Hornby Turbomotive

[zr2498]

I finally made a decision about the sound project for Turbomotive. The installation which includes ESU decoder, upgraded speaker, DCC control of firebox flicker and a stay alive, is detailed in this thread:

 

 

[Barry O]

I bought a BR lined Black one today. Very smart but the back to back on the wheels is varied.

It is fairly heavy.. I will be interested to see what it will pull after setting the b2bs and running it in.

 

Didn't intend to buy it but..    what a thing of great beauty!

 

And thank goodness I didn't get put off by Sam's Trains review.  He is a bit clueless regarding costs etc as well as technology. 

 

Baz

Edited October 21, 2023 by Barry O

[ColinB]

Actually Barry O, Sam's review was very good for this model the only thing derogatory he said about it was he was not sure it was worth the money. I think you will find a lot of people would probably agree with him on that one. He is comparing it with models from other manufacturers to come to that decision. I bought the red one I had it on pre order, it is ok, sadly it doesn't blow me away like the latest class 37 from Accurascale does, which is probably what he thought. As a company they could have done so much more, the firebox is not controllable under DCC even though the decoder is in the loco and the drawbar is the old design and as I said before what is the tender light all about, why would you want it controllable by squeezing the sides of the tender. My one has the Hornby HM7000 fitted but it appears no "stay alive". The sound fitted option though is the much better value option.

[jjb1970]

A model train is something you want or you don't.  I certainly think the Accurascale 37 offers better perceived value for money than the Hornby Turbomotive, but it's irrelevant if you are interested in the steamer and have little interest in the 37. That said there's also the category of 'it's not something I model but it is nice so I will get it' where price is probably a much bigger influencing factor whether or not to buy.

 

The thing with value is it's inherently subjective and a personal value thing. You can measure a models linear dimensions and test performance to provide an objective review. You can comment on shape, colour and other things and it is part subjective,  part objective.  With price and value, you consider it worth it or you don't and what others think is irrelevant. Saying it's expensive is obviously true for some people, others are happy to buy the model and think it worth it, which is true for them.

 

[ColinB]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

A model train is something you want or you don't.  I certainly think the Accurascale 37 offers better perceived value for money than the Hornby Turbomotive, but it's irrelevant if you are interested in the steamer and have little interest in the 37. That said there's also the category of 'it's not something I model but it is nice so I will get it' where price is probably a much bigger influencing factor whether or not to buy.

 

The thing with value is it's inherently subjective and a personal value thing. You can measure a models linear dimensions and test performance to provide an objective review. You can comment on shape, colour and other things and it is part subjective,  part objective.  With price and value, you consider it worth it or you don't and what others think is irrelevant. Saying it's expensive is obviously true for some people, others are happy to buy the model and think it worth it, which is true for them.

 

You are absolutely right, when I watched the Yesterday program about Hornby making those expensive car kits it was true there will always be people that will pay a premium for a product they want. On the other hand there will always be people that assess its value for money, in this case that is what the reviewer said. My view is that they could have done so much better, it seems they rushed the design or modified it at the last minute. Things like firebox flicker, most purists don't want it, the model is too expensive for a child to want it and people like me want it so it is controllable by DCC. The real joke is it wouldn't have cost them anymore to wire it differently. People pay a fortune for the unrebuilt West Country/Battle of Britain locos in both Hornby and Wrenn and that has got to one of the easiest locos to produce with minimal valve gear and slab body. I would really like to know the logic for including that back light and controlling it by squeezing the tender, there has to be a better and cheaper way to control it. Hornby don't design integrated circuits and they don't make enough to get one made, so that must be a commercially available product. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by ColinB

[spamcan61]

5 minutes ago, ColinB said:

 I would really like to know the logic for including that back light and controlling it by squeezing the tender, there has to be a better and cheaper way to control it. 

Don't Hornby use the 'magnetic wand' approach on the lighting for their 4 wheel coaches? It's becoming commonplace from other manufacturers anyway. Seems bizarre to implement this squeezing thing.

[The Stationmaster]

Value for money will always be a subjective thing, irrespective of price, because it is what you are deciding about the thing you have paid for or are considering buying.  

 

Comparing prices for similar models between manufacturers, or even talking about the price of a model from any manufacturer, is an area of considerable difficulty even if you go through their published accounts with a fine toothcomb.  The reason is simple - we don't know exactly how much work/cost has been put into the development of each model,  or the actual production cost, or how much their borrowing has cost due to delays getting the model delivered, or the effects of currency movements, or the rate at which they are seeking ti get the return on their investment and current costs, and so on.  

