Torpedo Molten Ore Wagon

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

If that's all that sold I see a big problem, especially if this quote from the first e mail is to be taken literally:

 

 

 

 

 

I only hope the "100s of thousands of pounds" came from KR Models' own funds and not from pre payments of any other model.

I have no idea what models cost but if Bachmann can spend £1m tooling for 47s in all their variety, “100s of thousands of pounds” sounds a lot for a wagon, even if it is motorised. No wonder they’re desperate!

[jonhall]

I wonder if KR felt that since a continental manufacturer had done a motorised one he had to do the same, however I wonder if anyone will ever see one rotate? I think the Oxford railgun at around £50 for a basic model that won't break the bank for an impulse buy* might have been a better bet

 

Having just returned from a brakevan tour around Scunthorpe (not for the first time) the loading and unloading occur undercover, I haven't felt the need to order a set.

 

Jon

*yes - I bought one :) 

[GWR-fan]

While not having expertise in today's tooling costs,  surely a basically tooled car like this would not cost the amount stated to manufacture.  It has little detail and even the lid seems tooled into the body thus reducing complexity.  With today's automated CNC machining and computer software,  the tooling for this car would most likely have been relatively inexpensive.  The car is as tooled and it would seem no further modifications were intended so the more expensive slide tooling would possibly not have been used,  thus lowering costs.   Unless there was a size restriction on the die-injection moulding machine then there would be no further injection moulding machinery costs.    A locomotive tooling representing all the modifications the prototype received in its lifetime would be extremely expensive as different slides for each modification would be needed.  How the manufacturer is able to claim the tooling costs on this molten torpedo car does surprise me.

 

With a stated 387 existing customers prepared to buy the twin pack,  then perhaps the manufacturer was intending a production run of around 1000 individual units (500 twin packs).  I do doubt that they would have seen a market demand any larger than this.  Given the manufacturer's stated production costs then any cost analysis per item would have shown the project to be unviable prior to production.

 

When you pick a niche product then you rely on the fickleness of the purchaser.  For most it is not a must have item.  The email stream does imply a level of desperation.

[adb968008]

I hate to deliver a coup de grace to this interesting email promotion but….

 

You can buy them from Rails at £160 (Static) or £180 (DCC fitted with motor)  with no upfront deposit or payment.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/kr-models-krm-tor-oo-dc-pair-of-torpedo-molten-iron-ore-wagons-non-rotating

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/kr-models-krm-tor-oo-dcc-pair-of-torpedo-molten-iron-ore-wagons-dcc-rotating

 

Thats £7 better than the special offer from KR Models direct, in the promo that ends on Wednesday….

 

and considerable better than the 
 

Quote

When we make it available to the public, it will be priced at £227 for DCC and £187for DC (non-rotating)...at the very least.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by adb968008

[No Decorum]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I hate to deliver a coup de grace to this interesting email promotion but….

 

You can buy them from Rails at £160 (Static) or £180 (DCC fitted with motor)  with no upfront deposit or payment.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/kr-models-krm-tor-oo-dc-pair-of-torpedo-molten-iron-ore-wagons-non-rotating

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/kr-models-krm-tor-oo-dcc-pair-of-torpedo-molten-iron-ore-wagons-dcc-rotating

 

Thats £7 better than the special offer from KR Models direct, in the promo that ends on Wednesday….

 

and considerable better than the 
 

 

 

Not £8?

[adb968008]

14 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Not £8?

 

Details details.

 

inflation ate the other 1.

 

😁

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I have no idea what models cost but if Bachmann can spend £1m tooling for 47s in all their variety, “100s of thousands of pounds” sounds a lot for a wagon, even if it is motorised. No wonder they’re desperate!

The words '100s of thousands' imply a sum in excess of £200,000 - maybe even more.  Excluding trade sales they say they have 387 sales which presumably amounts to 774 individual wagons.   Past examples of KR's use of english in their ads etc does sometimes include what might be best described as 'an unusual choice of words' so there might be some inexactitude in various phrases in their emails.  And a sum in excess of £200,000 to develop a large wagon, even with DCC involvement, does seem a hefty sum for a small concern with very low overheads.  Using their figures there does seem to be something well adrift here.

