EFE Rail - Winter 2023 Announcements inc. Southern 'Booster'

[ColinB]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The unmentioned fact that you have to buy six boxes of cornflakes to collect the tokens to get them at that price?  

On the other hand of course what it is really about is economics - things like tooling and assembly complexities, or not, and many other things.

Well I don't want to dwell on this, but when I asked the question those were the things that were on my mind. New model so new tooling, has a pantograph so increases complexity, I doubt being Bachmann it will be a cheap moulded one, has lights. I will leave it at that. Either way it looks good value for money. 

[Southernman46]

From Odhams 1947 "Railways, Ships and Aeroplanes Illustrated"

 

[JJC]

Can I ask about the red buffer beams on the BR blue version of 20001 please? The excellent issue of 'Southern Way' states it was out shopped in May '67 with BR Blue buffer beams, photos from this time look to reflect this (https://esngblog.com/2023/09/04/more-southern-co-cos/#jp-carousel-23085). They were certainly blue in '68 (as shown in Robert Carroll's wonderful image below) and at the end of it's life when in the centre road at Brighton (https://esngblog.com/2023/09/04/more-southern-co-cos/#jp-carousel-23084). The blog states the model represent the prototype between '68 and withdrawal but they look to be blue throughout this time, when did the red buffer beam feature please?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/21175898800/in/photolist-2jwQ2i5-ygf1Xs-VqjJx4-3JuGt2-aNHsvD-CCVgP-i9dt6i-ayhZdA-ayi24U-ayi1bA-i9dvmR-i9d4oF-ghbjL

[Steven B]

20 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Shame the two-tone grey with "Southern Electric" flash never left the works !

 

That shouldn't stop it being made - it'd be perfect for all the models that never leave the display case!

 

SB.

[phil-b259]

15 hours ago, ColinB said:

I assume it was used in the coal mines in Kent where the third rail was dangerous in marshalling yards. I imagine it was replaced by the class 71 that Hornby also modelled. Interestingly the Hornby model is a really good model with all the modern features like both bogies driven and lighting but is also sold at a reasonable price.

The furthest electrification went in Kent under SR tenure was:-

 

Maidstone West

 

Gillingham (via Strood and Gravesend - the route between Swanley and Rochester didn’t get 3rd rail till the BR Kent Coast scheme came along in late 50s)

 

Maidstone East

 

Sevenoaks (via Swanley and via Orpington)

 

IIRC advanced planning was underway for the Hastings line (including the Bexhill West branch) but the breakout of WW2 caused an immediate halt.

 

As such although it’s possible it was envisaged that the SRs electric locos might eventually be used in Kent, in practice they remained as central division locos (where there was the greatest amount of 3rd rail) with use on Newhaven boat trains during summer months being common in the post war era.

Edited November 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[ColinB]

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

The furthest electrification went in Kent under SR tenure was:-

 

Maidstone West

 

Gillingham (via Strood and Gravesend - the route between Swanley and Rochester didn’t get 3rd rail till the BR Kent Coast scheme came along in late 50s)

 

Maidstone East

 

Sevenoaks (via Swanley and via Orpington)

 

IIRC advanced planning was underway for the Hastings line (including the Bexhill West branch) but the breakout of WW2 caused an immediate halt.

 

As such although it’s possible it was envisaged that the SRs electric locos might eventually be used in Kent, in practice they remained as central division locos (where there was the greatest amount of 3rd rail) with use on Newhaven boat trains during summer months being common in the post war era.

So where did they use the pantograph? I know that the class 71 was used for that purpose as it is written on the box.

[Fair Oak Junction]

20 minutes ago, ColinB said:

So where did they use the pantograph? I know that the class 71 was used for that purpose as it is written on the box.

 

From Wikipedia: "A cross-arm pantograph was fitted to each of the three locomotives to allow them to work from overhead lines erected in some yards, (notably Hither Green marshalling yard, South East London) where it was deemed too dangerous to have 3rd rail, with staff constantly at track level, particularly in war-time blackout. The pantograph was recessed into a cut-out on the roof when not in use, to keep within the loading gauge."

