Are current RTR models too good for the average modeller?

[Legend]

My hope for 3D printing is that it reduces minimum order quantities for models to the extent that a run of 50 or so becomes viable . In that way you might see some lesser classes of loco or unit available for sale eg a Swindon 126  where I doubt there would ever be a demand to justify injection molding / tooling , but 3D who knows .  It probably makes the hobby much more of a cottage industry rather than being big boys that can afford suites of tooling. Also various different steam locos , coaches could then become economic .  For me , I think the level of detailing has perhaps gone too far . I prefer robustness and good running to infinite detail .  I cant see anyone improving on the 37 or 47 we have, so I suspect we have probably peaked in detail , but as I said if we now have the ability to make many more limited volume models , that would be good .

 

I tend to view models by themselves , so whether its pictured on a bare baseboard or something like Pendon doesn't really bother me 

[jjb1970]

Dave Jones was one of those people who was full of ideas, not all of them good. In fairness, when things worked he could oversee a great looking model (such as the Western) but he had some howlers and seemed to get so carried away with ideas he forgot to pay attention to making them work and how they were implemented. The 22 was a very nice looking model apart from the silly valances.

[The Johnster]

I get the impression that he was certainly full of something, but there is little wrong with thinking outside the box and challenging conventional wisdom.  It's a high risk strategy, though, and failure-prone.  In his case, it's fair to say I think that he set out with the idea that the big manufacturers were not progressing and that he could do  better; whether this was arrogance or progressive is moot, but to be fair to him he did try... 

 

The big manufacturers did progress, eventually and assisted by moving production to China, and there are new kids on the block who are pushing standards further.  This may not be to everybody's liking, but I'd say it is good for the hobby in general and very useful to bodgers like me!  I reckon I handle my locos and stock fairly 'normally', and as the fy is based on 'crane shunting' as we used to call it, fairly frequently, and find most of my current-tooled models (let's define that as 'tooled in the 21st century) to be adequately robust, thought there are some exceptions.  Plastic is incredibly versatile and cheap to use in manufacturing processes, but a well-made metal model with soldered on discrete detail will always look indestructable in comparison.  But these are not economically viable to produce except as kits and are at the edge of my comfort zone, and rarely prove superior in detail to plastic RTR.

 

As an example, my various brass kit coaches.  Time was I'd have thought of these as cutting edge, and I have some as the only way to obtain models of some prototypes without resorting to a form of scratch-building that is beyond my capability.  They're ok, but took time to build and I find the brass to be a bit thin, resulting in some components being flimsy.  I've had trouble with Comet bogies, fold-up brass inside frames and whitemetal cosmetic outers; these distort if you look hard at them and rely on solder filleting for strength, which doesn't sound like sound structural engineering to me, but what do I know?  The cosmetic outers need a lot of prep work and sit too wide; I'm pretty certain that one should not be able to see the axleboxes when one is viewing an A44 vertically from above.  I've replaced them with RTR platic bogies, which are superior in running and detail anyway.  Underframe trusses are particulary flimsy, and, worse, look it!  Door handles and grab rails are pretty robust, though.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

My hope for 3D printing is that it reduces minimum order quantities for models to the extent that a run of 50 or so becomes viable . In that way you might see some lesser classes of loco or unit available for sale eg a Swindon 126  where I doubt there would ever be a demand to justify injection molding / tooling , but 3D who knows .  It probably makes the hobby much more of a cottage industry rather than being big boys that can afford suites of tooling. Also various different steam locos , coaches could then become economic . 

 

Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish, who markets through Shapeways, will provide you with 3D printed bodyshells for all vehicles of Class 126, and many other prototypes that have not (yet) made the RTR production cut.  They are not cheap if you compare them even with the top-of-the-range current production RTR (and Shapeways marketing methods don't help), and are of course incomplete scratch aids.  I haven't costed the idea, but completing a six-car 126 train with a buffet car using Bachmann 117 chassis, interiors, couplings, lighting, &c, then painting and obtaining transfers, is going to cost a lot more than a pair of Bachmann 116s.  How badly do you want a 126? 

