Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[letterspider]

On 16/04/2024 at 08:36, RAF96 said:

I am sure there was a comment on the Hornby forum that the sound decoders in the International models were ESU not TXS but the 2024 international range launch did ref to TXS fitted locos. A question for Hornby tech to confirm-deny. SD500 is the only one listed so far (for Rivarossi E656 FS). It is presumed the Hornby sound  Tech Team schedule will be driven by the International Teams demands - if and when issued.

 

Brilliant news - the E656 is the loco I want to chip!

This is a good step by Hornby and hopefully more will follow

Edited April 18 by letterspider

[RAF96]

10 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Thanks Jenny. I have just a couple of questions if I may please.

1/ Is there a compresseur sound? (very distinctive on these EMUs coming on almost after every braking action)

2/ The sound seemed a little off (tinish) to my mind, could that be the recording? Or wires taped to the top of the speaker (not sure if this has an effect)? 

2/ - Function list here - https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/8917/0868/1362/SD027_-_4VEP_Function_List.pdf

[JSpencer]

13 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

2/ - Function list here - https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/8917/0868/1362/SD027_-_4VEP_Function_List.pdf

Excellent. Look forwards to this.

[newbryford]

23 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Thanks Rob, I will contact George.

 

A&H Models are listing the v3.6 upgrade on their website.

https://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/lenz-set100-software-version-36-1883-c.asp

 

George has replied.

Not a good answer as he cannot foresee any further development to work with non-Hornby systems.

The recommendation was to buy a Select or Elite to allow full use of the dongles.....

 

Anyone want to buy a HM7000 dongle?

[franciswilliamwebb]

48 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

George has replied.

Not a good answer as he cannot foresee any further development to work with non-Hornby systems.

The recommendation was to buy a Select or Elite to allow full use of the dongles.....

 

Anyone want to buy a HM7000 dongle?

 

That's bad news.  I was following HM7000 with interest for use on my embryonic return to OO, but not being xPressNet compliant is a deal-breaker unfortunately😕

[Caledonian Gateway]

Is there any update when the class 91 and 800 sound files are due to be released please? It says Q1 2024 on the list but we are past that now.

Thanks

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

4 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

George has replied.

Not a good answer as he cannot foresee any further development to work with non-Hornby systems.

The recommendation was to buy a Select or Elite to allow full use of the dongles.....

 

Anyone want to buy a HM7000 dongle?

Disappointing but classic Hornby. "Let's develop a product which is 99% compatible with an existing standard, but cripple the remaining 1% and limit it to the Hornby faithful." 

I've also been using the dongle with a Lenz LZV100 with v3.6 of the software. In terms of loco control the only thing that doesn't work for me is Functions 13-26. Functions 0-12 and, bizarrely, 27 and 28 work fine. Support for functions 13-28 was added to the XpressNet specification 3.6. Maybe the Select and Elite implement those functions in a way that's non-compliant with the XpressNet spec? Probably a pretty straightforward problem to fix in the dongle firmware, but as we've seen, highly unlikely that Hornby will bother. 

As the ease of triggering functions from the app is one of the main attractions of the dongle, this is a deal breaker.

Haven't tried points or accessories yet. 

[RAF96]

3 hours ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Disappointing but classic Hornby. "Let's develop a product which is 99% compatible with an existing standard, but cripple the remaining 1% and limit it to the Hornby faithful." 

I've also been using the dongle with a Lenz LZV100 with v3.6 of the software. In terms of loco control the only thing that doesn't work for me is Functions 13-26. Functions 0-12 and, bizarrely, 27 and 28 work fine. Support for functions 13-28 was added to the XpressNet specification 3.6. Maybe the Select and Elite implement those functions in a way that's non-compliant with the XpressNet spec? Probably a pretty straightforward problem to fix in the dongle firmware, but as we've seen, highly unlikely that Hornby will bother. 

As the ease of triggering functions from the app is one of the main attractions of the dongle, this is a deal breaker.

Haven't tried points or accessories yet. 

Try setting the Elite-Select switch in the dongle settings screen to each option, as these settings affect the way higher functions are implemented.

Hornby has replied that of their 3 x LZVs in hand, one is at rev 3.6R hence they will look up their testing notes next week and let me know.

I think George meant they wouldn't be looking at supporting other protocols e.g. Railcom, etc

[newbryford]

48 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

Try setting the Elite-Select switch in the dongle settings screen to each option, as these settings affect the way higher functions are implemented.

Hornby has replied that of their 3 x LZVs in hand, one is at rev 3.6R hence they will look up their testing notes next week and let me know.

