Hornby latest 8F

[adb968008]

On 09/02/2024 at 08:56, micklner said:

 

 

As to the 8F, Hornby are going to lose even more trying to sell 20 year old "updated" version at new model premium prices. Will dealers even stock them ?

 

The retailers are Hornbys customer, not us on the high street.

 

As long as the retailer pays the bill, Hornby has no worries, and the risk of selling it moves to the retailer.

 

I think we are in a weird space where older models become more detailed than newer ones.

We were kind of there for a while on railroad too,  where older ones had better paint jobs, but at least the newer ones sold cheaply as chassis upgrades.

I think this 8f needs good luck to sell it, but I think my older ones will be staying with me, they might even go up in price a few quid, even at half the price I dont want or need it, if anything I was expecting the 8f to downgrade to railroad.

The odd thing is the 1980’s tooling really isnt that far off the current tooling, it could even be made to fit the current chassis as the dimensions are the same enough.

 

Just a thought to the above… perhaps this new 8f is using the smokebox door tooling of the old 8f ?… the darts are in identical positions, and the thickness of the door hinges look a bit wider (like the 1980’s) rather than the 2000’s tooling too ?

 

The rest of the tooling is definitely the newer one..but the two toolings were very similar.

 

Original R322..

https://www.hattons.co.uk/14544/hornby_r322_8f_class_8f_2_8_0_48758_in_br_black/stockdetail
 

2000’s era..

https://oliviastrains.com/product/Hornby-r2227-8f-7675-lner-black-livery/
 

This one..

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/Hornby-r30282-class-8f-2-8-0-no-48518-br-steam-locomotive

Edited February 13 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The retailers are Hornbys customer, not us on the high street.

 

As long as the retailer pays the bill, Hornby has no worries, and the risk of selling it moves to the retailer.

 

I think we are in a weird space where older models become more detailed than newer ones.

We were kind of there for a while on railroad too,  where older ones had better paint jobs, but at least the newer ones sold cheaply as chassis upgrades.

I think this 8f needs good luck to sell it, but I think my older ones will be staying with me, they might even go up in price a few quid, even at half the price I dont want or need it, if anything I was expecting the 8f to downgrade to railroad.

The odd thing is the 1980’s tooling really isnt that far off the current tooling, it could even be made to fit the current chassis as the dimensions are the same enough.

 

Just a thought to the above… perhaps this new 8f is using the smokebox door tooling of the old 8f ?… the darts are in identical positions, and the thickness of the door hinges look a bit wider (like the 1980’s) rather than the 2000’s tooling too ?

 

 

 

Not so. I think I've bought most of my Hornby models in the last two years directly from Hornby*!

 

So am I not Hornby's customer?

 

 

 

*And that will go up seeing as my main Hornby supplier is no more....

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 13 by Steamport Southport

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not so. I think I've bought most of my Hornby models in the last two years directly from Hornby*!

 

So am I not Hornby's customer?

 

 

 

*And that will go up seeing as my main Hornby supplier is no more....

 

 

 

Jason

Is Hornbys website a customer of Hornby’s Distribution though ?.. internal transactions etc?

 

The website is still only a small part of Hornbys sales numbers… the annual reports split the numbers out as if it is.

Agreed to the man on the street its all the same.

Edited February 13 by adb968008

[Butler Henderson]

Maybe someone should try contacting Hornby. There is the other possibility of the factory pulling a fast one and they may not be aware,

[micklner]

44 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Maybe someone should try contacting Hornby. There is the other possibility of the factory pulling a fast one and they may not be aware,

No company will be so naieve. Could they  ???

[E100]

I do remember pointing out the odd pricing on these when first announced. Obviously, it's their prerogative as to what price they put them at and I presume they are simply their because a few people will buy them at RRP and then they can be heavily discounted. For me they would become viable at 40% off. They've had recent A3's sold at a heavier discount so I would expect these will end in up the bargain bins.

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

No company will be so naieve. Could they  ???

 

We have had some tooling in the past from Hornby assembled using the wrong parts; Notably B-Set carriages on B4 bogies.  Someone grabbed bogies from the wrong bucket of Airfix bits ("B4 Bogie" rather than "B Set Bogie" perhaps) not knowing any better.