 

3D has so far failed to live up to it's initial promise in general, and IMHO there are various reasons for this.  I clearly recall being told that 3D would enable me to design and produce my own items to my own specifications to a high standard on a domestic machine that would cost about twice what I was paying then for a printer/scanner/copier.  The way small items were to be produced and marketed was to change irrevocably; one would purchase the plan, or even make your own plan, and print it up in whatever material was suitable.  Never happened; why didn't it happen?

 

1) Domestic machines are still a good bit pricier than PSCs.

2) The quality is abysmal unless one is prepared to spend a lot more money than I would ever have to spare on a printer.  I an not interested in crude T-scale boats.

3) Obviously, people who buy such printers cannot possibly justify the outlay for thier own purposes and it is almost instinctive that they will recoup some of their outlay by making their prints available on a small business basis. 

4) They can't do this at competitive (with RTR/RTP) pricing levels, because the economies of (even small) scale production are not available to them.

5) And the time needed to produce a single item is excessive, and one-off production is inefficient in terms of distribution.  Setting the printer up, test printing, adjusting, final print, cleaning the machine ready for the next print, all take excessive amounts of time, and if the machine is in a domestic situation noise, hot plastic odours, and electricity bills have to be considered.  It's faffy.

 

Simon D makes some very useful stuff, so why don't we see more of it?  Where else are you gonna go for your Rye & Camber stuff, or Metropolitan, or Rhymney Railway saloon coaches?  Cost is the main barrier, but the Swindon Cross-Country Class 120 constantly scores high in the wishlist polls, and if I wanted one and could afford it I'd be buying Simon's 120 coaches if only to provoke a manufacturer into releasing them RTR, but they seem as rare as rocking horse doodoo on layouts!  There are plenty of folk around who can afford full Midland Pullman sets, or whole fleets of Accurascale Deltics, so it can't just be price!  Is it perhaps that those as can afford it would prefer a finished model?

 

Where 3D has been very successful and highly competitive is in the small-scale industrial production of smaller but finely detailed items, such as Modelu's lamps, accessories, and figures.  It is my contention that firms like this are benefitting from doing their own marketing and avoiding the morass of problems that seem to be part and parcel of post-Brexit Shapeways.  SW started off with what seemed noble, even hippie/socialist, ideals, a community of small-is-beautiful farmers' market-type creatives coming together to share costs and raise awareness (advertise and market) their designs and products to the benefit of all, local production on a global scale.  One gets the impression that it's all gone wrong and that the organisation is instrumental in preventing those ideals ever being realised, not that I'm saying this is or was ever their intention, but obviously things haven't gone quite according to plan!

[Colin_McLeod]

Back in the early days, when most layouts had little or no scenery  it could have been said that the rtr locos and rolling stock were "too good".

 

Perhaps we have just come full circle!

 

[e30ftw]

trying not to go to far off topic, but....

 

Could we see a resurgence in the cottage industry, with resin 3d printing a range of budget models could be created so all popular diesels could be designed, and use a common co-co motor or common bo-bo set up with just the chassis being different. so a class 25 and 20 could share the same components in the drive train but different 3d printed bogie frame sides and drive shaft/wheel base. sub classes would be easy and require no tooling just a different 3d file. It wouldn't be a full fat model competitor but maybe a railroad type niche, ship it in kit form and the modeler has to assemble and paint it themselves. Could open up the hobby for people put of by the price of modern models.

 

You could go way out there and design by comity or a co op or allow it to be open sourced so you get the largest amount of input from experts or people that can have easy access to the prototype. Maybe a go fund me collective to hire a 3d artist to design your chosen loco, with design changes on the fly to get the best results.

 

like him or not sams trains has an interesting video of him creating a 3d steam loco

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by e30ftw

[John M Upton]

The 1980's into the 1990's were a bit of a slump for RTR in the UK simply because we were decades behind many other markets.  US outline models had flywheel drive can motors for many years that even now still work better than UK RTR made subsequently.

