RCH 1907 Private Owner Wagons - with added 2024 range.

[ChrisN]

On 29/06/2023 at 16:35, Compound2632 said:

There were plenty of builders building 16' 0" over headstocks 10 ton wagons in the 1890s.

 

I assume mostly 5 plank and single brakes though.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I assume mostly 5 plank and single brakes though.

 

Single sided brakes yes, but otherwise there are plenty of examples of 16' 0" over headstocks (15' 6" internal length) 10-ton wagons of 3' 8" to 4' 0" depth in the Midland PO wagon registers for the 1890s - mostly large batches for colliery companies. 4' 0" depth corresponds to seven 6⅞" planks but it wasn't at all unusual for wider planks to be used at this period, while 3' 8" is probably six planks. At this period, the number of planks is a bit of a red herring as a measure of the depth of the wagon, since plank widths could vary from under 7" up to 12", often enough on the same wagon.

[ChrisN]

I think Rapido need to be congratulated on this project, as not only is it moving the timescale back but there were thousands on PO wagon liveries and getting the ones that suit people must be a nightmare.  I model the Cambrian so I would need PO wagons from Mid and North Wales, plus collieries and coal factors from the Ruabon Wrexham area.  I also need single sided brakes but apparently either 5 or 7 planks.

 

Do any of the wagons on offer meet those criteria?  Sadly no, but why should they?  Does that mean that I will not be buying any?  No, of course not.  I think this initiative should be not only applauded but supported, so I shall see which collieries/ coal factors might have made it to Mid Wales without any photos being taken.  ( I shall talk to Mr Price my local coal merchant and see if he can help.)

[Covkid]

As far as I am concerned  Rapido can churn these out and I will buy them. The quintessential NCB coal wagon in Staffordshire in the 1950s and 1960s 

 

 

[WFPettigrew]

On 06/06/2023 at 16:26, Compound2632 said:

I've succumbed to temptation, curiosity, or some such, and been through my library looking up the prototypes of the liveries Rapido are producing

 

One footnote to add to Stephen's researches for those who may not be aware to help those after a pre-grouping example - any wagon listed as single sided brake would have been introduced before 1911.  

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

One footnote to add to Stephen's researches for those who may not be aware to help those after a pre-grouping example - any wagon listed as single sided brake would have been introduced before 1911.  

 

... and ought to have had a second set of brakes added by the mid-20s or so.

 

Equally, a wagon built with brakes on both sides need not have been built after 1911 - throughout the Edwardian period, many builders were anticipating the Board of Trade Rules, 1911, since those Rules were made under power given to the BoT by the Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act, 1900, itself the outcome of a Royal Commission that reported in that year. There had been a period of experiment by the railway companies, under the aegis of the Railway Clearing House, leading to the general adoption of independent eitherside brakes for mineral wagons by c. 1907.

[Buhar]

I'm sure that even in the late 1920s you could find brakes on one side only but with a linked lever on the other side.  The distinction being that brakes themselves and brake levers are different entities when considering the regulations as well as those cases where both sides were braked but were not linked.

 

Alan 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I'm sure that even in the late 1920s you could find brakes on one side only but with a linked lever on the other side.  The distinction being that brakes themselves and brake levers are different entities when considering the regulations as well as those cases where both sides were braked but were not linked.

 

Yes indeed; the BoT 1911 rules required the brake be capable of being applied from either side but did not require that it should act on all wheels. But this arrangement was usually found on railway company wagons and wagons without bottom doors generally. Many (but by no means all) PO mineral wagons had bottom doors; dropping 10 or 12 toms of coal onto a brake cross-shaft was evidently recognised as not being a good idea! 

[wagonman]

On 06/07/2023 at 11:09, Compound2632 said:

 

... and ought to have had a second set of brakes added by the mid-20s or so.

 

Equally, a wagon built with brakes on both sides need not have been built after 1911 - throughout the Edwardian period, many builders were anticipating the Board of Trade Rules, 1911, since those Rules were made under power given to the BoT by the Railway Employment (Prevention of Accidents) Act, 1900, itself the outcome of a Royal Commission that reported in that year. There had been a period of experiment by the railway companies, under the aegis of the Railway Clearing House, leading to the general adoption of independent eitherside brakes for mineral wagons by c. 1907.

 

While I totally agree with Stephen's assertion that some wagon builders pre-empted the rule change, others did not. Dunkerton Coal Factors had a batch of 12-ton wagons supplied by Chas Roberts in 1911 which definitely only had one set of brakes, in which state they lasted until well into the 1920s apparently.

 

[RapidoCorbs]

Another video, this one is all about the new private owner wagon range!

 

 

 

 

[Jon Harbour]

Assuming that these are the commercial success we all expect them to be, what are the chances of seeing future runs with the same companies but different running numbers? (Plus of course additional liveries).

 

I suspect these will be a gift that keeps giving.

[ChrisN]

6 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

Assuming that these are the commercial success we all expect them to be, what are the chances of seeing future runs with the same companies but different running numbers? (Plus of course additional liveries).

 

I suspect these will be a gift that keeps giving.

