Warley NEC National Show 25th & 26th November 2023

[MarkSG]

39 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

It's non-profit making in the sense that any surplus goes to support the club or fund next year's show. It isn't a "commercial" business and there are not shareholders taking a return from profits.   

 

2 minutes ago, polybear said:

If the income exceeds the outgoings then they've made a profit; what they then choose to spend it on is immaterial. 

 

Welcome to the world of finance and accounting, where the word "profit" means many different things according to context 🙂

 

As an event, Warley is profit-making as it is intended to generate a revenue surplus for the organising entity, Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd.

 

As a company, Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd is profit-making as it is a private company limited by shares. Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd is wholly controlled by Warley Model Railway Club.

 

As an organisation, Warley Model Railway Club is non-profit-making as it has no shareholders and all trading revenue is retained within the organisation.

 

The word "profit" has a different meaning in all three of those statements.

 

[Barry O]

17 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

If the income exceeds the outgoings then they've made a profit; what they then choose to spend it on is immaterial.  It was mentioned earlier that Warley MRC is registered at Companies House** - it is, as a Charitable incorporated organisation.

 

**Presumably (IANAL) to protect the Club and it's Members from personal liability if things go pear-shaped.

 

 

 

 

 

Well @polybear.. being a CIO has its positives. Running a big show like that just held at the NEC could result in club members being liable for a covering a large financial  loss. Being a CIO does help to protect the members from financial liabilities.   The way the show is run has been explained in detail on threads on RMWeb over the years.

 

Baz

[BluenGreyAnorak]

A group of friends and I have been going to Warley for the last 15 years or so and thoroughly enjoy it every time. We usually do the Saturday, stay overnight nearby and travel home the following morning. This year though, a couple of us went back on Sunday, which made for an interesting contrast as the latter was a much more relaxed affair.

 

By and large, the mix of layouts were great. Yes, I found some more appealing than others but that's only natural when there's such a broad range on offer. A few of my personal highlights were the 3mm rendition of Portsmouth (despite finding the gauge too fiddly for my taste), the coal-fired live steam V2 hurtling around the Gauge 1 track, South Pelaw although I'd seen it before at Expo EM, the O gauge layout with all of the catenary (name escapes me) and Clyre Valley, which was beautifully presented. A special mention too, for Dawlish Warren. I'm not that keen on N Gauge layouts and rarely spend much time in front of them, but this one evoked childhood memories of holidays in the late '70's, particularly when running blue grey stock, so thanks for that.

 

Clyre Valley included my absolute favourite detail of the show, which was this signal that featured a fully operational mechanical route indicator!

 

 

I enjoy seeing the manufacturers stands, particularly their soon to be released models, of which there seemed to be a bumper crop this year. I've got quite a few on pre-order so seeing them in the 'flesh' beforehand is a bonus. I got to handle the painted sample of the Q13 inspection saloon on the Locomotion stand, which was rather nice, and I was delighted to see the HST prototype in Bachmann's display case.

 

 

I'm a little perplexed by some of the comments about lack of smaller traders as I found lots of interesting stuff in the forest of smaller stands that existed. I can only think that those comments are from people who are aggrieved that their particular favourite trader was absent but there seemed to be plenty of new small traders willing to take their place. They're just doing different things to the more traditional ones. For example, I was pleased to pick up an etched brass kit for some GWR benches, a laser cut kit for a barrow crossing (to hopefully become a servo-driven uncoupler) and some beautifully fine 3D printed BRUTE trolleys, all from smaller stands. Also, whilst I didn't buy on the day, I'll be in touch with Absolute Aspects for one of their operational theatre boxes once I've worked out what I need! 

 

Anyway, many thanks to all those involved from Warley MRC and of course the traders, layout exhibitors and demonstrators for your time and effort in putting on the biggest show in railway modelling. Long may it continue.

[Mike Bellamy]

 

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

As an event, Warley is profit-making as it is intended to generate a revenue surplus for the organising entity, Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd.

