earlier Russell volumes!)

To be pedantic its fig 327 rather than 328, but it certainly explains where I saw the photo given the amount of time Ive spent looking at the TPO photos in Russell.  Glad my mind wasnt playing tricks on me ref the full Hawksworth liveried set!

 

Still cant remember where I saw photos of 6968/6969 though, im convinced its in the corner of a photo of something else which isnt going to help much... 

[Halvarras]

13 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I think, unfortunately, those are pressed steel bogies whereas the E145 had a type that were just longer versions of the 7 foot ones (I think known as "9' plate" but can't remember offhand)

 

I've consulted that article again and you are correct, it states that E147 vehicles had the "new.....9ft light-duty pressed steel bogies". For E145 it just says they ran on 9ft bogies, indicating they were an older design. There is a near side-on photograph of a pair of E147s (nos 6897/6896 in GWR single-lined livery with roundels - looks like a works cut-out view) which the caption confirms are fitted with pressed steel bogies. However the article's lead photo shows E145 W6161 at Newquay in August 1948 ('Newquay Branch No 3' on the end and still in GWR twin-lined livery) and I'm struggling to tell the difference in the bogie department! So those I've fitted are as close to the real ones as the rest of the model is, which is good enough for me........besides, I mainly model diesels so please cut me some slack!!!🤣

[checkrail]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

To be pedantic its fig 327 rather than 328

Of course - my mistake. Was looking at the number below the pic rather than above.  Not the easiest books to find one's way around as far as layout goes!

[The Fatadder]

4 minutes ago, checkrail said:

Of course - my mistake. Was looking at the number below the pic rather than above.  Not the easiest books to find one's way around as far as layout goes!

I think I must have re read 3 or 4 times before I realised if was your mistake and not the book. Kept wondering why the caption was referring to 327 rather than 328!

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The suffix W (M,E,S…) was introduced so that duplication of numbers with BR standard coaching in stock could be avoided.  It indicated the region responsible for the coach’s maintenance.

Oh no it wasn't.  Pre-nationalisation coaches were given a prefix letter and a suffix letter.  The prefix letter indicated the owning Region for operational use.  The suffix letter indicated the Region which was responsible for works level overhauls (which was usually thwe successor Region to the company which had designed and built the coach. 

[Pteremy]

I love all of this; I hate all of this. 'All my life' I have 'known' that E145s were E140s with different bogies. Because that is what Russell (p150, GWR Coaches Appendix v1) said, and was repeated by others. Now, over the years, I have learnt that the Russell books are not perfect. Even so they were the books for me, in the late 1970s, that converted me from someone who enjoyed playing trains into someone who was interested in prototypical reality. So here we are 40+ years later, and despite all those articles on how to improve Airfix/Hornby E140/E145s that never mentioned the underframe trusses, apparently at the point where we now know that E140s and E145s had the same body but significantly different underframes. Phew. If that is where we are. In one sense it does not matter. I can live with the difference, or fettle the difference. But it sort of takes the breath away for the truth to emerge after all these years.

[Corbs]

Hi folks, I come seeking advice (for which we are all very grateful, it helps us to improve what we make so much).

 

Thanks to forum members for sending over relevant pics of wartime brown, we have a draft (please be gentle) in progress:
 

 

The main references (and the running numbers) are from coaches pictured in a Model Rail Constructor article. 6453 and 6454 were at this time 'Kingsbridge Branch No.2' set, I imagine the scarcity of these pics is why Lionheart did the same running numbers for their model.

Colour - whilst Phoenix have a colour available for orange lining, I am yet to find a good match for wartime 'reddish brown'. The Pantone and RAL books I have don't really have a good match.
Has anyone got a recommendation for a paint they have used that we might be able to get mixed?

 

Numbers - Great Western Way makes a point of rationed materials in wartime and how existing stocks of transfers were used until they ran out.

 

With that in mind I am wondering whether the numbers are actually the older gold-shaded-black style instead of the yellow-outlined-black style as depicted above (and by Lionheart).
The 'G.W.R.', Guard and First decals are all in the newer style but the numbers look different.

 

 

This is what it looks like with the numbers from another set, in the old style, for comparison.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Corbs

[Miss Prism]

I slung together a preserved prototype pic (at Didcot) and your artwork above. It's a very unscientific comparison, but I would say the colour you've chosen is very close. I strongly suspect the GWR didn't care too much about the colour shade in the middle of the war - it's just another cheap red-brown oxide with a coat of varnish.