Hornby latest 8F

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, SD85 said:

A newly tooled 8F is one of the most obvious steam outline locomotives for any manufacturer to produce IMO...

Not least because all the current RTR eight coupled tender loco models, with the sole exception of Heljan's weighty O2, vary between light footed and just about a match for the best of the six coupled MT tender locos.

 

I have added internal weight to O1, O4, and WD to make the pulling as good as the external appearance suggests, and fitted H-D cast metal 8F bodies on the current Hornby 8F chassis, which better exploits the capabilities of these various mechanisms with the 'Hornby Doubly' mash up the champion for traction. Hornby could doubtless match this on a new 8F, as could a competitor or three...

[ColinB]

Well I was testing my one this afternoon and found the second set of wheels were stiff in their bearings which explained why it kept derailing. I thought it was dried oil but it was just machined badly. I suspect it had been like that from new which explains why someone sold it on EBay. Anyway while I was fixing that I realised that it had the old Hornby pickup system where they use the keeper plate to push the pickups hard against an eyelet for one pickup and a post for the other. I assume on the new one it is hard wired as per all their other locos, except the ones with the sprung pins.

Edited February 8 by ColinB

[GreatWesternFan220]

Observing the pictures on Rails reveals the smokebox door dart and top lamp iron are now molded as opposed to being separately fitted. Think I'll be sticking to the previous versions until a better alternative comes along personally. Had no intention of buying these re-releases of course but was only curious.

[ColinB]

43 minutes ago, GreatWesternFan220 said:

Observing the pictures on Rails reveals the smokebox door dart and top lamp iron are now molded as opposed to being separately fitted. Think I'll be sticking to the previous versions until a better alternative comes along personally. Had no intention of buying these re-releases of course but was only curious.

Same as me, I didn't know about smokebox dart, I will go and check on my old one. I imagine they would sell quite well if they were a reasonable price. Now I have got mine running properly quite a nice loco.

[stewartingram]

Regarding the 'high' price on 20 year old models, Hornby are a business, whose aim in life is to make a profit. They design a new loco, the cost of design and the making of the tooling has to be paid for in the selling price. (Don't forget this is normally to the retailer, who then adds a percentage on top to ensure he gets a profit; though today with direct interne sales the retailer can be out of the loop).

After a period of time (and sales) the development costs are paid for - the manufacturer plans this in the initial pricing, hopefully getting this right! After this he gets more profit on each sale. In days gone, the product would sell for years and years, but in todays fast moving world, much shorter runs happen, which means the setup costs have to be covered in a shorter period, thus increasing prices. And if the shorter run is then dropped, there are no higher profits later, as a newer item replaces it. Hence the business has lower profits (or even maybe losses) overall. So an older item when back in production has to also have price increases to keep the firm viable. In the case of a model loco, any changes to the design will have development costs to add in as well.

Note I have mentioned 'business' & 'item', not 'Hornby'' & 'model loco', as this is a fact of being a manufacturer. I'm not condoning a large increase in a particular price btw, just explaining things, the manufacturer has to decide prices himself.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, GreatWesternFan220 said:

Observing the pictures on Rails reveals the smokebox door dart and top lamp iron are now molded as opposed to being separately fitted. Think I'll be sticking to the previous versions until a better alternative comes along personally. Had no intention of buying these re-releases of course but was only curious.

 

Are you sure?

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/new-Hornby-class-8f

[GreatWesternFan220]

37 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Are you sure?

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/new-Hornby-class-8f

Quite sure. Those photos in the link are the digital photoshop renders. The photos below are of the actual model taken by Rails themselves. Hope it's ok to post these.

[leavesontheline]

8 hours ago, SD85 said:

A newly tooled 8F is one of the most obvious steam outline locomotives for any manufacturer to produce IMO and it's just bizarre that no one seems to be contemplating it. The current Hornby model is 20 years old and decent enough but is rarely in the catalogue and as noted above has its issues. I was wondering if Hornby were going to retool it after doing the 9F and the Black 5s but nothing has been announced so far.

For all we know, maybe someone already is?! It wouldn't surprise me, same as other Hornby models of this era like the Rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics that kicked off Hornby's 'revival' with Chinese manufacture along with the Black 5 as you already mention. 

 

2 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Regarding the 'high' price on 20 year old models, Hornby are a business, whose aim in life is to make a profit. They design a new loco, the cost of design and the making of the tooling has to be paid for in the selling price. (Don't forget this is normally to the retailer, who then adds a percentage on top to ensure he gets a profit; though today with direct interne sales the retailer can be out of the loop).