 

Lima did come out with some nice if basic models, the 47 and 73 were the better ones and provided fertile ground for people to detail up uysing Craftsman Detailing Kits, Hurst parts, Flushglaze windows and all finished off with a coat of Railmatch (Notable that Craftsman Detailing Kits are long extinct, Hurst seems to have disappeared and I have not seen new packs of Flushglaze windows for years now).

 

Whilst in the US you could buy a cheap reliable shunter/switcher that not only looked like what it was supposed to but ran well, Hornby and Lima were still producing comedy 08's which were tired tooling and capable of a minimum speed of about a hundred miles an hour, no wonder everyone grabbed a Bachmann 08 when they first appeared!!  Even more embarrassing is that until relatively recently, Hornby were still churning out the old Triang era 08 with its outside motion and moulded paint guide lines, just charging a ridiculous amount for them!!

 

Social Media is playing a big part in modelling these days, it's all posts about 'Oooh, nice shiny new model, I must post a unboxing video' which three weeks later is followed by them promptly selling it again when their pocket money has run out and the next big shiny new model is coming but they must have it so they can make another unboxing video for their legions of brain dead sheep 'followers'.

 

Real modellers just get on with it, whether it being buying second hand and repainting/detailing old models or just building and running what they want to build.   There is an elite clique at the moment that just buys all the new stuff for show, all mouth and trousers as an old friend of mines Mum used to say, and then gets all upset when Bachmann haven't announced a complete retool of a Class 37 for at least six weeks, these being the ones who see anything older than eighteen months as old and outdated tooling - they never experienced the 1980's into the 1990's when old tooling was all we had and we had to make do!!

[Legend]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish, who markets through Shapeways, will provide you with 3D printed bodyshells for all vehicles of Class 126, and many other prototypes that have not (yet) made the RTR production cut.  They are not cheap if you compare them even with the top-of-the-range current production RTR (and Shapeways marketing methods don't help), and are of course incomplete scratch aids.  I haven't costed the idea, but completing a six-car 126 train with a buffet car using Bachmann 117 chassis, interiors, couplings, lighting, &c, then painting and obtaining transfers, is going to cost a lot more than a pair of Bachmann 116s.  How badly do you want a 126? 

 

 

Thanks for that Johnster. I didn't know that 3D printed 126 already existed . You are correct , its pretty expensive and whys it in $  , but not ruling it out .  At the moment I'm going down the Silver Fox route . Again with idea of using the Lima 117 motor chassis .  But it kind of proves the point , already 3d Printing is enabling models of obscure prototypes

[Jol Wilkinson]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish, who markets through Shapeways, will provide you with 3D printed bodyshells for all vehicles of Class 126, and many other prototypes that have not (yet) made the RTR production cut.  They are not cheap if you compare them even with the top-of-the-range current production RTR (and Shapeways marketing methods don't help), and are of course incomplete scratch aids.  I haven't costed the idea, but completing a six-car 126 train with a buffet car using Bachmann 117 chassis, interiors, couplings, lighting, &c, then painting and obtaining transfers, is going to cost a lot more than a pair of Bachmann 116s.  How badly do you want a 126? 

 

3D has so far failed to live up to it's initial promise in general, and IMHO there are various reasons for this.  I clearly recall being told that 3D would enable me to design and produce my own items to my own specifications to a high standard on a domestic machine that would cost about twice what I was paying then for a printer/scanner/copier.  The way small items were to be produced and marketed was to change irrevocably; one would purchase the plan, or even make your own plan, and print it up in whatever material was suitable.  Never happened; why didn't it happen?

 

1) Domestic machines are still a good bit pricier than PSCs.

2) The quality is abysmal unless one is prepared to spend a lot more money than I would ever have to spare on a printer.  I an not interested in crude T-scale boats.

3) Obviously, people who buy such printers cannot possibly justify the outlay for thier own purposes and it is almost instinctive that they will recoup some of their outlay by making their prints available on a small business basis. 

4) They can't do this at competitive (with RTR/RTP) pricing levels, because the economies of (even small) scale production are not available to them.