 

So very simplistic put we don't actually know if something is being sold at a high margin or a low margin so we don't know if it is 'expensive' or 'cheap' as far as the manufacturer is concerned.  All we know is how much we will have to pay for it and there we are  back to subjective values because we all have our own ideas about that  and we all have differing levels of disposable income.  I don't want a Turbomotive but, notwithstanding various information about the model posted in this thread, the price strikes me as being not unreasonable for a model of probably limited appeal to many modellers which in turn will limit the size of the run and thus increase the unit cost.  (And of course we do know that Hornby has been losing money and are seeking to improve their margins.)

[Michael Hodgson]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Value for money will always be a subjective thing, irrespective of price, because it is what you are deciding about the thing you have paid for or are considering buying.  

 

Comparing prices for similar models between manufacturers, or even talking about the price of a model from any manufacturer, is an area of considerable difficulty even if you go through their published accounts with a fine toothcomb.  The reason is simple - we don't know exactly how much work/cost has been put into the development of each model,  or the actual production cost, or how much their borrowing has cost due to delays getting the model delivered, or the effects of currency movements, or the rate at which they are seeking ti get the return on their investment and current costs, and so on.  

 

So very simplistic put we don't actually know if something is being sold at a high margin or a low margin so we don't know if it is 'expensive' or 'cheap' as far as the manufacturer is concerned.  All we know is how much we will have to pay for it and there we are  back to subjective values because we all have our own ideas about that  and we all have differing levels of disposable income.  I don't want a Turbomotive but, notwithstanding various information about the model posted in this thread, the price strikes me as being not unreasonable for a model of probably limited appeal to many modellers which in turn will limit the size of the run and thus increase the unit cost.  (And of course we do know that Hornby has been losing money and are seeking to improve their margins.)

VFM is very much a subjective thing, and depends to some extent on personal wealth.  If you want it and you're loaded, you probably care less about it than somebody who is struggling to afford it.

 

Comparing prices between differnt firms seems to me pointless.  Yes, it may well cost one company more than another were they to produce identical models to the same standard, but so what?  It may be that one company has worked a lot harder at the important parts of the job while the other has wasted a bit more time chasing down blind alleys or simply sitting there drinking tea.  At the end of the day, I'm going to decide to buy it or not to buy it depending on how much I want it or how much I can afford, not on what their profit margin is, which I don't even want to know.

 

I just don't care how efficiently or otherwise they got it to market or how much profit or loss they made on the deal, beyond an overall wish that they remain solvent as I have an interest in good products still being on the market  in the longer term.  Whether or not Hornby PLC survives would matter to me rather more if I were either a shareholder or one of their competitors of course.

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Value for money will always be a subjective thing, irrespective of price, because it is what you are deciding about the thing you have paid for or are considering buying.  

 

Comparing prices for similar models between manufacturers, or even talking about the price of a model from any manufacturer, is an area of considerable difficulty even if you go through their published accounts with a fine toothcomb.  The reason is simple - we don't know exactly how much work/cost has been put into the development of each model,  or the actual production cost, or how much their borrowing has cost due to delays getting the model delivered, or the effects of currency movements, or the rate at which they are seeking ti get the return on their investment and current costs, and so on.  

 

So very simplistic put we don't actually know if something is being sold at a high margin or a low margin so we don't know if it is 'expensive' or 'cheap' as far as the manufacturer is concerned.  All we know is how much we will have to pay for it and there we are  back to subjective values because we all have our own ideas about that  and we all have differing levels of disposable income.  I don't want a Turbomotive but, notwithstanding various information about the model posted in this thread, the price strikes me as being not unreasonable for a model of probably limited appeal to many modellers which in turn will limit the size of the run and thus increase the unit cost.  (And of course we do know that Hornby has been losing money and are seeking to improve their margins.)

My response was based on someone doing the usual character assassination on a reviewer just because they said it was expensive and up to the buyer whether they wanted one at that price. This loco I don't think is anymore expensive then any other Pacific in their range, I am pretty sure the 9Fs are about the same price. I preordered my Evening Star off Hornby when they first announced it so I got it a lot cheaper, to me the 9F is a nicer loco but that is my personal view. The only thing I will say on price is that Hornby are not instantly selling out of a model like they were a couple of years ago, even this one is still available in both red and black liveries. 

[MikeParkin65]

Being as this thread is nearly a year old, Warley 2023 approaches and we are way past the EP stage could the topic be edited now to a simple 'Hornby Turbomotive'?  - does the first poster - have to do that or perhaps @Andy Y could do it if he gets the chance 

[Coldgunner]

10 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Don't Hornby use the 'magnetic wand' approach on the lighting for their 4 wheel coaches? It's becoming commonplace from other manufacturers anyway. Seems bizarre to implement this squeezing thing.