After a period of time (and sales) the development costs are paid for - the manufacturer plans this in the initial pricing, hopefully getting this right! After this he gets more profit on each sale. In days gone, the product would sell for years and years, but in todays fast moving world, much shorter runs happen, which means the setup costs have to be covered in a shorter period, thus increasing prices. And if the shorter run is then dropped, there are no higher profits later, as a newer item replaces it. Hence the business has lower profits (or even maybe losses) overall. So an older item when back in production has to also have price increases to keep the firm viable. In the case of a model loco, any changes to the design will have development costs to add in as well.

Note I have mentioned 'business' & 'item', not 'Hornby'' & 'model loco', as this is a fact of being a manufacturer. I'm not condoning a large increase in a particular price btw, just explaining things, the manufacturer has to decide prices himself.

There is no doubting any of this but I just wonder how many they will sell at £250 or even the -10% selling price of £225? The typical selling price of the latest Hornby 9F, at about £200, is kind of justifiable (as much as any prices are justifiable these days!) as it is arguably one of the best OO steam models out there and could be considered 'state of the art'. But the 8F, though still one of my favourite Hornby models, has no-where near the fidelity and presence of the latest 9F. They are leagues apart. In this latest 8F the 'change in design' seems to be to downgrade the smokebox to make it cheaper to manufacture! All mine have separate smokebox door darts and lamp irons too! Just look at the likes of R2229, R2462 and R3564 on Hattons' website (another reason I'll really miss Hattons).

 

I was paying around £60-£70 in the early-mid 2010's for brand new 8F's and the last one I bought was R3564 in 2017 which was about £110 (selling price). I just can't get my head around the jump from £110 in 2017 to £225 in 2024 (just!). We won't know the reasons for the price increase (other than, as you say, just to make money) but this seems an unreasonable hike for this particular model or 'grade' of model. I wonder how many other models or even general electronics goods have seen prices double in the past 6-7 years?

 

Edited just to add, that by my own reasoning and numbers, it actually doubled in price from say 2010 to 2017, so I guess why shouldn't it double again in the following 7 years!! Maybe to me 2010 to 2017 seemed like a long time apart, but 2017 still seems like barely yesterday. I guess that's the lost 'covid years' for you! I still think there is a ceiling for such a model and this has now been exceeded though.

Edited February 8 by leavesontheline

[ColinB]

6 minutes ago, leavesontheline said:

For all we know, maybe someone already is?! It wouldn't surprise me, same as other Hornby models of this era like the Rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics that kicked off Hornby's 'revival' with Chinese manufacture along with the Black 5 as you already mention. 

 

There is no doubting any of this but I just wonder how many they will sell at £250 or even the -10% selling price of £225? The typical selling price of the latest Hornby 9F, at about £200, is kind of justifiable (as much as any prices are justifiable these days!) as it is arguably one of the best OO steam models out there and could be considered 'state of the art'. But the 8F, though still one of my favourite Hornby models, has no-where near the fidelity and presence of the latest 9F. They are leagues apart. In this latest 8F the 'change in design' seems to be to downgrade the smokebox to make it cheaper to make! All mine have separate smokebox door darts and lamp irons too! Just look at the likes of R2229, R2462 and R3564 on Hattons' website (another reason I'll really miss Hattons!).

 

I was paying around £60-£70 in the early-mid 2010's for brand new 8F's and the last one I bought was R3564 in 2017 which was about £110 (selling price). I just can't get my head around the jump from £110 in 2017 to £225 in 2024 (just!). We won't know the reasons for the price increase (other than, as you say, just to make money) but this seems an unreasonable hike for this particular model or 'grade' of model. I wonder how many other models or even general electronics goods have seen prices double in the past 6-7 years?

I totally agree. I know full well Hornby is a business and will charge what it considers is a reasonable price. I get this on the Hornby site all the time, my bigger question is the person that posted that, going to buy one? Surprisingly you can go bankrupt by losing all your customers, many businesses have. I have the Evening Star that I pre ordered and it is right it is a good model and definitely worth the price I paid but Hornby were not so lucky with the 9Fs built on the same platform, many were in Retailers sales. This is a really old model as someone stated it is more expensive than the "retooled" Black 5. I think even Bachmann is beginning to get the message if you look at what they were charging for the Booster. At the end of the day it doesn't matter it will eventually either sell out or be in one of those bargain bins.

[melmerby]

34 minutes ago, leavesontheline said:

I was paying around £60-£70 in the early-mid 2010's for brand new 8F's and the last one I bought was R3564 in 2017 which was about £110 (selling price). I just can't get my head around the jump from £110 in 2017 to £225 in 2024 (just!). We won't know the reasons for the price increase (other than, as you say, just to make money) but this seems an unreasonable hike for this particular model or 'grade' of model. I wonder how many other models or even general electronics goods have seen prices double in the past 6-7 years?

