Fireman on the Footplate (as was back in time) or Stoker?

[Mallard60022]

Flying Scotsman is appearing in Devon & Cornwall on Sunday and on a local FB Page we have the usual, "My Sister in Law's  Uncle's Nephew said he was a 'STOKER' on this 'Train' (argggh). Don't care about that, however I have heard that term used before.

The Question: did any Regions Crew call themselves 'Stokers'?

I always thought a Stoker was a Seagoing term and Fireman was the Railway Term and used as a Grade in Service; (Passed Fireman etc.)

Thanks.

[Phil Bullock]

Only ever heard stoker used on locomotives in the UK in the context of a mechanical device…..

[Dagworth]

ASLE&F not ASLE&S

 

Andi

[LMS2968]

Stokers on ships, firemen on locos.

[The Johnster]

I think the term was used in the very early days; I sort of associate it with coke-fired engines.  

[Nick Holliday]

In 1849 an employee(?perhaps director) of the LNWR produced a book entitled “Stokers and Pokers” subtitled “or the London and North Western Railway - The Electric Telegraph - The Railway Clearing House”

However, a quick skim through its 170 pages failed to find the word actually in the text - all engine crews are described as driver and fireman.  But he does refer often to the various coking plants and similar establishments, which may have required stokers.

[rogerzilla]

German U-boats had diesel stokers until the 1950s.  Obviously they didn't actually stoke anything - it was just a carry-over job title for some engine room crew.

[Simon Lee]

To confuse things, the BR Humber paddle steamer ferry stokehold crews were known as firemen, not stokers.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

Thanks all. Some interesting info here as well.

I think it's a term used by the hundreds of people that have never actually worked on the Footplate of Loco's on the Railway, BUT like to tell their young relatives they worked on Mallard or Scotsman when those are in the news.

I have never heard anything other than Fireman as the Noun used.

Phil

[F-UnitMad]

46 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

German U-boats had diesel stokers until the 1950s. 

1950s? I didn't realise not all of them surrendered in 1945.... 😉

[Hibelroad]

Just thinking about it, Fireman ( or as James May would put it to be PC, Firemanwoman ) is now a job title for someone employed to put fires out. I suppose it goes to show how usage changes with time and why people might now think stoker is the correct term. 

[roythebus1]

No, firemen (who put fires out) are firefighters. :) Stokers on ships, firemen on locomotives, funnels on ships, chimneys on locomotives.

 

My late father-in-law was a stoker on Motor torpedo Boats in WW2. He said the diesel kept falling off the shovel.  It was indeed a term left over from an earlier era.

Edited April 28, 2023 by roythebus1

[Hibelroad]

Well they may be firefighters now but in my yoof  they were firemen. 

[Wickham Green too]

59 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

Just thinking about it, Fireman ( or as James May would put it to be PC, Firemanwoman ) is now a job title for someone employed to put fires out. ...

You sure it's not a fireperson ? ...... dealing with flammable - or is that inflammable things !

[30368]

2 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

German U-boats had diesel stokers until the 1950s. 

 

Do you mean WW2 U-boats?

Really? In the 1950's when WW2 ended in Europe in May 1945. I don't think the Bundeswehr had any subs in the 1950s but I could be wrong.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

[30368]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

1950s? I didn't realise not all of them surrendered in 1945....

 

Sorry I missed this on first scan....😁

[Wickham Green too]

Maybe they still had U-boat stokers in the '50s - but no U-boats for them to stoke !!?! 😮

[rogerzilla]

They revived the submarine fleet in the mid-50s and dropped the job title then.

[DCB]

Back in the 1920s kids aspired to be Engine Drivers, now they want to be Fireman.  Where has the ambition gone.      The only stokers I know of were the Berkley mechanical stokers on 3  X 9Fs and I think one Merchant Navy.

There was a kerfuffle around 1957 when it was decided firemen were over worked and  a limit was set on the amount one could shovel which was about the amount a Standard class 4   4-6-0 could burn, about half as much as a 9F could burn over the Mendips.  There was a proposal to employ stokers or assistant Firemen but the unions apparently objected, and it was dropped so firemen religiously ignored the ruling on the S&D  but obeyed it on the Bristolian limiting Kings to around 8 coaches without a pilot.   Nw the assistant fireman seems an essential for locos on the main line

[Steamport Southport]

I believe the difference between stokers and firemen was that firemen were in charge of the whole fire (and water, pressure, etc.) whilst stokers just shovelled coal (or coke) with an engineer in charge of everything else. Stoking was just a labourers job really and very low skilled.

 

One of the prize jobs at Edge Hill was being seconded to one of the big railway owned hotels such as The Adelphi or North Western to stoke the boilers. It usually meant they could disappear to the pub, returning occasionally to throw some more coal on!

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

German U-boats had diesel stokers until the 1950s.  Obviously they didn't actually stoke anything - it was just a carry-over job title for some engine room crew.

The Royal Navy had Stokers as a job title later than that -  even into the 1980s and not only on steam powered vessels.  because it too had Stokers on diesel/electric powered surface ships and submarines.   By then the job title hada lot more to f do with working and maintaining machinery than it did about regulating the flow of fuel.

 

The term 'stoker' does appear in some very early railway references but whether that was official or down to the foibles of the author I don't know.

[johnofwessex]

These days in the Merchant Navy Engine Room Ratings are Motormen, (Motor People of Gender?) even on the few remaining steam ships

[Steven B]

Just to add to the confusion, some Royal Navy stoker's were also firemen. As well as keeping the boiler fires burning they were also talked with extinguishing any fires burning in places they shouldn't!

[Clive Mortimore]

When I was an apprentice with the CEGB the blokes who looked after the boilers were called stokers. Never saw one with a shovel.

[62613]

On 28/04/2023 at 17:26, rogerzilla said:

German U-boats had diesel stokers until the 1950s.  Obviously they didn't actually stoke anything - it was just a carry-over job title for some engine room crew.

Actually, it was. In the RN at least, the Stokers were the watchkeepers, and the Artificers did the mechanical maintenance. Perhaps The Kriegsmarine had a similar system. In the Merch, "fireman" was a specific rate, describing those who tended the boilers.