5) And the time needed to produce a single item is excessive, and one-off production is inefficient in terms of distribution.  Setting the printer up, test printing, adjusting, final print, cleaning the machine ready for the next print, all take excessive amounts of time, and if the machine is in a domestic situation noise, hot plastic odours, and electricity bills have to be considered.  It's faffy.

 

Simon D makes some very useful stuff, so why don't we see more of it?  Where else are you gonna go for your Rye & Camber stuff, or Metropolitan, or Rhymney Railway saloon coaches?  Cost is the main barrier, but the Swindon Cross-Country Class 120 constantly scores high in the wishlist polls, and if I wanted one and could afford it I'd be buying Simon's 120 coaches if only to provoke a manufacturer into releasing them RTR, but they seem as rare as rocking horse doodoo on layouts!  There are plenty of folk around who can afford full Midland Pullman sets, or whole fleets of Accurascale Deltics, so it can't just be price!  Is it perhaps that those as can afford it would prefer a finished model?

 

Where 3D has been very successful and highly competitive is in the small-scale industrial production of smaller but finely detailed items, such as Modelu's lamps, accessories, and figures.  It is my contention that firms like this are benefitting from doing their own marketing and avoiding the morass of problems that seem to be part and parcel of post-Brexit Shapeways.  SW started off with what seemed noble, even hippie/socialist, ideals, a community of small-is-beautiful farmers' market-type creatives coming together to share costs and raise awareness (advertise and market) their designs and products to the benefit of all, local production on a global scale.  One gets the impression that it's all gone wrong and that the organisation is instrumental in preventing those ideals ever being realised, not that I'm saying this is or was ever their intention, but obviously things haven't gone quite according to plan!

My only, albeit limited, experience of Shapeway products is that they have been poorly designed/printed and excessively expensive compared with others using 3D printing are producing.

[The Johnster]

Simon's look to be pretty detailed and accurate, but I agree that quality is very variable.  Shapeways don't produce anything, they are simply a method by which 3D producers collectively market and advertise their products, so you are inevitably going to get all sorts flogging stuff through it.  Many of SW's producers are very small cottage industry-type outfits and SW enables them to access a much wider market in return for a cut of anything they sell, so at no up-front cost; at least, that was apparently the original intention, though whether or not it has been particularly successful is moot.

 

Quite a lot of what is on offer is of limited value to anyone with scale pretensions, and much is expensive duplication of items available from RTR suppliers which are better quality and cheaper once you factor in the work needed to complete the model.  If you want a Flying Scotsman, Hornby do several at different price levels that are ready and nicely finished, who would bother with the 3D bodyshells on offer?  But there is stuff that you won't find anywhere else; obscure light railway stock, early locomotives (not sure these can be motorised), TTTE, road vehicles, coaching stock not provided by RTR, buildings components.  An area I think could be exploited but hasn't been is signalling, but no doubt someone will have a go, a sort of plastic Derek Mundy.

 

But it's time-consuming; the search engine cannot be set to exclude rubbish models, railway is railway, all of it (you can drill down to scales, UK, steam/diesel, but it's clunky).  It means you have to wade through a lot of dross and stuff that is not within your interest frame to find anything that might be of use to you.  There's a good bit of stuff that sucks your time by looking good at first glance, then turning out not to cut your mustard under closer examination.  Good time killing for rainy Sunday afternoons...

Edited November 15, 2023 by The Johnster

[MarkSG]

15 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

But it's time-consuming; the search engine cannot be set to exclude rubbish models, railway is railway, all of it (you can drill down to scales, UK, steam/diesel, but it's clunky).  It means you have to wade through a lot of dross and stuff that is not within your interest frame to find anything that might be of use to you.  There's a good bit of stuff that sucks your time by looking good at first glance, then turning out not to cut your mustard under closer examination.  Good time killing for rainy Sunday afternoons...

 

Yes, one of the biggest weaknesses of the Shapeways marketplace is the absence of customer reviews and ratings. While these can be gamed and distorted (as Amazon and Tripadvisor have found), they can be very useful to consumers. It's one of the key metrics I use when making purchases from eBay, for example. While there's no meaningful way to rate an individual second-hand product, the seller ratings are invaluable. I won't buy from a seller which has a history of poor reviews and ratings, and it would be nice to have the same option on Shapeways.

