Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

Moving the centre of the bogie  inwards, together with the extra bogie length, might have had consequences for the positioning of the truss rods?

 

Would require substantial reconstruction of the underframe, I should think.

[Dunsignalling]

7', 8' and 9' wheelbase bogies seem to have been swapped around freely under Siphons at various times, so why would coaches be any different?

 

Weren't the 7' bogies on the Airfix B Set deliberately placed nearer the ends than they should be to reduce overthrow on train-set curves?

 

EDIT: The ones on the Rapido coaches appear similarly close to the ends, implying that the Diagram E140 was specifically designed around the 7' type.

 

John

Edited November 28, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[The Fatadder]

Absolutely fantastic news, given what a complete mess the old Airfix model is when compared to the prototype.  I have a set that I have detailed, but fixing the mess Airfix made of the recessed grab handles on the sides (doing it in reverse!) was always a step two far.  Now I can get a decent one off the shelf and retire the old ones.

 

Of course that means confirming the livery of 696/6969 in 1947 so I get Kingsbridge Branch no1 right this time, I think this extract of a 1952 photo in Russell shows at least that it was in chocolate and cream and single lined.  I am assuming it would have been G W R (in yellow unshaded) over crest rather than still in shirt button.  

GWR coaches Appendix 1, J H Russell, extract for discussion purposes only. 

 

On 26/11/2022 at 10:45, County of Yorkshire said:

Excellent news. Fingers crossed for more livery variations as I fancy a set in wartime brown. 
 

CoY 

@rapidoandy if you do look at doing a wartime brown pair in a future batch, you cant go far wrong with Kingsbridge Branch No2 (6453/6454) which was photographed in MRC during 1946 in lined warime brown with G W R over crest

[sjrixon]

Just seen these come through on a email from Hattons, they do look good! I really mustn't buy more coaches.. 

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, sjrixon said:

I really mustn't buy more coaches.. 

Why on earth not? Whatever one's chosen prototype, the chances are that the most recent RTR offerings offer new standards of accurate detail - and these vehicles are likely to be no different. If that then enables you to cascade older models - however lovingly upgraded - then so be it. Your layout deserves the best you can afford, if it is to satisfy you. Just do it. 

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

Do you know whether the 'pivot point' had to be moved on the prototypes? I had interpreted the photographic evidence re bogie and coach end as the result of the additional 3 inches on the 'outer' half of the bogie.  Moving the centre of the bogie  inwards, together with the extra bogie length, might have had consequences for the positioning of the truss rods?

 

I am hoping that this is merely a consequence of the models/bogies used in your conversions. Like you I would rather have the E145 version so hoping it is a simple swap.

 

I cannot say whether the bogie pivots were moved on the prototype but would assume that E145 vehicles were built to take the longer bogie (and therefore E140 to take the shorter, as suggested by @Dunsignalling above). I'm not aware of any Siphon G-style bogie swapping, perhaps this is the reason. I had hoped for a straight swap but, in order to get the longer bogies into the right positions, had to move the pivots slightly inboard - this wasn't easy as the new pivots were very close to the existing holes. I used the narrowest brass bolts I had but they all went in slightly off-vertical - simple answer, bend them to vertical (good job I used brass!)

Edited November 28, 2022 by Halvarras
Punctuation amendment - these things are important!

[Skinnylinny]

18 hours ago, checkrail said:

It will be interesting to see what sort of coupling arrangement Rapido comes up with for the inner ends.

18 hours ago, gwrrob said:

 

Already been discussed with @Skinnylinnyof this parish who I'm sure will enlighten us after recovery from the show.

Indeed, it was great to meet you, @gwrrob! We're currently planning a bar coupling between the coaches, to allow the set to move prototypically (i.e. no slack action as with tension-locks!), with a close-coupling mechanism on each vehicle. The bar will be fitted into a standard NEM 362 pocket at each end, to allow modellers to replace it should they desire. 
 

On 26/11/2022 at 10:25, Mike_Walker said:

Just a thought...  If Rapido are really clever in their design they will allow for future runs with 9' bogies and, he presto, a E145 variant.

 

Unfortunately, the underframe would also be different - the bogie pivot points would indeed need moving inwards, with the accompanying changes to close-coupling mechanism, trussing etc. The E145 also needs different buffers at the non-brake end, as not all had the short buffers associated with close-coupling with the E140 pairs. The "singles" also had traditional screw couplings at the non-brake end, rather than the protruding bar coupling fitting on the E140.

[Aire Head]

On 26/11/2022 at 21:24, Compound2632 said:

What is it with these GWR enthusiasts?

 

Some people don't know how lucky they are!

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

Some people don't know how lucky they are!

 

Or wanted E147s

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

I think this extract of a 1952 photo in Russell shows at least that it was in chocolate and cream and single lined.  I am assuming it would have been G W R (in yellow unshaded) over crest rather than still in shirt button.  

Looking at the full photo, this coach appears to be in BR Crimson; the appearance of a lighter colour above the waistline is an optical illusion. The LH number with prefix but no suffix indicates an early repaint by BR. It also has a "1" on the relevant door, but no other lettering.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Looking at the full photo, this coach appears to be in BR Crimson; the appearance of a lighter colour above the waistline is an optical illusion. The LH number with prefix but no suffix indicates an early repaint by BR. It also has a "1" on the relevant door, but no other lettering.