I think George meant they wouldn't be looking at supporting other protocols e.g. Railcom, etc

 

Alas, for me at least, that wasn't the wording in the reply I got.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot foresee us doing more development in order to facilitate other non-Hornby DCC controllers.

 

[WIMorrison]

13 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Unfortunately, I cannot foresee us doing more development in order to facilitate other non-Hornby DCC controllers.

 

That seems pretty definitive to me, and would be inline with Hornby's previous history of developing something that sort of meets the standards (XpressNet in this case) but when it doesn't they are not really that worried because they want to operate in a walled garden, which for clarity means that they want everyone to remain completely within the Hornby environment and interoperability outside the Hornby walled garden is not  something that they will invest time, money or interest in.

[JSpencer]

TBH, given the price point, I am not surprised that the Dongle probably won't work as well on other systems. Though I get that the initial marketing seems to have been a bit over enthusiastic.

 

The fact that it ties in well with Hornby's own systems (though not the eLite) seems normal enough to me.

 

In the DCC world, TXS is low end entry point. Like TTS, it is reasonably good at covering a lot of subjects for a lower cost than a full fat high end sound chip. But takes up less space than TTS.  Locos that I thought I would never add sound too, due to space and not really designed with sound in mind (about 80% of my locos were brought between 2003 and 2013) , can be made DCC sound. I can run them adhoc on the layout from my telephone or bring them under full DCC (only 1/3 of my collection will get DCC, the rest runs under DC).

Leaving the high end full fat DCC sound for "preferred" locos where high quality is a must. 

 

 

[RAF96]

55 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

TXS ..... But takes up less space than TTS

TXS was slammed for being larger than NMRA spec, so unlikely to be smaller than TTS.

[Bulleidboy100]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

TBH, given the price point, I am not surprised that the Dongle probably won't work as well on other systems. Though I get that the initial marketing seems to have been a bit over enthusiastic.

 

The fact that it ties in well with Hornby's own systems (though not the eLite) seems normal enough to me.

 

In the DCC world, TXS is low end entry point. Like TTS, it is reasonably good at covering a lot of subjects for a lower cost than a full fat high end sound chip. But takes up less space than TTS.  Locos that I thought I would never add sound too, due to space and not really designed with sound in mind (about 80% of my locos were brought between 2003 and 2013) , can be made DCC sound. I can run them adhoc on the layout from my telephone or bring them under full DCC (only 1/3 of my collection will get DCC, the rest runs under DC).

Leaving the high end full fat DCC sound for "preferred" locos where high quality is a must. 

 

 

I have the Dongle plugged into a Hornby Elite and it's working well - I have not plugged the second one in yet - old Elite's have two ports.

Edited April 19 by Bulleidboy100

[JSpencer]

45 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

TXS was slammed for being larger than NMRA spec, so unlikely to be smaller than TTS.

 

The overall package with the speaker is smaller than TTS. It means that older 8 pin locos with chip holders in the loco body instead of the tender can now often have the chip and speaker placed into the smokebox. Even the smallest sugar cube is quite loud and clear.

Under TTS, the supplied bigger round speaker had to be located in the tender, while the chip went into the smokebox (some sources saying TTS were suitable for sugar cubes). 

 

Next 18 seems to be the main one oversize as most RTR locos using that are designed to the NMRA size spec. I have not used those yet (too few locos with them and none are Hornby so...).

Edited April 19 by JSpencer

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

Under TTS, the supplied bigger round speaker had to be located in the tender, while the chip went into the smokebox (some sources saying TTS were suitable for sugar cubes). 

Any 8ohm speaker will suit TTS. I have never used the supplied speakers with any TTS I have fitted. One uses a Zimo dumbo one. The improvement in sound quality over the supplied one is marked. 
 

Bob

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Any 8ohm speaker will suit TTS. I have never used the supplied speakers with any TTS I have fitted. One uses a Zimo dumbo one. The improvement in sound quality over the supplied one is marked. 
 

Bob

Would the TXS suplied speakers be a possible upgrade? Some of my TXS-equiped locos came withe pre fitted speakers, so I have some spares.

[Bob83a]

5 hours ago, JSpencer said:

TBH, given the price point, I am not surprised that the Dongle probably won't work as well on other systems. Though I get that the initial marketing seems to have been a bit over enthusiastic.

 

 

I believe that the Dongle is just a media converter, it changes the Bluetooth/wi-fi to serial and more importantly changes the speed from megabit to kilobit. To do that it does need to buffer the data for a short while. It almost certainly does not change any of the Xpressnet protocol. It is the app then generates the Xpressnet and that is where changes may be required to improve the compatibility.

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

18 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Try setting the Elite-Select switch in the dongle settings screen to each option, as these settings affect the way higher functions are implemented.