 

A run of 1,000 wagons will load a development cost of at least £200 onto each wagon sold.   Obviously the development  cost element per wagon will vary according to the number ordered so doubling the run to 2,000 wagons (=1,000 sales) and the development loading drops to £100 per wagon.  To me something simply doesn't sound right about these numbers.  For a start the implied sales target seems ambitious for what is really a very niche model (but some niche locos have sold in far greater numbers than that - so maybe they will sell in thousands, one day).   Secondly the development cost seems to have gone off the scale somewhere, particularly for a small concern like KR.  And finding that amount of money might not have been easy although it could no doubt be raised by mortgaging property or using its value to secure a loan.

 

So somewhere all of this either KR might have gone a bridge model too far or they aren't quoting accurate numbers.  But all else aside they are obviously trying hard to boost sales - for whatever reason.  Unlike a British registered company they have no readily accessible financial details so we don't know the impact this is likely to have on their financial position nor do we know how they are funding the extra capital this project is absorbing.  The latter is clearly their business - not ours - but, as already said, I trust that it is not being supported in any way by advance payments for other models.

[tomparryharry]

I heartily approve the idea of this torpedo wagon: In any scale. After all, if it does come to fruition, then there's hope for my much -requested Taff Vale O4. Or, a 26xx Aberdare. 

 

Meanwhile, our much-respected poll administration & compiler team..... "Oh no! Not 'im again!.....!"

 

I can dream, can't I?

[The Stationmaster]

30 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I heartily approve the idea of this torpedo wagon: In any scale. After all, if it does come to fruition, then there's hope for my much -requested Taff Vale O4. Or, a 26xx Aberdare. 

 

Meanwhile, our much-respected poll administration & compiler team..... "Oh no! Not 'im again!.....!"

 

I can dream, can't I?

Problem with the TVR O4 and the 'Aberdare' is that they are not niche enough.  mond you once manufacturers have moved through their emerging 'NER phase' we might be able to turn their eyes towards the real coalfield.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The words '100s of thousands' imply a sum in excess of £200,000 - maybe even more.  Excluding trade sales they say they have 387 sales which presumably amounts to 774 individual wagons.   Past examples of KR's use of english in their ads etc does sometimes include what might be best described as 'an unusual choice of words' so there might be some inexactitude in various phrases in their emails.  And a sum in excess of £200,000 to develop a large wagon, even with DCC involvement, does seem a hefty sum for a small concern with very low overheads.  Using their figures there does seem to be something well adrift here.

 

A run of 1,000 wagons will load a development cost of at least £200 onto each wagon sold.   Obviously the development  cost element per wagon will vary according to the number ordered so doubling the run to 2,000 wagons (=1,000 sales) and the development loading drops to £100 per wagon.  To me something simply doesn't sound right about these numbers.  For a start the implied sales target seems ambitious for what is really a very niche model (but some niche locos have sold in far greater numbers than that - so maybe they will sell in thousands, one day).   Secondly the development cost seems to have gone off the scale somewhere, particularly for a small concern like KR.  And finding that amount of money might not have been easy although it could no doubt be raised by mortgaging property or using its value to secure a loan.

 

So somewhere all of this either KR might have gone a bridge model too far or they aren't quoting accurate numbers.  But all else aside they are obviously trying hard to boost sales - for whatever reason.  Unlike a British registered company they have no readily accessible financial details so we don't know the impact this is likely to have on their financial position nor do we know how they are funding the extra capital this project is absorbing.  The latter is clearly their business - not ours - but, as already said, I trust that it is not being supported in any way by advance payments for other models.

 

When they seem to have issues getting details accurate, and their emails can be entertaining, what confidence do you really have in the numbers they quote ?

 

When I look at a torpedo I see..

 

1 chassis used twice

1 6 wheel bogie used 4x

2 different bodies on top of the chassis

1 half a torpedo, used twice

1 top piece

presumably inside is a motor and gears, dcc board, with pickups to the wheels.

 

its not got the weight, lighting, sound and gear towers of a diesel.

 

Its a simplistic “loco”, but its a complex wagon, even if it might not have hundreds of tiny pieces like some modern ones do.

 

The pack is more like 4 wagons, with 4x half Torpedo loads added in.. priced at c£40 per wagon, making the set price at £160,

if you think of it like that then you could suggest 2000 wagons in 4 packs gets you to 500 sets… £40 a wagon in that context is quite a high price, and KR is direct to customer giving full margin…  its also does not look like  a complex beast of many parts looking at it… so assembly time maybe lesser than say the recent HAAs.

