Pronunciation of railway associated words.

[Ohmisterporter]

Watching Father Brown yesterday when the principal actor spoke about repairs to the clerestory in his church. I have always pronounced this cle-rest-ory and heard other people doing likewise. Mark Williams pronounced it clear story. So which is correct?

Some years ago, when there were many fewer RMwebbers, we had a debate about the pronunciation of well known railway characters Bulleid and Maunsell. There are no doubt other personalities and equipment terms that mis-pronunciation can be applied to. Anyone have other words in mind?

 

P.S. Sorry this is a bit of a ramble; I am just getting over a migraine that left me struggling to compose a sentence.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Ohmisterporter
Corrected spelling of Bulleid following Andy Y's correction.

[Flying Pig]

Oh God, a pronunciation thread :)  The descriptivist fundamentalists will be along in a moment to tell us that there absolutely is no right way to pronounce anything and we can pronounce words any way we like so long as it's not the way we were told to.

 

On that basis, it's spelt cle-rest-ory but it's pronounced throatwobbler-mangrove.

[The Stationmaster]

I read years back, and I can't remember where but it was in a reference to buildings, that it should be pronounced clear-story.  And when you think about it that is its function as it does create  a storey/level which allows light into a building.  So having come across that I moved on from cler-est-ory to clearstory.  

 

I'd also hear it pronounced as 'clear-story' by older railwaymen and another decider as far as I was concerned was the railway telegraphic codeword 'nonclere' whivch would sound very strange it pronounced as non-cler-e.  The few folk I knew who had used the word pronounced it as non-clear.  BTW it meant that the train specified in the wire (aka telegram) was not to convey clerestory vehicles.

[AY Mod]

18 minutes ago, Ohmisterporter said:

well known railway characters Bullied

 

Failed your spelling test already! Bulleid!

[RFS]

Wikipedia says this 

 

In architecture, a clerestory (/ˈklɪərstɔːri/ KLEER-stor-ee; lit. 'clear storey', also clearstory, clearstorey, or overstorey) is a high section of wall that contains windows above eye level. Its purpose is to admit light, fresh air, or both.

Historically, clerestory denoted an upper level of a Roman basilica or of the nave of a Romanesque or Gothic church, the walls of which rise above the rooflines of the lower aisles and are pierced with windows.

Similar structures have been used in transportation vehicles to provide additional lighting, ventilation, or headroom.

[john new]

It is a clear storey, i.e. an area of see through/light allowing glazing within a wall. Railway enthusiasts have always got often get it wrong.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by john new

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, RFS said:

Wikipedia says this 

 

In architecture, a clerestory (/ˈklɪərstɔːri/ KLEER-stor-ee; lit. 'clear storey', also clearstory, clearstorey, or overstorey) is a high section of wall that contains windows above eye level. Its purpose is to admit light, fresh air, or both.

Historically, clerestory denoted an upper level of a Roman basilica or of the nave of a Romanesque or Gothic church, the walls of which rise above the rooflines of the lower aisles and are pierced with windows.

Similar structures have been used in transportation vehicles to provide additional lighting, ventilation, or headroom.

But it's largely irrelevant from a railway point of view, because mostly the glass in them for most of their lives were boarded up!

[big jim]

I’ve always (wrongly it would appear) said it clair-es-Tory!

 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by big jim

[john new]

Another GWR oddity - the Cornish Riviera

 

Should be riv - e - airer but not to us railwayacs it has become the riv - ear - a. (Hope those definitions make sense). 

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, john new said:

to us railwayacs it has become the riv - ear - a

 

I've honestly never heard it pronounced such - probably because us Midlanders like to make it sound like we went somewhere posh.

[Steamport Southport]

52 minutes ago, john new said:

It is a clear storey, i.e. an area of see through/light allowing glazing within a wall. Railway enthusiasts have always got it wrong.

 

Not all of us!