 

I think you are right, unless people become picky and wait for their particular company.  Collieries or Coal Factors in Wrexham or Ruabon are likely, but, Drake and Mount, coal merchants in Bracknell, are not.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

Drake and Mount, coal merchants in Bracknell, are not.

 

Ah well, POWSides to transfers for those, which I adapted for use on a couple of models of dumb-buffered wagons of theirs, seen in a film of a goods train at Bushey in 1897:

 

 

I still haven't done the brakes!

 

See:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-railway-traffic-on-the-lnwr-1897-online

 

at around 25 s.

[Compound2632]

As a general point, how about some POWSides-ready unlettered wagons in the commoner painting styles*, or even a deal to supply POWSides so they could offer ready-lettered wagons on request?

 

*plain black, and grey or red with black ironwork, covers at least 95%.

[ChrisN]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah well, POWSides to transfers for those, which I adapted for use on a couple of models of dumb-buffered wagons of theirs, seen in a film of a goods train at Bushey in 1897:

 

 

I still haven't done the brakes!

 

See:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-railway-traffic-on-the-lnwr-1897-online

 

at around 25 s.

 

Stephen,

Very interesting.  The POW sides Drake and Mount are 1887 RCH, I believe, 7 plank, 10 ton wagons with sprung buffers.  I assume you modified these on your D299 thread, which I must catch up on, not of course that I would want any Bracknell waggons in Mid-Wales............

 

Very interesting thought about either basic colours or supplying POW sides.  It could be a winner.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Very interesting.  The POW sides Drake and Mount are 1887 RCH, I believe, 7 plank, 10 ton wagons with sprung buffers.  I assume you modified these on your D299 thread, which I must catch up on, not of course that I would want any Bracknell waggons in Mid-Wales............

 

Those two dumb-buffer wagons are largely scratch-built but do use some Cambrian Kits Gloucester solebars, along with MJT etched brass axleguards and axlebox/spring castings. 

[Wickham Green too]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As a general point, how about some POWSides-ready unlettered wagons in the commoner painting styles ...

I'm sure Rapido would be amenable to POWSides - or anyone else - commissioning 'plain' coloured wagons ............ er - perhaps ??!?

[RapidoCorbs]

9 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

Assuming that these are the commercial success we all expect them to be, what are the chances of seeing future runs with the same companies but different running numbers? (Plus of course additional liveries).

 

I suspect these will be a gift that keeps giving.

 

Hopefully in the future we can introduce new fittings, body types etc. but as with all these things it depends how well the first ones sell, if people hold out for the 2nd run there is less likely to be one. Once these are released into the wild we should be able to make a better informed decision.

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

 

I think you are right, unless people become picky and wait for their particular company.  Collieries or Coal Factors in Wrexham or Ruabon are likely, but, Drake and Mount, coal merchants in Bracknell, are not.

 

I've got a little collection of PO wagons with liveries from places I've lived, even a couple of fairly small and moderately obscure locations. I suspect that quite a lot of people will buy a wagon just for that reason. So you might yet get Drake and Mount of Bracknell. 

[Wickham Green too]

13 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

... you might yet get Drake and Mount of Bracknell. 

Maybe an ExpoEM special !!?! 😁

[ChrisN]

I have a plan for my railway.  This year I build coaches, next year locos, the third year, waggons and then after that scenery.  The problem is that 'this year' is 2018, and I still have many coaches to build.  I have now gone on to scenic work.  I have some LNWR Genesis coaches as they were way down the list to build and it all helps to save time, so any PO wagons that will help are gratefully received.  

 

As my youngest said, 'You do not have that much time, dad.'  🙂

[AY Mod]

11 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

'You do not have that much time, dad.'  🙂

 

Tell him you've changed the will; just in case he holds the stopwatch.

[Covkid]

On 31/07/2023 at 00:18, Jon Harbour said:

Assuming that these are the commercial success we all expect them to be, what are the chances of seeing future runs with the same companies but different running numbers? (Plus of course additional liveries).

 

I suspect these will be a gift that keeps giving.

 

On 31/07/2023 at 10:15, RapidoCorbs said:

Hopefully in the future we can introduce new fittings, body types etc. but as with all these things it depends how well the first ones sell, if people hold out for the 2nd run there is less likely to be one. Once these are released into the wild we should be able to make a better informed decision.

 

Obviously commercially that makes the most sense. 

The problem for me as a (mostly) 1960-1975 modeller of BR and industrial stuff, the only "old" wagons I need are industrial use for my colliery railway hence my interest in the World Of Railways special of which I have ordered three St Andrews cross versions - hoping more are released.  Please don't forget us transition + industrial modellers who don't really do "pre 1948" private owners.   

Edited August 1, 2023 by Covkid
addition

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Please don't forget us transition + industrial modellers who don't really do "pre 1948" private owners.   

 

Strictly speaking, pre-c. 1958, if you're prepared to do a bit of defacing and take pot-luck on a P-prefix number!

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

  Please don't forget us transition + industrial modellers who don't really do "pre 1948" private owners.   

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Strictly speaking, pre-c. 1958, if you're prepared to do a bit of defacing and take pot-luck on a P-prefix number!

 

Well yes, but you still cannot really run green Sulzer 2s with private owner coal wagons, no matter how beaten up, grubby and "bare planked" !!