Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[andyman7]

On 13/01/2023 at 14:44, Chrisr40 said:

I'm glad Hornby are continuing to invest in dcc but an honest question about the new sound chips - do you think the volume of sales will repeat those of the original TTS chips ? Personally I liked the no nonsense plug it in and off you go and have a niggling doubt that whilst this new system is clever it's not as straight forward as before.  Whilst it's unlikely now I was hoping we would get some new preprogrammed chips.

 

On 13/01/2023 at 17:59, newbryford said:

 

I'm sure that any retailer worth his salt would be able to offer a preloaded decoder to customers, retaining the plug in and off you go for those that don't want to/can't upload a sound file. 

What these do is reduce the variation of retailer stock inventory from multiple decoders with different sounds, to just three types 

The thing with the TTS decoders is that universal availability couldn't be maintained - basic diesel sounds such as Class 31, 37, 40, 47, 55, 66, 67 or HST MTU being unavailable or very hard to find. The idea of not being limited to a short window of availability seems to be a great leap forward.

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

Very very true. Lets face it that's always been an bit of an annoyance with DCC sound. If you imagine where the eye is in relation to many model railways you're watching them from the perspective of being across the road and maybe at second storey level. What would you be able to hear from that distance? That is the volume at which I would set the sound.

Also you wouldn't be able to hear the door alarms or the guard;s buzzer. Plus I plan to mimic what I saw and heard on the real railway and not use the horn ever time a train moves unless they are loco hauled of course but then loco drivers are more used to being in yards where there are people around who need warning. Not criticising since if those are the rules then those are the rules.  Multiple unit drivers out on the main line seem to be less 'horn happy' (No sniggering at the back) and so that is what I'd try and recreate. I'm not too sure about the horn sounds so maybe I'll read up on it a bit before this comes out or someone from the 1:1 railway can do a post on this

Looks like sound will be my main focus for 2024 hehe

 

You can adjust the volume for individual sounds, and I tend to reduce the volume for sounds like coal shovelling and coupling compared to the main sounds. 

[SeanTT]

"Join the team as they discuss all the latest updates regarding TT:120 & the HM7000."

 

guess we will find out more on Thursday,

 

 

Saw somebody post the below:

 

https://polaris.brighterir.com/public/Hornby/news/rns/story/xj95vnw

 

it says "We are excited about the Group's 2023 product range which launches today. In particular the Group is launching this month a new control system for trains utilising Bluetooth® technology to connect to phones or tablets, which will replace traditional systems in the market."

 

however in the youtube video below at the very end they say Q2 2023 so could be anybody's guess, hopefully an answer on Thursday 

 

 

[Delta_Who]

 

Interesting that some of the listings are blanked out...

Also say, that diorama is pretty cute. haha

Edited January 14, 2023 by Delta_Who

[newbryford]

3 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Also say, that diorama is pretty cute. haha

 

That looks like an ESU Loksound decoder............

[Pmorgancym]

25 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Interesting that some of the listings are blanked out...

Also say, that diorama is pretty cute. haha

What's the difference  between sound decoder and sound generator fitted??   I presume they mean smoke generator fitted???

[5Dublo2]

39 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

What's the difference  between sound decoder and sound generator fitted??   I presume they mean smoke generator fitted???

I suspect that the word  Generator refers to the Steam generator - so should be for Flying Scotsman, an LMS 5MT and an LNER P2

 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

You can adjust the volume for individual sounds, and I tend to reduce the volume for sounds like coal shovelling and coupling compared to the main sounds. 

OK. I'll have a play around once I start adding sound to my locos. I need to get my layout started before anything else. Then see about DCC/sound etc. Like I said, for me that's something for 2024

[Nearholmer]

14 pages, which I haven’t read, so pardon me if this has been pointed out before:

 

If I understand this correctly, there is no reason why this can’t run from a battery on the train, rather than track power, which opens up the possibility of running “dead rail”, which is far, far better for some purposes.