Are the lights managed by the controller for DCC systems or is the tender squeeze required for both analogue and digital layouts?

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

or perhaps @Andy Y could do it if he gets the chance

 

Happened to spot this and edited the title. You'd tagged my old ID.

[Pete the Elaner]

21 minutes ago, Coldgunner said:

Are the lights managed by the controller for DCC systems or is the tender squeeze required for both analogue and digital layouts?

 

The tender light is also switched on & off by squeezing it on DCC. It defaults to on when the system is restarted which is a little annoying if you usually run it at the front of a train, which is what the headlamps indicate (& maybe also when the loco is removed from the track - I have not tried that).

[Coldgunner]

That's really not very ideal. Wonder if the squeezy tender can be disabled and bypassed?

[MikeParkin65]

55 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Happened to spot this and edited the title. You'd tagged my old ID.

Thanks @AY Mod :)

[adb968008]

I just look at a model and decide how much I want it.

As long as its in range, suitable detail and running quality i’ll be in.

I do tend to think how many I would want and that factors my desire to purchase.

 

Under £169 for a 37 i’m all over it and have a dozen, £250 for the Turbo i’m in for 1.

The difference being ive plenty of 37’s to go after, the Turbo i’ll likely only ever buy the one.

But switch that around and give me a £250 class 37.. i’m out, not even 1, but a £160 Turbo i’d still only ever buy the 1.

 

Now take the BR std 2MT… ive got 2, both at the original price of £178.. at £220 i’d only have 1, despite wanting 2, indeed if they dont sell out i’d consider a 3rd at a lower price but at £220 its pushing it over the line of value, for me £200 acts as a psychological barrier that my brain has difficulty accepting, yet £189 is only £11 less but i’d buy a couple… strange how the mind works, but £11 at my local bakery is breakfast and that feeds the mind.

 

its all about the desirability, uniqueness and if its a model thats a duplicate or first time tooled.

 

Note we do have a £250 class. 37, but ive so far only bought them when heavily discounted.

 

what is concerning is the increasing frequency of big ticket discounts… 10800 was. £249 discounted to £216 only a few months ago… tonight its in my inbox for £199… and yet I see them on sale everywhere.. will they follow the Bachmann 37 into £16x territory… that fear of wasting cash makes me hold off for longer… at £250 the difference between 20% off and 25% off is. £12.50.. which starts to make a difference at higher price points.

 

why wait 2 years for a model only to be a mug and pay £216 if you think its going to be £187 just a couple of months later ? - that £31 saved is half a tank in my car.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

We may be back to where we were a few years ago where to quote Dirty Harry, 'do you feel lucky?', and wait to see if a model is discounted? If it's a grail model then the risk of missing out may well outweigh the possibility of waiting and maybe getting a bargain. If it's a nice to have or something you're not that bothered about then it may well be worth just sitting and waiting, if you miss out you miss out but it's hardly the end of the world. We've been through a period where many models sell out very quickly which is ideal for manufacturers and dealers which followed a period where heavy discounting was normal, and people could take their time for most releases without the FOMO rush or pre-ordering.

 

That said, I think there are two separate and distinct aspects which can be conflated, price and availability. What I have found a bit annoying over the last few years isn't so much price (though I will complain) but availability. I will decide whether or not I like a model and buy, by definition if I buy it then I consider the model to be worth it. However I don't like pre-ordering, for various reasons. I've pre-ordered when it is something I really don't want to miss, but it's an exception and for 90%+ even of releases I'd like to buy (which is a very small percentage of total releases) I'd rather miss out than have an accumulation of pre-orders. I've missed out on stuff I'd like but c'est la vie, there's always other stuff.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

 

That said, I think there are two separate and distinct aspects which can be conflated, price and availability. What I have found a bit annoying over the last few years isn't so much price (though I will complain) but availability. 

I occasionally check ebay to see how much is available, for instance one random night in July 2016 there was..

Quote

on the UK ebay site, there are 104k items listed tonight in 00 model railways, 44k of them are marked as 'Used' for a country of 60million people.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/108794-Bachmann-2016-announcements/?do=findComment&comment=2361759

 

I did check during covid, there was a point only c 60k items were listed on ebay. I generally found 80k-100k was what was listed over the last few years.

 

Today, at 1030 there is 139816 results in 00… 40% more to buy

but 89,123 are marked “used”… this is a 100% increase in used… and accounts for most of that growth.

 

That tells me retail use of ebay hasnt changed, but more individuals are currently clearing out... is it recycling or cashing out ?

 

Certainly retailers have more available now than Ive seen for years, but seems ebay does now too.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by adb968008

[atom3624]

Has anyone noticed a slight chaffing of the centre driver boss paint?