Hornby has replied that of their 3 x LZVs in hand, one is at rev 3.6R hence they will look up their testing notes next week and let me know.

I think George meant they wouldn't be looking at supporting other protocols e.g. Railcom, etc

Thanks for the tip. It didn't work initially but... 

 

Good news - all 29 functions now working with the Lenz LZV100 with v3.6! Had to reset and completely reinstall the dongle firmware and the app. Set to "Elite".

 

Still a bit temperental on power on - sometimes Bluetooth doesn't connect, sometimes it connects but doesn't send any commands to the track. 

 

But still great progress compared to half the functions not working. 

[newbryford]

3 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Thanks for the tip. It didn't work initially but... 

 

Good news - all 29 functions now working with the Lenz LZV100 with v3.6! Had to reset and completely reinstall the dongle firmware and the app. Set to "Elite".

 

Still a bit temperental on power on - sometimes Bluetooth doesn't connect, sometimes it connects but doesn't send any commands to the track. 

 

But still great progress compared to half the functions not working. 

 

Does it work with long addresses? 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

47 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Does it work with long addresses? 

Just tested. No, unfortunately not, no long addresses. I can probably live with that but it's still annoying. 

[ColinB]

31 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Just tested. No, unfortunately not, no long addresses. I can probably live with that but it's still annoying. 

Ok I may be telling my granny to such eggs but does the z21 app work with the Lenz LZV100?

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

21 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Ok I may be telling my granny to such eggs but does the z21 app work with the Lenz LZV100?

The Lenz LZV100 has no Bluetooth or WiFi so no built-in app support of any sort. It is fully compliant with XpressNet. 

 

The Z21 app can be used via the 3rd party "XP-MULTI" dongle made by the German electronics firm MXion. The dongle is connected to the LZV100's XpressNet port and connects to the phone by WiFi, either directly or via WiFi router. Loco addresses and functions work properly unlike the Hornby dongle. Programming isn't supported, like the Hornby dongle. It can also be used with Loconet command stations to add Z21 app control to them. But it's more expensive than Hornby at €67.

 

While I enjoy tinkering with the dongles and trying out the Hornby and Roco apps, I've found the open source Arduino-based DCC-EX system and Engine Driver app much more reliable and easier to use. The support is also great unlike the Hornby "walled garden" attitude; you message the dev team on Discord and get rapid answers. And it's much cheaper - parts cost £20 and it takes around an hour to assemble a full DCC system. 

[ColinB]

30 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

The Lenz LZV100 has no Bluetooth or WiFi so no built-in app support of any sort. It is fully compliant with XpressNet. 

 

The Z21 app can be used via the 3rd party "XP-MULTI" dongle made by the German electronics firm MXion. The dongle is connected to the LZV100's XpressNet port and connects to the phone by WiFi, either directly or via WiFi router. Loco addresses and functions work properly unlike the Hornby dongle. Programming isn't supported, like the Hornby dongle. It can also be used with Loconet command stations to add Z21 app control to them. But it's more expensive than Hornby at €67.

 

While I enjoy tinkering with the dongles and trying out the Hornby and Roco apps, I've found the open source Arduino-based DCC-EX system and Engine Driver app much more reliable and easier to use. The support is also great unlike the Hornby "walled garden" attitude; you message the dev team on Discord and get rapid answers. And it's much cheaper - parts cost £20 and it takes around an hour to assemble a full DCC system. 

Great, thank you for the information and taking the time to explain it. I bought a Digikeijs and have recently upgraded it with the new WiFi hardware which makes talking to the z21 app easier. As an ex software programmer I was really impressed with the z21 app. I can now see why you are using the Hornby dongle. Surprisingly I have an Elite which I bought broken and fixed it. I have to admit even with its wonky interface (the dial that increments settings when you press it) it is great for programming locos. Useless though for the layout when you have more than one loco, hence the Digikeijs, that I bought because I like the user interface (multiple windows, one for each loco). 

[GrumpyPenguin]

6 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 chip holders in the loco body instead of the tender can now often have the chip and speaker placed into the smokebox

The speaker in a steam outline locomotive should be in the smokebox, after all, that's the end that the sound comes from on the prototype.

 

Recently, I had a Trix BR05 - a long locomotive & the speaker was in the tender, once my ears were attuned to the sound comming from the "wrong" end of the locomotive I could not live with it, so off it went.

[BrakeCoach]

Has anyone put one of the sound versions into the Hornby Railroad Duke of Gloucester?

 

Thinking of getting a few of these for my models but not sure if the old ones without tender circuit board housing would fit. I would have to put both the decoder and the speaker into the boiler.