Have you checked any other product price increases in the same period? Many have doubled.

 

BTW I nearly had a heart attack when looking at spares for a Ford Focus, some of the headlight units are over £1000, the lowest is about half that.

 I remember when a sealed beam unit was about £1 !😄

Even a plastic lens for a wing mirror indicator is £45 (what I was looking for)

No wonder motor insurance costs have gone up so much.

 

42 minutes ago, leavesontheline said:

general electronics goods

Most have very limited (or no) manual input compared to model railway products, which are effectively hand built from a tray of parts.

 

I don't like the high prices but accept that there has been some serious disruption to the world economy from more than one event.

[Jon Harbour]

I'm disappointed that the 'new' 8F still has an 8 pin DCC socket when 21 PIN is the defacto standard alongside the Next 18.

[ColinB]

17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Have you checked any other product price increases in the same period? Many have doubled.

 

BTW I nearly had a heart attack when looking at spares for a Ford Focus, some of the headlight units are over £1000, the lowest is about half that.

 I remember when a sealed beam unit was about £1 !😄

Even a plastic lens for a wing mirror indicator is £45 (what I was looking for)

No wonder motor insurance costs have gone up so much.

 

Most have very limited (or no) manual input compared to model railway products, which are effectively hand built from a tray of parts.

 

I don't like the high prices but accept that there has been some serious disruption to the world economy from more than one event.

I hate to say it but you can't compare the price of a Ford Focus headlight unit to a Hornby model railway loco. For a start this loco is about 20 years old, the Ford Focus headlight you are quoting is probably a LED based one, totally difference technology with probably a ton of electronics.  Car spares from a Main Dealer have always been ridiculous prices, I get an employee discount and even I get some from motor factors. You could do the comparison with a fat fryer, I just bought one, virtually same price as the last one four years ago, so it all depends what you want to do it with.

[ColinB]

7 minutes ago, Jon Harbour said:

I'm disappointed that the 'new' 8F still has an 8 pin DCC socket when 21 PIN is the defacto standard alongside the Next 18.

According to Hornby's web site which was wrong when I started this subject, it is now a 21 pin socket.

[Jon Harbour]

I really hope so. The e-mail I had from Rails today announcing the 8F arrival said an 8-pin socket... Time will tell.. 🙂

Edited February 9 by Jon Harbour

[leavesontheline]

36 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Have you checked any other product price increases in the same period? Many have doubled.

 

BTW I nearly had a heart attack when looking at spares for a Ford Focus, some of the headlight units are over £1000, the lowest is about half that.

 I remember when a sealed beam unit was about £1 !😄

Even a plastic lens for a wing mirror indicator is £45 (what I was looking for)

No wonder motor insurance costs have gone up so much.

 

Most have very limited (or no) manual input compared to model railway products, which are effectively hand built from a tray of parts.

 

I don't like the high prices but accept that there has been some serious disruption to the world economy from more than one event.

 

I haven't really checked any others no but no other price rises have jumped out at me like this one has.

 

As it happens there is another interesting 'comparison' I have just found out about - over on the Accurascale thread about their acquisition of the Hattons Andrew Barclay and P Class models. I bought a couple of these for £99 in 2018 which was the selling price new from Hattons. So I was amazed to read this evening that Hattons had been due to sell this next batch for less, at £85. I was then even more surprised to read that Accurascale were apologising for having to put the price up to ..... wait for it ...... £99! So exactly the same as six years ago. These are very fine models and I'm sure the assembly time must be up there with the larger 8F due to all the extra details! I don't know all the details behind the manufacture of either model and what the actual production cost is, but I do find this comparison fascinating all the same!

 

I know there are so many reasons for price rises and the situation 'is what it is' but that doesn't stop us from wondering 'why' and 'how' sometimes! I also believe that there are many industries, markets, companies who are just capitalising on various global situations to charge the customer more, or at least 'test the market' and see what people will pay!

[micklner]

Unlike Hornby they are  probably not millions in debt ??

 

As to the 8F, Hornby are going to lose even more trying to sell 20 year old "updated" version at new model premium prices. Will dealers even stock them ?

 

The same thinking the same old tat Wagons and Coaches they still churn out , no idea what the Hornby reasoning is behind them. Again do they actually sell ?

At least they have finally doing a new re run of the excellent  Trout Ballast Wagon from a few years ago. However Scottish Area markings and £30 a time, sorry not viable for me at least, a wait for secondhand ones on ebay in due course .