As a company, Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd is profit-making as it is a private company limited by shares. Warley MRC Exhibitions Ltd is wholly controlled by Warley Model Railway Club.

As an organisation, Warley Model Railway Club is non-profit-making as it has no shareholders and all trading revenue is retained within the organisation.

 

The way it was explained to me several years ago was that the Club is a Charity and the exhibition is organised by the Ltd Company. The Ltd Co was set up for the move to the NEC as the club committee wanted to protect the club in case it was a disaster - of course it was a great success and over the years the surplus has enabled the Ltd Co to buy the clubroom which is now rented to the club. The Ltd Co in turn can donate surplus funds to the charity and so as Mark says, the surplus is retained with the organisation - I expect there are also tax advantages by charging rent and donating to charity.

 

We do exactly the same thing at our local Community Centre which is a charity but the volunteer led tea-rooms are operated by a Limited Company - the Community Centre charges the Tearooms rent and all surplus funds from the Tearooms are donated to the centre.

.

[melmerby]

When we had a guest house we became members of Keswick Tourism Association.

It was a non profit organisation to promote the members and Keswick tourism and it's activities were paid for by a membership fee.

It was at the time not a limited company and changes to/clarification of the law meant that any member could be liable in case of a legal claim.

To make sure that didn't happen it had to become a limited company.

[Chris M]

The comments on this page regarding the club set up are largely accurate. Whilst there is a limited company to protect the club it is far from a normal company as nobody gets any pay at all. I must point out that if it wasn't for many Warley club members giving hundreds of hours of their time for no reward over the whole year this show would have made a thumping great loss every year for the last 30 years. The cost of the time put in, even at minimum wage, would be hugely more than any excess of income over expenditure. Many of the members involved in the show are professionals who would command a lot more than minimum wage for the work they do towards the show. I'm sure this is appreciated by pretty much all the folk on this forum. The same applies to all shows put on by model railway clubs, its just that this one takes a lot more work to make it happen. I reckon I spend 2 or 3 hours  a week on average every week of the year doing work purely for the Warley show and I am not one of the main exhibition committee members. 

 

Those of you of around my age may well remember that during the 1990s the hobby felt as though it was in the doldrums and slowly fading. The main driver behind Warley club creating the NEC show was to create a spectacle to show off the hobby and help to reinvigorate it. That's why so many of us have given so much time to it and continue to happily give our time.

[Phil Bullock]

And those efforts certainly are appreciated Chris. Thank you. 

[Roy L S]

9 hours ago, polybear said:

 

If the income exceeds the outgoings then they've made a profit; what they then choose to spend it on is immaterial.  It was mentioned earlier that Warley MRC is registered at Companies House** - it is, as a Charitable incorporated organisation.

 

**Presumably (IANAL) to protect the Club and it's Members from personal liability if things go pear-shaped.

 

 

 

 

 

To be pedantic, in the context of a model railway show it is typically called a "surplus" rather than a profit. What that can be spent on is usually defined in the rules of a club, but will normally be to maintain/pay for premises and support modelling and other associated activities, it can't just be spent on anything and certainly not things like wages.

 

In terms of claiming back expenses, speaking personally and for most of my fellow club members, we never go so far as to calculate it down to the mile at a given rate per mile, if we claim at all, it is usually only a contribution we ask for, we take the view that (1) we are supporting the hobby and the exhibition by keeping our expenses down and (2) other layout owners very often do the same so they support our show when it comes to it.

 

There isn't any right or wrong here though, individual circumstances differ, but what I would expect is a club to honour the expenses we quote in the booking form, we may decline to take it on the day, but that would be our choice.

 

Roy

[Chris M]

16 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

To be pedantic, in the context of a model railway show it is typically called a "surplus" rather than a profit. What that can be spent on is usually defined in the rules of a club, but will normally be to maintain/pay for premises and support modelling and other associated activities, it can't just be spent on anything and certainly not things like wages.