 

So, speculatively what we might have is "someone" making an accidental or deliberate substitution at the factory with a part out of a similarly named "8F" bin of parts.

 

If deliberate, it would be an effort to reduce assembly steps and hence reduce assembly costs.  If accidental, for some reason they had that bucket of parts sitting around for some reason.

[sjp23480]

Has anyone seen one in the flesh and can confirm, or deny the froth?

[Buhar]

FWIW the Hornby image for R30281 on their website clearly shows a separate smokebox dart and the front handrail doesn't look moulded.  I'm not sure of the veracity of that image (artist's impression, old photo or what) but that's what Hornby are advertising.

 

Alan

[Kaput]

There is actual pictures up on Rails and Kernow's websites (Kernow only has the BR livery pictures atm, Rails has both).

 

The angles aren't great but the smokebox dart does look moulded on. The handrail I'm not so sure about it.

Edited February 13 by Kaput

[maico]

2 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Has anyone seen one in the flesh and can confirm, or deny the froth?

 

The Rails pic clearly shows separately fitted!

[No Decorum]

9 hours ago, maico said:

 

The Rails pic clearly shows separately fitted!

Apologies but even enlarging that picture I can’t make it out one way or the other.

[Fair Oak Junction]

It's mind blowing to me that image is from a model released in 2024 priced with an RRP of £250!

And people will defend this while complaining that a beautiful, intricately detailed new tooled loco costs £220.....utter madness.

[ColinB]

9 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

It's mind blowing to me that image is from a model released in 2024 priced with an RRP of £250!

And people will defend this while complaining that a beautiful, intricately detailed new tooled loco costs £220.....utter madness.

I know, but every time I do the same and compare models from other manufacturers that cost less, I get a load of abuse. In the end the market will decide and they will be in someone's sale. I never thought an HST or APT was worth what Hornby were charging and surprise surprise I eventually got both models at a price which I thought reflected their worth. There again when the Booster came out at a very reasonable price, I got a load of abuse on this site because I questioned as to why was it was so cheap. 

Perhaps Hornby thought we haven't released the model for a long time, there don't seem to be many out there pre owned, so we can charge a premium. Who knows?

Edited February 14 by ColinB

[Fair Oak Junction]

Exactly, we'll never know the reasoning behind it. It is what it is and as you say, the market will tell if it was the right decision or not for them.

For me that smokebox dart sticks out like flashing red warning light. Fine on a cheap/second hand model, not fine on one that expensive.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, ColinB said:

I know, but every time I do the same and compare models from other manufacturers that cost less, I get a load of abuse. In the end the market will decide and they will be in someone's sale. I never thought an HST or APT was worth what Hornby were charging and surprise surprise I eventually got both models at a price which I thought reflected their worth. There again when the Booster came out at a very reasonable price, I got a load of abuse on this site because I questioned as to why was it was so cheap. 

Perhaps Hornby thought we haven't released the model for a long time, there don't seem to be many out there pre owned, so we can charge a premium. Who knows?

 

Older models cost more to make. No idea why, they just do, or so we are told!

 

And despite comments to the contrary both the 8F and Fowler 4P date from the 1970s and 1980s respectfully. They've just had a few "dustings over" since. Slight updates each time. 

 

They all really need completely new tooling starting from scratch to 21st Century standards. Whether that comes from Hornby or elsewhere isn't for me to say.

 

 

 

Jason

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Older models cost more to make. No idea why, they just do, or so we are told!

 

And despite comments to the contrary both the 8F and Fowler 4P date from the 1970s and 1980s respectfully. They've just had a few "dustings over" since. Slight updates each time. 

 

They all really need completely new tooling starting from scratch to 21st Century standards. Whether that comes from Hornby or elsewhere isn't for me to say.

 

 

 

Jason

The current 8F and Fowler 4p, are the retooled versions, the ones you are talking about were tender driven for the 8F (I think that is right) and for the 4P a totally different motor and valve gear, which meant a new body, but they are still old models ( I don't know when they changed but it was a long time ago). As to older models costing more to make I assume it is because manufacturing processes have improved but these processes can't be used with older models. A lot of companies normally sell their older models at a reduced price, it definitely happens with cars because other than the raw materials and production costs, most of the product is profit, the tooling and development costs having been recovered years ago. If you look at electric tools and domestic appliances, you normally pay less for the older model. 