Edited February 9 by micklner

[Gilbert]

8 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

I'm disappointed that the 'new' 8F still has an 8 pin DCC socket when 21 PIN is the defacto standard alongside the Next 18.

A basic upgrade to NEM coupler pockets would also seem overdue....

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Unlike Hornby they are  probably not millions in debt ??

 

As to the 8F, Hornby are going to lose even more trying to sell 20 year old "updated" version at new model premium prices. Will dealers even stock them ?

 

The same thinking the same old tat Wagons and Coaches they still churn out , no idea what the Hornby reasoning is behind them. Again do they actually sell ?

At least they have finally doing a new re run of the excellent  Trout Ballast Wagon from a few years ago. However Scottish Area markings and £30 a time, sorry not viable for me at least, a wait for secondhand ones on ebay in due course .

Some of Dapol's wagons are generally old but because of their price I don't really care and if you visit any preservation railway that sells model railways their commemoration wagons are always made by Dapol. They obviously make a profit on these on else they wouldn't sell them. 

[ColinB]

8 hours ago, leavesontheline said:

 

I haven't really checked any others no but no other price rises have jumped out at me like this one has.

 

As it happens there is another interesting 'comparison' I have just found out about - over on the Accurascale thread about their acquisition of the Hattons Andrew Barclay and P Class models. I bought a couple of these for £99 in 2018 which was the selling price new from Hattons. So I was amazed to read this evening that Hattons had been due to sell this next batch for less, at £85. I was then even more surprised to read that Accurascale were apologising for having to put the price up to ..... wait for it ...... £99! So exactly the same as six years ago. These are very fine models and I'm sure the assembly time must be up there with the larger 8F due to all the extra details! I don't know all the details behind the manufacture of either model and what the actual production cost is, but I do find this comparison fascinating all the same!

 

I know there are so many reasons for price rises and the situation 'is what it is' but that doesn't stop us from wondering 'why' and 'how' sometimes! I also believe that there are many industries, markets, companies who are just capitalising on various global situations to charge the customer more, or at least 'test the market' and see what people will pay!

micklner got it right they are millions in debt but ripping off their customer isn't going to get them far. Most people can look at an Accurascale or Dapol Manor and realise it takes about the same resource to make it, plus in both cases they had development costs to cover and ask why is it cheaper. Similarly they can look at a Cavalex class 56, compare it to a Hornby and say the same. A lot of people don't like Sam but he only says what a lot of us are thinking.

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

A basic upgrade to NEM coupler pockets would also seem overdue....

Surely the tender has the new coupling they can use the same tender bottom used on the Duchess but the front pony one, I don't think they have ever upgraded it. There again it shouldn't cost millions to fix that, that is what I mean, if you want to charge a fortune do a little bit of work.

[AY Mod]

22 minutes ago, ColinB said:

they are millions in debt but ripping off their customer isn't going to get them far.

 

This is the sort of immature and naive comment I expect to see on Facebook. How is a business ripping anyone off if they are in debt and not making large profits?

 

Pack in the inflammatory statements please.

[NBL]

58 minutes ago, ColinB said:

micklner got it right they are millions in debt but ripping off their customer isn't going to get them far. Most people can look at an Accurascale or Dapol Manor and realise it takes about the same resource to make it, plus in both cases they had development costs to cover and ask why is it cheaper. Similarly they can look at a Cavalex class 56, compare it to a Hornby and say the same. A lot of people don't like Sam but he only says what a lot of us are thinking.

You cannot compare prices of different manufacturers unless they are making the exact same model with the exact same overheads, and exact same business models.

 

Things cost what they cost, we are not forced to buy them.  It's not bread or medicine, it's luxury products.  Moaning about prices is only bringing angst to yourself.

 

 

[sjp23480]

It will be interesting to see if the new 8F price point will have any impact on secondhand values on ebay?

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

...As to the 8F, Hornby are going to lose even more trying to sell 20 year old "updated" version at new model premium prices. Will dealers even stock them ?

 

The same thinking the same old tat Wagons and Coaches they still churn out , no idea what the Hornby reasoning is behind them. Again do they actually sell ?...

Clearly from Hornby's position the anticipated answer is going to be 'Yes' to both questions. There's a proven customer base out there that reliably buys what is sold under the Hornby brand label, and as long as this endures the pattern continues

 

When the 'same old tat' disappears from the catalogue, we'll know that the answer has changed to 'No'.

 

And I am equally looking forward to  a Trout or three, and the filth will hide the North of the Border stuff...

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

This is the sort of immature and naive comment I expect to see on Facebook. How is a business ripping anyone off if they are in debt and not making large profits?

 

Pack in the inflammatory statements please.

Sorry.