 

If my approach/assumptions  are correct, then I doubt they are really squealing, and I doubt the costs are as big as suggested unless theyve gone full tonto and produced much higher quantities.

that said, wheres the Fells for those who ordered but didnt recieve them ?

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by adb968008

[gpplumy]

Steelworks layouts are fairly heavily modelled , much like my own. Surprisingly many don't seem to be on rm web but are well represented on Facebook under various groups. 

 

Myself and the AFR-S (Scunthorpe steelworks railtours )have been working with KR models on both the torpedo and the hunslet locomotive models. 

 

You can check out more of my own layout searching for Plumtree works, i have the components to build a blast furnace section of a layout just not the space atm. 

[tomparryharry]

On 07/03/2023 at 11:35, The Stationmaster said:

Problem with the TVR O4 and the 'Aberdare' is that they are not niche enough.  Mind you once manufacturers have moved through their emerging 'NER phase' we might be able to turn their eyes towards the real coalfield.

Well, I can understand the niche element. After all, the Western built 80 of the 26xx, whereas the Kings numbered 30....

 

 

[woodenhead]

On 07/03/2023 at 12:35, The Stationmaster said:

Problem with the TVR O4 and the 'Aberdare' is that they are not niche enough.  mond you once manufacturers have moved through their emerging 'NER phase' we might be able to turn their eyes towards the real coalfield.

Yes, some nice ex LYR locos 😃

[dave55uk]

I like the look of that loco - a Hunslet? Looks like a German 112 class loco to me.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by dave55uk
Found the correct loco class.

[gpplumy]

8 hours ago, dave55uk said:

I like the look of that loco - a Hunslet? Looks like a German 112 class loco to me.

 

 

Very much English. The design is owned by the steelworks its self (was)  and built for them by hunslet. Hence only the 11 for the site exist. They were designed as heavyweight locos to work with the torpedos and delivered just before as part of the Anchor project. The steelworks has always favoured center cabs due to the visibility and safety 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, dave55uk said:

I like the look of that loco - a Hunslet? Looks like a German 112 class loco to me.

 

 

I think you might mean a V100 - which at least has a similar overall arrangement but that's about all.

[Barry O]

25 minutes ago, gpplumy said:

Very much English. The design is owned by the steelworks its self (was)  and built for them by hunslet. Hence only the 11 for the site exist. They were designed as heavyweight locos to work with the torpedos and delivered just before as part of the Anchor project. The steelworks has always favoured center cabs due to the visibility and safety 

The design is owned by Hunslet.. check the original drawings. 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think you might mean a V100 - which at least has a similar overall arrangement but that's about all.

The 112s were a Reichsbahn member of the V100 family ( later class 202 : whereas the Bundesbahn V100s became classes 211 & 212 ) : -

 

 

..... all had a similar overall arrangement to the Scunthorpe locos but that's about all ......................................... and not easily confused with the class 112 electrics - the first of which started out as Reichsbahn class 212 : - 

 

 

....... confusing innit !!?! 🥴

 

( Photos Sonderhausen 10/9/90 & Berlin Zoologischergarten 4/10/98 )

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Wickham Green too

[ColinK]

The weathered torpedo wagon on display at Ally Pally was superb, tempted me to place an order.

[dave55uk]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. They're the ones I had in mind - 211 & 212.

Edited March 22, 2023 by dave55uk

[andythenorth]

Off-topic wibble, but Scunthorpe has the NSB Di 8s in use currently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSB_Di_8

[gpplumy]

On 23/03/2023 at 17:50, andythenorth said:

Off-topic wibble, but Scunthorpe has the NSB Di 8s in use currently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSB_Di_8

That we do although they never work the blast furnaces as they don't fit ! Lol

[BR Blue]

On 05/03/2023 at 17:41, adb968008 said:

 

i’m not even sure what £8 a day relates to ?

£8 a day for 31 days is £248

 

This email reminds me of the kind of guff  I see on “The Apprentice”.

 

Whilst i’m at it…

Fish Fingers £2 at my Tescos, £2.50 at Waitrose

Washing machine liquid.. £6 at Tescos

Chocolate cake.. well thats £16 at Tescos, but thats me pushing the boat out.

 

i’d unsubscribe but its entertaining,

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting. That is unintentionally hilarious. The £8 a day is so random. The endorsement by Jenny Kirk hardly inspires confidence either given what she thought of the very sub-par Fell. It is indeed all very Del boy.

Edited April 28, 2023 by BR Blue