Edited November 2, 2023 by Obsidian Quarry

[spamcan61]

8 minutes ago, ColinB said:

So where did they use the pantograph? I know that the class 71 was used for that purpose as it is written on the box.

We discussed the locations of the Southern's OHL in this 'ere thread:-

 

 

[Halvarras]

21 hours ago, maico said:

 

FYE would be another variation batch 2 could offer

 

I've seen no evidence that either of these locos ran in green with small yellow panels (quite possible as some Class 33s also skipped this livery so common elsewhere, a symptom of the SR's general tardiness with the yellow paint in the early-mid 1960s) which would make 20002 in green full yellow blue 20001's natural partner.

 

18 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

As stated above it was two time grey the area between the body side white lines was a darker grey. 
 

It never left Ashford in this livery. 

 

D0280 'Falcon' never left Loughborough in lime green with small yellow panels either but we got a model of that nonetheless. Just sayin'.........😜!

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, ColinB said:

So where did they use the pantograph? I know that the class 71 was used for that purpose as it is written on the box.

You need to remember that the locos were to an extent ‘future proofed’ - had world events  progressed differently then electrification into the outer reaches of Kent (including the coalfield)  would have happened much earlier and that would have included overhead wires at places BR later installed them.

 

However at time of construction the amount of wiring installed was tiny - what existed was more of a proof of concept which would be rolled out later when peace returned.

 

IIRC wiring was installed at Norwood junction yard and the small goods yard at Balcombe station to test the concept.

Edited November 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[C126]

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by C126
Irrelevance/cited earlier.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

 

From Wikipedia: "A cross-arm pantograph was fitted to each of the three locomotives to allow them to work from overhead lines erected in some yards, (notably Hither Green marshalling yard, South East London) where it was deemed too dangerous to have 3rd rail, with staff constantly at track level, particularly in war-time blackout. The pantograph was recessed into a cut-out on the roof when not in use, to keep within the loading gauge."

At time of construction the amount of electrification in Kent was small and as such all goods trains serving yards like Hither Green would have been steam hauled making the provision of overhead wiring pointless.

 

By contrast the Central Division lines all along the south coast and up to London well equipped with conductor rail, so there was far more potential for electrically hauled freight - hence it would be for yards like Norwood that Pantographs would have been provided.

 

Obviously after BRs Kent Coast  electrification scheme then electrically hauled freights into Hither Green would be possible - so it got overhead wires, but officially that was for the BR class 71s locos,not the Southern Railway locomotives.

Edited November 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[Wickham Green too]

Norwood to Chichester was a regular operation for the 'Hornbys' - so presumably there was a trolley wire installation at the latter too.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, ColinB said:

So where did they use the pantograph?

 

... under the  overhead wires!

[stovepipe]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Norwood to Chichester was a regular operation for the 'Hornbys' - so presumably there was a trolley wire installation at the latter too.

 

I haven't seen any evidence that there was wiring at Chichester Yard. There was one or possibly two 3rd rail electrified roads, and four or five standard roads. Presumably the yard pilot made up the Norwood train and put it onto the electrified road in time for departure.

 

 

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

ISTR they would be used to pull the Royal special to Tattenham Corner on Derby day.

[Wickham Green too]

28 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

... Presumably the yard pilot made up the Norwood train and put it onto the electrified road in time for departure.

 ... though that doesn't sound like a very efficient use of siding space or motive power !

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 ... though that doesn't sound like a very efficient use of siding space or motive power !

 

Not to modern ears maybe - but in reality that arrangement is no different from any other reasonably busy goods yard in either the steam only 1920s or indeed the dieseled 1970s which would have a yard pilot to move the wagons round and make up a train - not the train loco!

 

Having the train engine perform shunting only makes sense where there is (1) time in the schedule to do it before the loco is needed somewhere else and (2) the nature of the yard is suitable (remember yard pilots tended to be short wheelbase locos) and (3) It is perhaps the only train which is going to visit that yard that day.

