Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[JSpencer]

3 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

 

The decoder just needs to be powered up to work. The sound comes from the decoder.

The decoder will run under pure DC controller conditions but as per a legacy DCC decoder it will be unreliable in control as when the analogue voltage is turned down the decoder will die until rebooted when the voltage is turned up again.

The track can be powered direct from a PSU if required.

 

 

Thanks, that is logical. I can just leave the DC controler at full whack and run it via blue tooth using the phone.

 

 

[leonk]

I wonder how long before JMRI has the protocol reverse engineered so it can talk directly to the locos.   

[Nile]

As I read it, when using a DC controller you turn it up to max and use the HM7000 to actually drive the loco. It's not clear if the loco can be "driven" by a DC controller alone.

[Colin_McLeod]

4 hours ago, Kris said:

The ability to easily download and change sounds on your decoder is a game changer. 

 

So can I download sounds to one of these and have it play Beatles' hits 😁

 

[JSpencer]

1 minute ago, RAF96 said:

 

Unlikely. The logic is the App sends Commands to the dongle, which translates passes them to the controller which send DCC to the track which is picked up by the legacy decoders as usual.

The new decoders send commands over the air, which is why they can read and write all CVs in seconds.

 

Ok, It was more a question of my PC currently running every DCC fitted loco I have + layout accessories, signals, point motors, detectors etc.

I can program the PC to run the layout itself.

 

However someone else replied CV12 can make it switch from BLE to classic DCC, so I guess if I needed this loco to run on an automated layout, I could do so easily by switching CV12.

 

Yeah, I going to experiment with a couple of these.

[RAF96]

2 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

and how good the motor control is - if it's up to Lenz/Zimo standards then they are on to a winner IMHO

Pretty good. After auto-calibrate I have locos creeping on speed step 1 up a 2% gradient. Throughout the range it runs smooth and with the Power Bank it will run for a considerable distance on dead track.

Incidentally the Power Bank only charges when the loco is on the move so making service track programming no problem, but then again when would you need it given read and write PoM over the air.

Each decoder sound profile downloads a basic motor control algorithm for the chosen loco, which can be improved upon by auto-calibrate and then if required by further adjustment of individual PID parameters. It is well explained in the tome of a user manual for the decoder range.

[Edge]

4 minutes ago, Nile said:

As I read it, when using a DC controller you turn it up to max and use the HM7000 to actually drive the loco. It's not clear if the loco can be "driven" by a DC controller alone.

My reading of it is that it cannot be driven by the DC controller alone, but then again one must presume that if you’ve gone to the trouble of getting and fitting the Bluetooth decoder that you wouldn’t particularly want to

[Nile]

6 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

So can I download sounds to one of these and have it play Beatles' hits 😁

 

 

That would be a premium sound file you'll have to pay for, lots.

[RedgateModels]

OK, been doing some digging, As X-bus and NCE Cab bus use the same protocol (RS485), and devices such as this exist

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253119197806

 

it may be possible to plug the Legacy Dongle into an NCE Powercab too .....

[JohnR]

2 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

 

it may be possible to plug the Legacy Dongle into an NCE Powercab too .....

 

Was going to be my next question....

[Jenny Emily]

I asked SK a few questions to clarify details on this system. His answers to questions below:

 

 

Would I be right in thinking that these can be run and controlled via Bluetooth on a DC system using the app on a smartphone? I presume in this mode they take their power via DC and get controlled on Bluetooth?

Ans: The loco will need to be fitted with a Bluetooth decoder and controlled by the HM7000 App. The power to the track can be supplied by DC with control on full power.

 

Do the decoders also work on a standard DCC system being controlled and written to/read from using any other brand of DCC system?

 

Ans: Correct.

 

Can the Bluetooth system be used at the same time as also running non Bluetooth decoders on the same layout without interference?

 

Ans: Yes

 

What range does the Bluetooth have to control the locomotives?

 

Ans: Far enough for it not to be an issue.

 

Can two or more smartphones be used at the same time to run more than one Bluetooth enabled loco on the same layout at the same time?

 

Ans: In short, yes. 1 user with their smartphone can control multiple HM7000 decoder fitted locomotives at one time on a given layout. Another second user can also control multiple HM7000 fitted locomotives on the same track layout at the same time, but they cannot control user 1’s locomotives and vice versa. There is a method to pass over control of locomotives from 1 user to another

 

Are the sounds on the decoder updated entirely over Bluetooth using the app or do they need a compatible base station to do this?

 

Ans: All updates come via the App.

[RAF96]

3 minutes ago, Nile said:

 

That would be a premium sound file you'll have to pay for, lots.

 

It has been suggested that they had a Vent Van 3, 4, 5, etc to add to the Beatles wagons.

The downloadable sound profiles are limited to those listed in the presentation slides Andy put up, but no doubt the range will expand.