[MJI]

On 14/11/2023 at 19:12, The Johnster said:

 

Simon Dawson, Rue d'Etropal of this very parish, who markets through Shapeways, will provide you with 3D printed bodyshells for all vehicles of Class 126, and many other prototypes that have not (yet) made the RTR production cut.  They are not cheap if you compare them even with the top-of-the-range current production RTR (and Shapeways marketing methods don't help), and are of course incomplete scratch aids.  I haven't costed the idea, but completing a six-car 126 train with a buffet car using Bachmann 117 chassis, interiors, couplings, lighting, &c, then painting and obtaining transfers, is going to cost a lot more than a pair of Bachmann 116s.  How badly do you want a 126? 

 

 

I am producing a 6 car set for WR usage using a craft cutter for sides, laminating using scratch techniques, and Triang Hornby chassis and roofs.

 

Underframes bits are a pain and stopping the completion of the first 3 vehicles.

 

Using a pair of Lowriders, one in each IDBMSL..

 

My 120 is at glazing stage.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 14/11/2023 at 19:12, The Johnster said:

Shapeways.  SW started off with what seemed noble, even hippie/socialist, ideals, a community of small-is-beautiful farmers' market-type creatives coming together to share costs and raise awareness (advertise and market) their designs and products to the benefit of all, local production on a global scale.  One gets the impression that it's all gone wrong and that the organisation is instrumental in preventing those ideals ever being realised, not that I'm saying this is or was ever their intention, but obviously things haven't gone quite according to plan!

You have so got to read PJ O'Rourke's 'The Baby Boom'; paying particular attention to Chapter 16 'Real Life' where he correctly identifies us as Antinomians.

[PMP]

On 14/11/2023 at 02:33, Jeff Smith said:

Apologies for misquoting modellers for enthusiasts - but the key word was 'average'.  I'm also not aware of when that wording was dropped.....

 

On 14/11/2023 at 11:36, Legend said:

 

I think its changed again , something to do with "heart of the hobby" 

The strapline has changed several times over the years but the average word dropped in 94, so I do wonder why it regularly comes up 29 years later!

It also seems odd that RM has been criticised for having used it when other retail magazines, Hornby Mag, BRM, Model Rail, Model Railroader, Continental Modeller etc., all cover similar themes, sometimes featuring the same layouts. They too are addressing the 'average' market readership, so their readers and content must be average too yet no critique of their approaches.

[MarkSG]

17 minutes ago, PMP said:

The strapline has changed several times over the years but the average word dropped in 94, so I do wonder why it regularly comes up 29 years later!

 

Because most of us have been around for more than 29 years!

[PMP]

7 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

Because most of us have been around for more than 29 years!

Quite, but it seems those rolling out the trope can’t have been paying a great deal of attention to the publication they’re commenting on for those 29 years. 🙂

Edited November 16, 2023 by PMP

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, PMP said:

those rolling out the trope can’t have been paying a great deal of attention to the publication they’re commenting on for those 29 years

When in 2022 I purchased my first RM since the early 1970s (because a friend had a layout featured) I certainly didn't notice that 'in the hobb of the hearty' bit.What does it mean? Supplying a stent, replacement valve(s), coronary artery bypass(es)?

[Jeff Smith]

Well, when I started the thread I expected most respondents to be discussing the level of detail on models but it seem that the word 'average' has ruffled a few feathers.  There seems to be some defensiveness about being thought of as average.  As mentioned above, the bell curve puts most of us generally in the middle.  Many of us drift to one side or the other on some projects, even both sides, but the majority are average in a lot of what they do.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jeff Smith

[woodenhead]

It's funny how the word average can affect people.

 

How long is the wait? About average - not a contentious answer and won't ruffle any feathers.

How big is your waist? Average - no-one is going to be upset with that.

What is your cholesterol level? Average - again, nothing to get upset about.

How good is your modelling? Average most people will reply, but quietly hoping you'll say that they are not and you are quite impressed with their modelling.