 

David Jenkinson in one of his books had a section on terms, origins and correct pronunciation. I think it was the Midland Carriages volume. Words such as tumblehome, cornice and clerestory.

 

Most had their origins in architecture, boatbuilding or horse drawn carriages.

 

 

Jason

[Reorte]

The argument for clear-storey seem to be pretty persuasive then, even though it's easier to read it as cle-est-ory. An annoying choice of spelling!

 

Another one (and I asked this a while back and it got answered, but I thought I'll through it in for being on-topic) is Claughton, the correct pronunciation of "gh" in English obviously being "anything and everything."

[Simond]

I used to live in Claughton.  It's "Claw-ton", which is pretty easy, but not much like the spelling.

 

I do recall a BBC news reader saying (the one and only time the place was famous enough to make the 6 o'clock news), "Cluff-ton".  It was funny when I was six.

 

 

[Paul H Vigor]

1 hour ago, john new said:

It is a clear storey, i.e. an area of see through/light allowing glazing within a wall. Railway enthusiasts have always got it wrong.

As an archaeologist and lifetime railway enthusiast I have, and do use both pronunciations! 😎

[melmoth]

I think we had this discussion a few years back. I remember asking about 'dynamometer',

[Jeremy Cumberland]

OED has /ˈklɪəstɔːri/ (clear-story)

 

But Alec Guinness (as Henry d'Ascoigne, the rector) says cle-res-tri in Kind Hearts and Coronets,

[big jim]

11 minutes ago, Simond said:

I used to live in Claughton.  It's "Claw-ton", which is pretty easy, but not much like the spelling.

 

bit like cholomendey near me, pronounced chumley

[Porcy Mane]

31 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

David Jenkinson in one of his books had a section on terms, origins and correct pronunciation. I think it was the Midland Carriages volume. Words such as tumblehome, cornice and clerestory.

 

 That'll ave been David Jenkinsons view of railway pronunciation, not the railway-mans  view of railway pronunciation. [(depending on what part of the county you hailed from) hail having at least two meanings in this context]  

[Steamport Southport]

19 minutes ago, Simond said:

I used to live in Claughton.  It's "Claw-ton", which is pretty easy, but not much like the spelling.

 

I do recall a BBC news reader saying (the one and only time the place was famous enough to make the 6 o'clock news), "Cluff-ton".  It was funny when I was six.

 

 

 

Depends on how Claughton pronounced it though as the locomotive was named after Sir Gilbert Claughton.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Claughton

 

Seeing as he seems to be a posh bloke from the Midlands it might be different to the places Oop North.

 

 

 

Jason

[LMS2968]

9 minutes ago, big jim said:

bit like cholomendey near me, pronounced chumley

I go through there regularly travelling to and from Bridgnorth. Several years ago, I witnessed an accident there and called the police. It all went pear shaped when the operator asked for the location.

[Porcy Mane]

15 minutes ago, big jim said:

bit like cholomendey near me, pronounced chumley

 

I once went out with a girl called "Cholmondeley". She would give me a right bollocking when I insisted on calling her Chol-mond-deh-lay.  We're still chumley though. 

 

Que Arry Henfield.

[Dagworth]

Anyone mentioned Minories yet?

[big jim]

Blacon and Lache, a couple of the more ‘colourful’ areas of Chester have the upmarket French inspired names of bla’con (pron: bla-sonne) and la’che (pron: la-shay)

 

Minories: I’d say that as miner-eees

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Another one is Shrugborough Hall. It's pronounced like that by the locals, but it's actually Shugborough Hall. One of those places you got dragged to when a kid.

 

I thought a set of nameplates I've got were wrong. Looked at the photos and they were actually wrong on the engine.

 

 

 

Jason

[Flying Pig]

10 minutes ago, big jim said:

Minories: I’d say that as miner-eees

 

I hear that miner-ees and miner-eeees are also acceptable, but miner-eeeees is right out.