 

In terms of claiming back expenses, speaking personally and for most of my fellow club members, we never go so far as to calculate it down to the mile at a given rate per mile, if we claim at all, it is usually only a contribution we ask for, we take the view that (1) we are supporting the hobby and the exhibition by keeping our expenses down and (2) other layout owners very often do the same so they support our show when it comes to it.

 

There isn't any right or wrong here though, individual circumstances differ, but what I would expect is a club to honour the expenses we quote in the booking form, we may decline to take it on the day, but that would be our choice.

 

Roy

The limited company that runs the show does actually make a profit of loss. The company then donates any available funds to the club which can only have a surplus and not a profit. It is written into the Warley club rules that officers cannot be paid for their club work.

 

It is considered normal across the layout exhibitor community that taking a layout to a show will cost the owner more than the expenses claimed. I think next year a few of us will be clubbing together to pay for van hire that will not be claimed on expenses. Its no big deal, we will do it because we want to support the organisation behind the exhibition, and we will enjoy it.

[Roy L S]

4 minutes ago, Chris M said:

 

 

It is considered normal across the layout exhibitor community that taking a layout to a show will cost the owner more than the expenses claimed. I think next year a few of us will be clubbing together to pay for van hire that will not be claimed on expenses. Its no big deal, we will do it because we want to support the organisation behind the exhibition, and we will enjoy it.

And here I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head Chris, taking a layout to a show is an extension of the hobby and an enjoyable one at that (albeit transporting and setting up can have it's stresses), it is a chance to show our layout and talk to people about it, and that is why I and Club colleagues never seek to cover all our costs and very often decline taking any expenses at all. I also take the view that very often were I not exhibiting I would have travelled to the show in question anyway and bought an entry ticket and some lunch on top so would have incurred greater cost anyway.

 

Roy

[MarkSG]

8 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

The way it was explained to me several years ago was that the Club is a Charity and the exhibition is organised by the Ltd Company. The Ltd Co was set up for the move to the NEC as the club committee wanted to protect the club in case it was a disaster - of course it was a great success and over the years the surplus has enabled the Ltd Co to buy the clubroom which is now rented to the club. The Ltd Co in turn can donate surplus funds to the charity and so as Mark says, the surplus is retained with the organisation - I expect there are also tax advantages by charging rent and donating to charity.

 

We do exactly the same thing at our local Community Centre which is a charity but the volunteer led tea-rooms are operated by a Limited Company - the Community Centre charges the Tearooms rent and all surplus funds from the Tearooms are donated to the centre.

 

Yes, that's a very common setup whereby membership based organisations (clubs, trusts, charities, etc) have a separate trading entity to handle the commercial aspects of of the organisation's role (eg, selling products, organising events, etc). It both protects the core organisation from any financial difficulties experienced by the trading company and allows the trading company more freedom to engage in commercial activity than the core organisation. You can see that in action at almost any level, all the way from a village hall up to the National Trust.

 

So there's nothing at all unusual or esoteric about the way that the Warley show is structured financially. It just means that descriptions such as "profit-making" and "non-profit" have to be qualified by reference to which level of the structure you're referring to.

[Hobby]

47 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

taking a layout to a show is an extension of the hobby

 

Surely someone doing one of the Demo stands is the same unless it's demonstrating a product/service which they are then selling, in which case they're a trader?

 

Thanks to the others for clarifying the "Ltd Co" background and why many clubs do it, I think many Societies are the same, certainly the 009 Society is.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Hobby

[Roy L S]

6 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Surely someone doing one of the Demo stands is the same unless it's demonstrating a product which they are then selling, in which case they're a trader?

 

 

Personally I would 100% agree with you, promoting a club or association with a demo stand is essentially "selling" your hobby or specific area of interest to a wider audience.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Roy L S

[roundhouse]

On 28/11/2023 at 07:30, Roy L S said:

 

There isn't any right or wrong here though, individual circumstances differ, but what I would expect is a club to honour the expenses we quote in the booking form, we may decline to take it on the day, but that would be our choice.

 

 

Absolutely agree.