How big is your John Thomas?  Average? - What! How very dare you, it's not average and I've had plenty of compliments about it's size.

 

🤣

[MarkSG]

11 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Well, when I started the thread I expected most respondents to be discussing the level of detail on models but it seem that the word 'average' has ruffled a few feathers.  There seems to be some defensiveness about being thought of as average.  As mentioned above, the bell curve puts most of us generally in the middle.  Many of us drift to one side or the other on some projects, even both sides, but the majority are average in a lot of what they do.

 

Although anyone with any statistical knowledge will be familiar with a normal distribution (aka a bell curve), the reality is that most real life scenarios don't follow a normal distribution. And that affects the concept of the average. Because - as, again, anyone with any statistical knowledge will be aware - there are three different averages: the mean, the mode and the median. In a normal distribution, all three of those will be the same. But in any other distribution, they won't. So you need to choose which one you are referring to when you talk about the average.

 

In the case of RM's long-gone strapline, I think it's pretty obvious that what they meant by "average" was the mode, or typical, skill set among modellers. Which is clearly a good place to pitch a magazine, because that's where you'll have the largest potential readership. And it seems to have worked. Of all the magazines I can remember from my early days in the hobby, RM is the only one still around (and, for that matter, the one I read at the time, because I, too, was an average, or typical, modeller rather than having the esoteric skillsets addressed by some of the other mags). But these days, "average" tends to be interpreted more often as meaning the median or mean, which is a much less useful metric in this context. So the idea of the "average modeller" is also probably less helpful than it once was. "Typical modeller" would probably be a better way of expressing it.

[PMP]

11 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Well, when I started the thread I expected most respondents to be discussing the level of detail on models but it seem that the word 'average' has ruffled a few feathers.  There seems to be some defensiveness about being thought of as average.  As mentioned above, the bell curve puts most of us generally in the middle.  Many of us drift to one side or the other on some projects, even both sides, but the majority are average in a lot of what they do.

Well your list of items that make a model or layout ‘average’ means that even an S4/2FS/S7 modeller is average. You mention a bell curve but provide no statistical model to work from. So without ‘qualification’ in a form that most people can relate to, your ‘average’ discussion point is perhaps unclear. 

 

The levels of detail has been discussed many times here and in almost every item new release thread. Manufacturers have responded, and continue to do so, to the market wanting more details and more functionality. Simples.

[AY Mod]

14 hours ago, PMP said:

Quite, but it seems those rolling out the trope can’t have been paying a great deal of attention to the publication they’re commenting on for those 29 years. 🙂

 

P,p,p,p pick up a penguin.

For mash get Smash.

Central heating for kids.

 

Memorable slogans are for life.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

P,p,p,p pick up a penguin.

For mash get Smash.

Central heating for kids.

 

Memorable slogans are for life.

 

This is the age of the train ?

[PMP]

22 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Although anyone with any statistical knowledge will be familiar with a normal distribution (aka a bell curve), the reality is that most real life scenarios don't follow a normal distribution. And that affects the concept of the average. Because - as, again, anyone with any statistical knowledge will be aware - there are three different averages: the mean, the mode and the median. In a normal distribution, all three of those will be the same. But in any other distribution, they won't. So you need to choose which one you are referring to when you talk about the average.

 

In the case of RM's long-gone strapline, I think it's pretty obvious that what they meant by "average" was the mode, or typical, skill set among modellers. Which is clearly a good place to pitch a magazine, because that's where you'll have the largest potential readership. And it seems to have worked. Of all the magazines I can remember from my early days in the hobby, RM is the only one still around (and, for that matter, the one I read at the time, because I, too, was an average, or typical, modeller rather than having the esoteric skillsets addressed by some of the other mags). But these days, "average" tends to be interpreted more often as meaning the median or mean, which is a much less useful metric in this context. So the idea of the "average modeller" is also probably less helpful than it once was. "Typical modeller" would probably be a better way of expressing it.

This. ^^

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

This is the age of the train ?

 

Sometimes an association becomes a blight; should have been 'Clunk, Click; you're coming down the nick'.