 

Have I understood correctly?

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Nearholmer

[andyman7]

27 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

14 pages, which I haven’t read, so pardon me if this has been pointed out before:

 

If I understand this correctly, there is no reason why this can’t run from a battery on the train, rather than track power, which opens up the possibility of running “dead rail”, which is far, far better for some purposes.

 

Have I understood correctly?

 

 

There was long discussion near the beginning about this, including some quite detailed responses about the challenges. Probably best not to reheat that debate 😳

 

[Nearholmer]

Ah, yes, I’ve found it now!

 

 In summary:

 

- yes, it could be used “dead rail”;

 

- some people think that’s a terrible idea.

 

For the tinkerer, it certainly seems to represent a valuable resource though: a very high functionality wireless controller that can be used with battery power supply (where there is space in the model), doesn’t need a proprietary handset, and is supported by a major supplier. All we need to know is what the controller is rated at, and then tinkering can commence. I’m thinking that it should be able to cope with small 0 scale locos on a shunty sort of layout, and probably some very small LGB locos when used in similar mode, for instance.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Nearholmer

[NIK]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

14 pages, which I haven’t read, so pardon me if this has been pointed out before:

 

If I understand this correctly, there is no reason why this can’t run from a battery on the train, rather than track power, which opens up the possibility of running “dead rail”, which is far, far better for some purposes.

 

Have I understood correctly?

 

 

Yes, it looks like if you can generate 15 volts DC of enough amps within the train then you can use the HM7000 decoders providing you don't exceed the yet to be published current limits on the outputs.

 

Regards

 

Nik

Edited January 15, 2023 by NIK

[Nearholmer]

It will be interesting to see whether it actually needs 15V.

 

I’ve used the superficially similar Lionel system, which has a nominal 18V (iirc) input requirement, but actually works happily way below that. In fact, I used to set the input voltage down low to prevent my children being able to run the locos at anything like full speed, thereby cutting derailments to nil. 
 

If the controller is PWM, which it probably is, all the input voltage does is define the maximum output voltage achievable, although there is likely to be some minimum input voltage below which the device itself cannot function.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It will be interesting to see whether it actually needs 15V.

 

I’ve used the superficially similar Lionel system, which has a nominal 18V (iirc) input requirement, but actually works happily way below that. In fact, I used to set the input voltage down low to prevent my children being able to run the locos at anything like full speed, thereby cutting derailments to nil. 
 

If the controller is PWM, which it probably is, all the input voltage does is define the maximum output voltage achievable, although there is likely to be some minimum input voltage below which the device itself cannot function.

 

 

 

The decoders (i.e. the controllers) operate as NMRA DCC decoders with the Bluetooth capability nailed onboard.

I would imagine the NMRA DCC electrical standards for min and max voltage apply.

 

Note:

Nominal is the recommended figure.

The min and max figures are designed as limits to protect the decoder.

Booster (Power Station) min & max outputs are set a few volts well within those limits.

 

 

....................absolute min.........nominal...........max

N                          7v                        12v                24v

00/H0/0               7v                        15v                27v

Larger scales      7v                        18v                27v

 

 

 

.

[JSpencer]

14 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

That looks like an ESU Loksound decoder............

 

It is. They used that photo several years ago in one of their catalogues.

[RAF96]

15 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Interesting that some of the listings are blanked out...

Also say, that diorama is pretty cute. haha

 

According to my catalogue 004 is HST Valenta engine, 011 is Princess and 023 is Class 66.

Also the last three should obviously talk to smoke generator not sound generator (I always understood a sound decoder to be a sound generator). The difference being there will be parameters set in the profile for the chuff sound to smoke puff synch.

Edited January 15, 2023 by RAF96
More info added

[RAF96]

11 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The decoders (i.e. the controllers) operate as NMRA DCC decoders with the Bluetooth capability nailed onboard.