I believe it'll be from where the coupling rod is articulated.

It doesn't seem to affect the performance, which is super smooth, so must be very very slightly catching.

I'll just have to live with it.

Al.

[Tony Wright]

On 21/10/2023 at 18:01, Barry O said:

I bought a BR lined Black one today. Very smart but the back to back on the wheels is varied.

It is fairly heavy.. I will be interested to see what it will pull after setting the b2bs and running it in.

 

Didn't intend to buy it but..    what a thing of great beauty!

 

And thank goodness I didn't get put off by Sam's Trains review.  He is a bit clueless regarding costs etc as well as technology. 

 

Baz

Good afternoon Baz,

 

As you know, I've conducted a review for BRM on the two Turbomotives and I can tell you their haulage capabilities are prodigious. 

 

 

I don't have enough carriages in LMS livery to give 6202 a 'proper' load, but these modified RTR ones proved to be mere flyweights. 

 

However,

 

I have more in BR livery, and this double-figure rake of all-metal ex-LMS kit-built cars (some I bought from you) didn't even cause 46202 to 'catch its breath' (I agree, it is a thing of beauty). It's Hornby's heaviest-ever steam-outline loco. 

 

I've posted on Wright writes about the back-to-backs on this pair being spot-on. 

 

I personally think they represent excellent value for money.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[atom3624]

One contributor mentioned the different 'colours' used by Hornby on the boiler and cab, then later concluded it was probably the paint finish.

I have Railtec Matt, Satin and Gloss brush on lacquers.

I have found the Satin close to Matt - just a touch of sheen on it so went straight to a very thin covering of the Gloss.

It's very slightly too shiny, but the difference is obvious.

It'd be difficult to show up with simple photos but I can confirm ... it works!

I just painted the C.L. on the cab roof.

Al.

Edited October 28, 2023 by atom3624

[zr2498]

On 25/10/2023 at 08:53, spamcan61 said:

Don't Hornby use the 'magnetic wand' approach on the lighting for their 4 wheel coaches? It's becoming commonplace from other manufacturers anyway. Seems bizarre to implement this squeezing thing.

Totally agree, much easier and common place for a magnetic switch.

For those that wish to weather their Turbo, finger and thumb prints on the tender sides will be a pain!

[faulcon1]

Having watch OO Bill in Scotland, the one thing I've learnt is that Chinese made locos have electrical issues as they age. One area of contention is the under the base keeper plate on Hornby steam outline models. The pickups from the locos wheels have to make contact with a small area on the chassis and over time that area becomes less reliable in electrical continuity. One fail safe way is to wire the pick ups directly to the motor but as there are already so many wires and more so with DCC another method is used. That is to place a tiny amount of solder on the pick up where it makes contact on the chassis base plate so when you screw the keeper plate down it applies a little more pressure to keep the electrical contact reliable.       

[faulcon1]

On 26/10/2023 at 23:13, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Baz,

 

As you know, I've conducted a review for BRM on the two Turbomotives and I can tell you their haulage capabilities are prodigious. 

 

 

I don't have enough carriages in LMS livery to give 6202 a 'proper' load, but these modified RTR ones proved to be mere flyweights. 

 

However,

 

I have more in BR livery, and this double-figure rake of all-metal ex-LMS kit-built cars (some I bought from you) didn't even cause 46202 to 'catch its breath' (I agree, it is a thing of beauty). It's Hornby's heaviest-ever steam-outline loco. 

 

I've posted on Wright writes about the back-to-backs on this pair being spot-on. 

 

I personally think they represent excellent value for money.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Tony you're running a test train not an in service train so all the coaching stock doesn't have to be LMS. I've found that the a Hornby Bullied light pacific will haul 19 coaches on the level and even a King class managed 24. But the railways are never level and they have gradients. So would Hornby's Turbomotive be able to haul 16 coaches up a 1 in 75 grade or is DCC Concepts power base still needed to provide extra traction. A test train is exactly that, a TEST so you can use all types of passenger rolling stock to find out what the maximum number of coaches the locomotive will haul  

[Barry O]

3 hours ago, faulcon1 said:

Tony you're running a test train not an in service train so all the coaching stock doesn't have to be LMS. I've found that the a Hornby Bullied light pacific will haul 19 coaches on the level and even a King class managed 24. But the railways are never level and they have gradients. So would Hornby's Turbomotive be able to haul 16 coaches up a 1 in 75 grade or is DCC Concepts power base still needed to provide extra traction. A test train is exactly that, a TEST so you can use all types of passenger rolling stock to find out what the maximum number of coaches the locomotive will haul  

The one I have has enough power to pull most London Midland train rakes.  16 coaches is not a typical train...

 

Baz