 

We try to keep expenses down and in a few cases dont expect / claim any but we cant afford to do all the shows on that basis. Our layout mover was bought especially for shows and we only charge fuel , tolls and now ULEZ costs etc (no wear and tear but thats our own choice). Some years ago we would do over 20 shows a year but these days its far less due to fewer helpers being available.

 

In the past we have only had one show that tried to pay us way less than we had asked for. It was a commercial show and after quite a struggle we were paid and I gave them the benefit of doubt in that they misread the form. One other had accepted our invite based on our requirements but then much nearer to the time of the show then said they couldnt afford our full crew and would only pay for very few so we declined.

 

One thing that has come to mind is how do people that charge their electric cars at home deal with requests for expenses receipts as we have a few helpers that do, as  very few shows insisted on receipts for fuel but more and more are starting to do so. In the past Warley asked for them but only if you had them as it wasn't essential.

 

I am getting a bit nervous of doing the larger shows and will wait to see how this pans out before deciding on accepting the larger /  more commercial orientated ones in future as I am mindful that I will not be able to get the operators if I dont get the expenses to cover them or have to pay out of my own pocket which isnt as easy these days now that I am not working full time.

 

update

 

expenses all paid by Saturday so all sorted amicably.

Edited December 2, 2023 by roundhouse

[Hobby]

1 minute ago, roundhouse said:

the larger  more commercial orientated ones 

 

That's an interesting point, I'd regard those shows as different to a Club show (which, it's worth remembering that despite it's size that's what Warley is!). I'd assume that a show run by a commercial business will firstly look to make a profit for that business and secondly will have factored in exhibitors expenses and made it clear at the outset what people can claim for. Perhaps that's the one positive thing that came out of this sorry part of the discussion, the need for clarity at the outset from both sides, hence my original post on the subject where I felt (and still feel) that it would have best been discussed between the individual and the club privately rather than aired on here.

[40F]

Remember that in any club there are 1 The Doers 2 The canters and 3 The wont`ers, Guess which ones moan the most.

[Barry O]

16 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Surely someone doing one of the Demo stands is the same unless it's demonstrating a product which they are then selling, in which case they're a trader?

 

Thanks to the others for clarifying the "Ltd Co" background and why many clubs do it, I think many Societies are the same, certainly the 009 Society is.

If you are one of the Show "Demonstrators" it is not acceptable to sell from the stand at the show. Traders and some of the Societies have "demos" which can have sales . One of the demonstrators was "selling" items at this years show and was asked to desist from doing so.

 

I had a very nice bit of feedback at the weekend. A Grandad and grand son came along on Saturday afternoon. They watched how I was  using ink and powder for weathering.

 

They returned on Sunday with some wagons they had bought. Grandson then set off and weathered his 21T Hopper wagon. He was well chuffed with the work.. as was his grandad as he said "he suffers from sever ADHD".. he was very very happy .. as were those around him as he completed his weathering with little intervention from anyone else.  A very positive outcome for all concerned.. and its a major part of the reason for having the demos at Warley...

 

Baz

[ruggedpeak]

5 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Perhaps that's the one positive thing that came out of this sorry part of the discussion, the need for clarity at the outset from both sides, hence my original post on the subject where I felt (and still feel) that it would have best been discussed between the individual and the club privately rather than aired on here.

Amen to that. Let's get back to layouts, aisles, rucsacs and body odour.

 

Warley will be fine. It will evolve and adapt like everything else has to in the new world of chaos!

[roundhouse]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

I had a very nice bit of feedback at the weekend. A Grandad and grand son came along on Saturday afternoon. They watched how I was  using ink and powder for weathering.

 

They returned on Sunday with some wagons they had bought. Grandson then set off and weathered his 21T Hopper wagon. He was well chuffed with the work.. as was his grandad as he said "he suffers from sever ADHD".. he was very very happy .. as were those around him as he completed his weathering with little intervention from anyone else.  A very positive outcome for all concerned.. and its a major part of the reason for having the demos at Warley...