[scottrains29]

It says it works with Hornby e-link, but does the e-link actually have an expressnet port?

Perhaps the dongle is meant to plug into the pc.

[Agent Cooper]

So just because you have a spare RJ12 socket on your existing DCC set up does not mean it will work with the dongle. More I look into this seems that has to be a Lenz XpressNet protocol based controller (Hornby Select, Elite and Roco Z21 as the stated examples). Well done Hornby on the blank and non sound decoders with plug in Stay alive and speaker options. Legacy control will need a bit more thought but a nice step. 

[RAF96]

17 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

It says it works with Hornby e-link, but does the e-link actually have an expressnet port?

Perhaps the dongle is meant to plug into the pc.

 

There was a plan to convert the eLink to include an RJ port but it was canned. The unit can only be used to put DCC voltage onto the rails as a power source.

[NIK]

I will be interested to see if there are problems with the Bluetooth antenna being close to metal chassis.

 

With the diecast bodied Deltic Prototype DP1 model Hornby have announced maybe they will make the fuel tanks of plastic to maximise the strength of Bluetooth comms.

[John ks]

I wonder if Hornby & Soundtray Blunami had some sort of collaboration 
Both systems seem very similar
One thing Blunami talks about is dead track,I.E. battery power

 

The next bit is pure speculation & to be done at your risk 
If you were to connect a battery to the stay alive socket I would think the loco would run until the battery went flat
Another possibility would be to have a rechargeable battery with a charging circuit connected to the pickups &the battery feeding  the decoder 
I also think that if you ran this loco on a DC layout you could run a DC loco controlled by a normal DC controller at the same time

 

Maybe someone clever than me could design a Power Bank that uses a battery instead of super capacitor’s & give the loco a run time of up to an hour with no recharge & could recharge from the track when there was voltage on the track. 
John
 

[Legend]

3 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Thanks, that is logical. I can just leave the DC controler at full whack and run it via blue tooth using the phone.

 

 

Thats what I’m thinking , but seems too good to be true . So does this mean you can run a sound loco , fitted with the HM7000 on conventional DC with the controller turned full up and control it via the app . This would explain why it replaces the HM6000 for DC control 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Legend

[AY Mod]

For more information and a hands-on demo see https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/video-hammant-and-morgan-hm7000-what-is-it?fbclid=IwAR1hDU4JLhR0_53QBn64ZO_-De0C-FYp7s75IPIckWeKHxAQ7CGUJyAr8pU

 

 

[John ks]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

So does this mean you can run a sound loco , fitted with the HM7000 on conventional DC with the controller turned full up and control it via the app . This would explain why it replaces the HM6000 for DC control 

IF, when you say "fitted with the HM7000" do you mean fitted with the decoder then my understanding is YES

My understanding is that the decoder needs power & that power can be DC, DCC or an onboard battery, (see my previous post)

[NoggintheNog]

So, looking at the video, for those running lenz, Hornby or ECoS systems, that £30 dongle is -by far- the cheapest way of getting wireless control for an existing layout.

 

Depends on the app in its final form of course, but that is pretty impressive.

[meatloaf]

So from that then it looks like i can get a decoder and use my existing controller to power the track so that the decoder can be programmed with the sound file. Then the loco can be controlled as normal from any dcc system.

 

 

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, meatloaf said:

So either way it isnt just the decoder that i need to buy. I'll probably need the dongle also which is another £30 odd quid. 

 

So for the prefitted 08, 56 and 73 - can i buy it in the shop and run it on a non Hornby system like my prodigy without the need to buy extra equipment.

 

If the dongles needed as well as the decoder it pushes the price up much closer the the zimo / eus sound. Although this would only be for the first decoder

 

Looking at it another way - i guess this could be a way of making my prodigy wireless. I dont know. Certainly i think it would void my guagemaster warranty as they probably say the use of 3rd party equipment voids it. 

I may be wrong, I often am, but I don’t believe the Prodigy system has any capacity to accept or deal with Xpressnet etc. It’s ports are simply to connect the controllers, or as I have just done, add the separate wi-fi module to be able to use phones/tablets. 
 

Bob

[newbryford]

I know it's an early ask.

What's the speaker impedance?

i.e. Can I use it with a loco already fitted with speaker(s) to change to a HM7000 decoder?

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Key for me  - will the steam projects synch the exhaust sound with the wheel revolutions? If they do then Hornby have a game changer on their hands.

Nope as there’s no way to do that without all locos having a sensor on the wheel or axle to do the synch. You can get close electronically but it always goes out. Zimo & Esu have inputs for it on their decoders but there’s not even mention of being able to alter the cv for chuff rate on these Hornby ones so far. You can alter cv’s but that requires Hornby to have those cv’s accessible. 
 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by PaulRhB