 

I'm glad you've said that - I was bemused. As you say, the W prefix is a bit of a give-away!

[The Fatadder]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm glad you've said that - I was bemused. As you say, the W prefix is a bit of a give-away!

I did find that a bit odd, as opposed to w6969w.  But the colour difference on that side just had me tricked…

 

back to searching for a photo I guess…

[Pteremy]

3 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

I cannot say whether the bogie pivots were moved on the prototype but would assume that E145 vehicles were built to take the longer bogie (and therefore E140 to take the shorter, as suggested by @Dunsignalling above). 

 

Thanks - I have realised that my maths is somewhat out - the bogies increased from 7' to 9' and that is an additional 1' either side of the pivot point. So more likely that some repositioning was needed than I was originally allowing for. But worth doing a bit more research I think. Compared with the elderly Airfix/Hornby version it ought to be possible to conjour up some decent E145s out of these with minimal compromise. As Taunton had both E140 and E145 B Sets I will be happy with a couple of different liveried E140 sets as they come. But I would like to fettle one E145 set simply because one was included in the formation of the last train out of Barnstaple Victoria in 1960. 

[Corbs]

46 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

I did find that a bit odd, as opposed to w6969w.  But the colour difference on that side just had me tricked…

 

back to searching for a photo I guess…

 

The suffix/prefix Ws did change over time from what I have read and the photo research, depending on when they were repainted.

This is why this set has W prefix only:

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/dia-e140-b-set-br-crimson-2/

and this set has W prefix and suffix:

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/dia-e140-b-set-br-crimson/

[Cwmtwrch]

The suffix was introduced in, I think, 1951; certainly some LH numbered coaches had the suffix added without a works visit, but normally numbers with a suffix were RH not LH.

[Corbs]

Found it, 1952 according to GWR.org.uk
http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1948.html

 

 

[melmerby]

On 26/11/2022 at 21:24, Compound2632 said:

What is it with these GWR enthusiasts?

 

Along comes a B-set to modern RTR model standards and it's slammed for either being better the ancient inaccurate Airfix model or for failing to represent a less common type of carriage.

Or they already have an accurately modelled B set as released by Hornby not too long ago.

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwe1366.htm

(That's a B set, just the 4 coach type, 2x E131 & 2x D98 both handed.)

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Or they already have an accurately modelled B set as released by Hornby not too long ago.

 

Indeed. Is it not the case that if one says "B set" one should specify which Division one is talking about?

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Indeed. Is it not the case that if one says "B set" one should specify which Division one is talking about?

Indeed, the B set in the Birmingham Division was 4 coaches of the types released, to good reviews, by Hornby.

Weren't the 4 car sets used in other divisons as well?

 

[Miss Prism]

16 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Weren't the 4 car sets used in other divisons as well?

 

Here's a list

[Pendennis]

Over the weekend I contacted Rapido regarding the liveries proposed for these coaches, I wasn’t sure which model to order for my post-war GWR layout; I received this reply today:-

 

As far as our research has shown the livery timeline for GWR coaches is as follows:-

 

1. 20's/early 30's - Great (CREST) Western

2. Late 30's/early 40s - Shirtbutton

3. Late 40s Crest with 'G.W.R.' above in small lettering.

 

I’m still not really sure whether they are going to produce the early-1930s livery or the late 1940s livery so my order has gone to Derails for their exclusive edition, I think I’ll be pretty safe with that one.

 

Martin

[Miss Prism]

6 minutes ago, Pendennis said:

1. 20's/early 30's - Great (CREST) Western

 

Bit difficult to do a '1920s' livery given the prototypes didn't appear until 1930.

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Bit difficult to do a '1920s' livery given the prototypes didn't appear until 1930.

Doesn't stop KR Models or Rapido for that matter when it comes to fictitious liveries.😃

 

To be fair in this case, they are referring to the longevity of the livery on all GWR stock not the specific coaches in question.

[88D]

I notice that the photo of the underframe shows four sets of truss rods. For this size of GWR coach, should this not be two? I’ll get my coat.

[The Fatadder]

1 hour ago, Pendennis said:

Over the weekend I contacted Rapido regarding the liveries proposed for these coaches, I wasn’t sure which model to order for my post-war GWR layout; I received this reply today:-

 

As far as our research has shown the livery timeline for GWR coaches is as follows:-

 

1. 20's/early 30's - Great (CREST) Western

2. Late 30's/early 40s - Shirtbutton

3. Late 40s Crest with 'G.W.R.' above in small lettering.

 

I’m still not really sure whether they are going to produce the early-1930s livery or the late 1940s livery so my order has gone to Derails for their exclusive edition, I think I’ll be pretty safe with that one.

 

Martin

Surely that should read

 as built - GWR over crest in shaded gold, seem to be options with single or double lining 

late 30s - shirt button (single line)

Early 40s. Most still in shirt button, some in lined wartime brown (eg the pair I’ve previously mentioned)

late 40s - GWR over crest in yellow, single lining.  Also great crest western (in yellow) with double lining, but this is rare.

 

 

for me I will go with the Derails version and remove the shirt button and add the GWR over crest.  I think I have a set of transfers for Kingsbridge Branch no1 In the transfers  box.  A wartime brown set will eventually follow, as there’s no way you can run a Rapido set with an Airfix set.  Just can’t justify £300 of coaches in one hit. (Particularly when half of them would be going straight in paint stripper.)