 

Baz

I had someone who made regular visits to my demo stand to watch what I was doing on both days. No questions but just happy to sit there to watch and have a chat. Plenty of others with queries and hopefully I was able to point them in the right direction.

[Ian Morgan]

It is interesting to note that at many classic car shows, the exhibitors actually pay for the privilege of showing off their pride and joys to the public.

 

[WIMorrison]

8 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

It is interesting to note that at many classic car shows, the exhibitors actually pay for the privilege of showing off their pride and joys to the public.

 

 

I suspect that would mean no layouts being shown at all on the model railway circuit if that approach was adopted 😂

 

There are a couple of shows that I exhibit at which are for genuine worthwhile causes (in my view) and I do not charge them any expenses at all when asked to exhibit, and to date they haven't asked for a donation.

[PaulRhB]

10 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

It is interesting to note that at many classic car shows, the exhibitors actually pay for the privilege of showing off their pride and joys to the public.

 

Many military model shows also do that but that’s not how railway shows have developed. We had a commercial company try that several years ago and we replied saying no thanks as the established method is you pay expenses and accommodation if too far to drive in a day. They followed the established method because they got similar responses from others. If you’re making money off it then expenses should be offered. 

Warley still makes a surplus, or whatever, so quite rightly they cover expenses and accommodation like everyone else. I do the shows of the two groups I’m involved with for free like Chris does for Warley but to take my layout I took in 2019 would have cost me around £400-600 in rooms depending what discounts were available, plus £175 in fuel for four cars at 20p per mile. I designed the layout to fit cars as van hire had got so expensive on top of fuel. I can’t justify spending £600 plus to do a show when that will pay for a lot models and i certainly can’t afford to do several a year. 

The current system works so is best left alone I think, expense caps should have been made clear and agreed in advance, not advised at the show though. 

I’ve always found Warley accommodating and it was chatting to Chris in the expenses queue one year that I mentioned we’d had an additional expense due to van hire rising steeply which I was going to take on the chin. As I had receipts they were happy to cover it and that was very kind.
I never add on extras to my expenses, I always try to do it as cheaply as possible, fuel and accommodation and I’ve also supported local shows I’m not a member of with minimal or in the case of charitable ones no expenses. 

[Porcy Mane]

25 minutes ago, Ian Morgan said:

It is interesting to note that at many classic car shows, the exhibitors actually pay for the privilege of showing off their pride and joys to the public.

 

Showing just how dissimilar exhibition cultures operate. I guess if that's how (most) Model Railway shows tried to operate there would very quickly be no shows to attend.

[PaulRhB]

35 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Showing just how dissimilar exhibition cultures operate. I guess if that's how (most) Model Railway shows tried to operate there would very quickly be no shows to attend.

Yes, certainly as we know them!

 

I know some people are so keen to exhibit that they would pay to go but you’d find many like me who won’t and would just enjoy it with friends. We have hired halls to do modular meets and to set up our small layouts as a group ‘open day’, private and public. What you’ll find is it will be all the same local layouts though as many won’t build new each year. That’s not going to inspire public and newcomers as much though. If I go to Warley as a punter I can just do it in a day with friends and it’s tiring driving both ways, alone I’d go by train. Shows like York or Modelrail Scotland I make a weekend of it or a mini holiday as a punter so don’t mind the expense as it just a day out. I can’t do that with a layout though as it would be sat vulnerable in the car for the rest of the time. 
Costs have risen so I’m happy to pay more to go in to make the shows viable. I don’t think Warley is extortionate even with parking if you go as three or four to split the parking. £10 for localisj shows is getting more common and I don’t mind that either to support them and make it viable to have exhibits from further afield. If you charge that and exhibit the same cheapest / free layouts only then I may not come back again. I go to shows to see certain layouts, Copperwort, Bridport Town, Andeer Line etc in recent years so everything else is a bonus on top of those. 

[Hobby]

Of course many classic car shows are also free to the car owner, I've been to lots over the last couple of years years in our car and haven't had to pay at any. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Hobby
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