 

Also you need to remember that today there is rarely any true shunting required (though sometimes a train may need to be split into two portions if the loading /unloading facility is too small) - its usually just a case of propelling / pulling the train through some sort of loading / unloading area and running the loco round before departure.

[RFS]

42 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

ISTR they would be used to pull the Royal special to Tattenham Corner on Derby day.

 

Indeed they did and here's one such photo from the Mike Morant website. No 4-disk headcode by this time - just 08 and a couple of lamps. -

[Wickham Green too]

9 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Not to modern ears maybe - but in reality that arrangement is no different from any other reasonably busy goods yard in either the steam only 1920s or indeed the dieseled 1970s which would have a yard pilot to move the wagons round and make up a train...

BUT the need to move the made-up train from a nice safe siding where the staff are clear of electrical dangers to another road where the "Hornby" can pick it up IS somewhat different ...... and hardly in the spirit of nice efficient electrification ! 

[PrestburyJack]

Hi,

 

How did classes 71, 73 & 74 overcome "gapping" in the 3rd rail? Presumably they didn't have a "Booster" otherwise all 3rd rail locomotives would be called "Boosters".

 

Thank you 

Edited November 2, 2023 by PrestburyJack
Clarify

[phil-b259]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

BUT the need to move the made-up train from a nice safe siding where the staff are clear of electrical dangers to another road where the "Hornby" can pick it up IS somewhat different ...... and hardly in the spirit of nice efficient electrification ! 

 

I think we need to remember the constraints in place at the time and indeed the experimental nature of the locos.

 

Money and materials were tight so its quite logical that their would not be a sudden push to go round and wire up every yard just for the sake of 2/3 locos!

 

Even when BR came forward the the Kent Coast scheme over a decade after the first loco appeared they did not go round wiring or installing conductor rails in every single yard - just the most significant ones.

 

And as we know it didn't take long for a better solution (in the form of the class 73 electro diesel) to turn up rendering the whole need to electrify yards superfluous anyway.

[phil-b259]

25 minutes ago, PrestburyJack said:

How did classes 71, 73 & 74 overcome "gapping" in the 3rd rail?

 

Thank you 

 

The 73s didn't need to overcome it per say - because they had a diesel engine to provide power and would regularly use that as the power source where complex trackwork was likely to result in gaping (ordinarily if a gap was being approached at speed the driver would simply stop accelerating and the locos momentum would simply let it coast across the gap). 

 

The 74s were also electro-diesels so again had a back up power source for use in places where gapping might be an issue.

 

IIRC the 71s were fitted with (updated) booster technology as per the Southern Railway built locos being offered by EFE.

Edited November 2, 2023 by phil-b259

[number6]

2 hours ago, stovepipe said:

 

I haven't seen any evidence that there was wiring at Chichester Yard. There was one or possibly two 3rd rail electrified roads, and four or five standard roads. 

 

Same was true in Lewes yard - there were short sections of 3rd rail in one road and a headshunt - I believe added during WW2 to make use of the locos a bit more flexible. I have always wondered if a Booster could have got all the way around the goods avoiding lines without hitting the juice. Never seen any evidence that they did. Southbound freights hauled by them that called at Lewes East yard were backed in after running through the station. 

 

Must have meant that installing the overhead trolley wire in situations like Chichester, Newhaven, Three Bridges, Norwood Yard etc. was more trouble [or cost] than it was worth. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by number6
typo

[Southernman46]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Gillingham (via Strood and Gravesend - the route between Swanley and Rochester didn’t get 3rd rail till the BR Kent Coast scheme came along in late 50s)

It was electrified in 1939 along with the rest of the Maidstone & Gillingham scheme with substations at Tweed Hill, Fawkham Junction, Meopham & Lower Bush. The KC mainline service were still steam operated over this section until 1961.

 

Tweed Hill substation was strafed during WW2 and the bullet holes were still present in the pallisade fencing around the substation on my last visit.