I would imagine the NMRA DCC electrical standards for min and max voltage apply.

 

Note:

Nominal is the recommended figure.

The min and max figures are designed as limits to protect the decoder.

Booster (Power Station) min & max outputs are set a few volts well within those limits.

 

 

....................absolute min.........nominal...........max

N                          7v                        12v                24v

00/H0/0               7v                        15v                27v

Larger scales      7v                        18v                27v

 

 

 

.

 

I can confirm the decoders are rated to 27v.

[RAF96]

On 13/01/2023 at 14:26, RedgateModels said:

just noticed the stay alive socket for the Next18 and 8 Pin sound decoders (same PCB) is not fitted. The solder pads are there though, handily labelled C+ and C-

 

Early days 😉

 The socket is on the other side, all 7000 decoders  have a socket, ditto speaker socket for the sound decoders

[dimonic]

On 13/01/2023 at 07:09, TomScrut said:

 

I think it's an interesting idea that what we have in the locos isn't enough.

 

See the first thing I do is turn the volume down on sound locos. My point of view on the layout is more that of a plane than being stood next to the track and therefore I don't think the locos should be filling the room with sound, just like in the real world once you're a decent distance from a train it's audible but not deafening.

 

I'd actually like to get into a situation where I can get my locos running around the layout with sound without it sounding like a cacophony.

Absolutely agree - I like to stand very close to a loco, and hear it build to a crescendo and diminish to nearly inaudible - when it is a couple hundred yards (scale 2.4 m) away.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Do we know what the consisting capability will be, in the HM DCC app and HM7000 decoders?

If the plan is just to allow double heading, i.e. just 2 locos in a consist, that would be very limiting and would fall below the consisting capability of most regular DCC systems.

 

Another question I have…

Is there a possibility of incorporating automatic speed matching with this Bluetooth technology?

The only digital system that currently provides this function, is the proprietary Ring Engineering RailPro system, which has been on sale for around 10 years.

The American RailPro system is completely proprietary, but has a certain degree of compatibility with DCC.
As with the various BlueTooth and WiFi DCC systems that are already on sale, control signals are transmitted directly over the air and motive power is provided via the track (DC, DCC, AC) or by battery power.

Automatic speed matching is a dynamic ( real time) feature that sees all loco decoders in a consist, talking to each other and matching their speeds to the lead loco (load sharing).
No more speed matching by trial and error CV editing. It’s instant and completely automatic, with no user action required.

 

 

 

.

 

[Nile]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Do we know what the consisting capability will be

 

I got the impression from one of the vids that it is something they are still working on.

[melmerby]

On 15/01/2023 at 11:55, RAF96 said:

 The socket is on the other side, all 7000 decoders  have a socket, ditto speaker socket for the sound decoders

Hope the production ones don't have that cobbled link on the PCB.

[RAF96]

At present double heading is not supported by the app but will be later.

Auto-calibration of motors is provided in the decoder, so I wonder if you lashed up two locos with the same address and set them off on auto-cal if they would synch well enough.

Dynamic self synchronising is not something I had heard of. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by RAF96

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

Auto-calibration of motors is provided in the decoder

 

I wonder how that works then? Do the two decoders speak to the app to allow them to understand when they are fighting each other? Like even calibrating the back EMF voltage won't mean the decoder knows how fast the loco is going compared to another if the gearing is different on both locos?

[Ron Ron Ron]

42 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

At present double heading is not supported by the app but will be later......

 

Any idea of the maximum number of locos in a consist?

A few systems can have up to 8, even if that's a bit excessive for British outline.

 

 

42 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

.......Dynamic self synchronising is not something I had heard of. 

 

RailPro has had it since its launch some 9 or 10 years ago.

The decoders and all other nodes, talk to each other, but that uses another wireless data protocol (possibly ZigBee?) and not Bluetooth.

 

 

.