Edited February 14 by ColinB

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Older models cost more to make. No idea why, they just do, or so we are told!

Completely different business, but as someone who had periodically to organise for the manufacture of batches of spares for earlier products, I can supply potential reasons from oft painful experience.

Charges for:

interruption to manufacturing of current far more profitable product,

Worn tooling requiring reconditioning, and even with that causing high reject rate,

Requirement for superseded materials in small and thus expensive quantities,

Staff refresher training on now unfamiliar techniques, and far less foolproofing of assembly,

Packaging not compatible with new standardised pallet size,

'Someone' in logistics deleted the end product codes from the stock management system so the distribution centres refused delivery, (that was a real favourite of mine when it occurred).

There were yet more...

 

The data for all such charges were required for both pricing and to make the case that the product be withdrawn (and the potential saving be used to buy off customer objections).

[Flying Pig]

10 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Requirement for superseded materials in small and thus expensive quantities

 

 

Make that obsolete materials containing now-banned ingredients.

[Butler Henderson]

On 14/02/2024 at 14:39, ColinB said:

The current 8F and Fowler 4p, are the retooled versions, the ones you are talking about were tender driven for the 8F (I think that is right) and for the 4P a totally different motor and valve gear, which meant a new body, but they are still old models ( I don't know when they changed but it was a long time ago). As to older models costing more to make I assume it is because manufacturing processes have improved but these processes can't be used with older models. A lot of companies normally sell their older models at a reduced price, it definitely happens with cars because other than the raw materials and production costs, most of the product is profit, the tooling and development costs having been recovered years ago. If you look at electric tools and domestic appliances, you normally pay less for the older model. 

The  chunky valve gear 1980 Fowler 2P and the 1988 8F were last made in 1998. The replacement high detail models of both were released in 2003.

Edited February 15 by Butler Henderson

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, ColinB said:

I know, but every time I do the same and compare models from other manufacturers that cost less, I get a load of abuse.

That might be because if your chosen era / location requires an 8F, it doesn’t matter how much cheaper / better detailed an Acurascale manor is the Hornby product is what you are going to buy.

 

Its a concept which a certain internet reviewer completely fails to comprehend when he reviews stuff - though to be fair he doesn’t really care about accuracy and just wants stuff that looks pretty / fun as he runs them round his floor.

 

However as a model it cannot be denied that Hornby 8F tooling is dated by todays standards and as such the model is definitely overpriced. But if you need an 8F then it’s what you have to pay….

 

 

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

And despite comments to the contrary both the 8F and Fowler 4P date from the 1970s and 1980s respectfully. They've just had a few "dustings over" since. Slight updates each time. 

 

 

Don’t pedal lies!

 

Both the 8F and the Fowler 4P got completely new tooling for both bodies and their chassis (at the same time I hasten to add) between the years 2000 and 2010

 

They owe NOTHING to their 1980s predessors!

 

At the time of release they were a world away from the 1980s versions they replaced and stod up well to other models being produced at the time.

 

Naturally 15-20 years on they are showing their age as manufacturers have increased detail and features during that time - much like a Ford Focus from 2005 is pretty dated by todays standards yet was the bees knees when first released.

Edited February 14 by phil-b259

[Fair Oak Junction]

Apart from the smokebox door on this 8F, which IS from the older model. That 2000s tooling 8F didn't have the moulded dart this one does. So this is a step backwards in that regard.

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Apart from the smokebox door on this 8F, which IS from the older model. That 2000s tooling 8F didn't have the moulded dart this one does. So this is a step backwards in that regard.

There's no firm evidence that the dart on the latest release is moulded on, just done assumptions.

[Fair Oak Junction]

1 minute ago, spamcan61 said:

There's no firm evidence that the dart on the latest release is moulded on, just done assumptions.

 

No, the product images on Rails of Sheffield clearly show a moulded dart:

Compared to the front of the last version: