Hornby latest 8F

[spamcan61]

Just now, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

No, the product images on Rails of Sheffield clearly show a moulded dart:

Compared to the front of the last version:

Fair enough, whilst it'd be nice if someone confirmed from an actual purchase I agree that does look moulded on.

[daltonparva]

It's not just the dart that's moulded, the lamp iron is as well.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Yes, the lamp iron really does not look good either.

[Black 5 Bear]

Having seen this latest Hornby release today at my local model shop, I think I'll wait for one of the "New Kids on the Block" to produce an all new 8F.

IMHO, very much an open goal!

[Ribird]

Kernow have pictures of the BR one on their site now, definitely looks to be moulded dart and top lamp iron. 

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/80084/R30282-Hornby-BR-Class-8F-2-8-0--No-48518---Era-5

[Fair Oak Junction]

I was in the market for an 8F, to turn into a WD one, but even on sale I wont be buying one of these. I'll either look for a good second hand one, with the better smokebox door, or wait for the inevitable new tooled one in the future. Charging modern prices for older models is one thing, but actively making a model worse? Nope.

[MikeParkin65]

43 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

I was in the market for an 8F, to turn into a WD one, but even on sale I wont be buying one of these. I'll either look for a good second hand one, with the better smokebox door, or wait for the inevitable new tooled one in the future. Charging modern prices for older models is one thing, but actively making a model worse? Nope.

For a repaint definitely get on eBay or similar - £75 tops for one of the less popular identities (the LNER one for example). The cheapest I saw last week went for £20(!) albeit it lacked a tender but Stanier tenders easy to find too (or even a comet kit).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

...Naturally 15-20 years on they are showing their age as manufacturers have increased detail and features during that time...

Contra, put the Bachmann WD 2-8-0 (1999 release) alongside the 8F and see what the available benchmark in best RTR OO steam model was back then. That was the first RTR OO model that I felt was worth showing to my HO modelling continental cousins.

 

(Same comparison applies to Hornby's Fowler 2-6-4T vs Bach's BR std 2-6-4T.)

 

Hornby were trailing badly, and didn't achieve parity with Bachmann until the introduction of the Britannia in 2006. They might have got on sooner with replacement of key classes is my feeling.

[andyman7]

20 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Older models cost more to make. No idea why, they just do, or so we are told!

 

And despite comments to the contrary both the 8F and Fowler 4P date from the 1970s and 1980s respectfully. They've just had a few "dustings over" since. Slight updates each time. 

 

They all really need completely new tooling starting from scratch to 21st Century standards. Whether that comes from Hornby or elsewhere isn't for me to say.

 

 

 

Jason

 

15 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Don’t pedal lies!

 

Both the 8F and the Fowler 4P got completely new tooling for both bodies and their chassis (at the same time I hasten to add) between the years 2000 and 2010

 

They owe NOTHING to their 1980s predessors!

 

At the time of release they were a world away from the 1980s versions they replaced and stod up well to other models being produced at the time.

 

Naturally 15-20 years on they are showing their age as manufacturers have increased detail and features during that time - much like a Ford Focus from 2005 is pretty dated by todays standards yet was the bees knees when first released.

 

Even the old tool 8F was originally released in 1988 so that's not a 1970s model

 

14 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

There's no firm evidence that the dart on the latest release is moulded on, just done assumptions.

 

Furthermore, even if it is it won't be the tool from the 'old' 8F because that won't exist. If it is a different smokebox moulding the most likely explanation will be that the previous one was broken or missing and a new one has had to me tooled up. The manufacture of models for Hornby is undertaken by a number of suppliers. Many of the older Chinese tools were originally used to produce models at the Sanda Kan facility and when that closed there was not an orderly transfer of tools - some may recall the threads from a decade back relating to the rather difficult situation that Hornby found themselves in.

 

I'm not going to comment on the pricing of this model but it is worth laying to rest the impression that models from old tools are always cheap to knock out. There may not be the origination cost of cutting the tools but finding them, testing them, making sure all the ancillary bits (glazing, smokebox door, detail parts) are accounted for is a considerable piece of work. and the assembly costs a lot more than it used to when most detail was moulded on (smokebox door handle or not...) now that Chinese labour costs have risen. 

[andyman7]

5 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Contra, put the Bachmann WD 2-8-0 (1999 release) alongside the 8F and see what the available benchmark in best RTR OO steam model was back then. That was the first RTR OO model that I felt was worth showing to my HO modelling continental cousins.

 

(Same comparison applies to Hornby's Fowler 2-6-4T vs Bach's BR std 2-6-4T.)

 

Hornby were trailing badly, and didn't achieve parity with Bachmann until the introduction of the Britannia in 2006. They might have got on sooner with replacement of key classes is my feeling.

That's a subjective view - in 1999 the rebuilt Merchant Navy upped the game compared to Bachmann; as for D & E models, there was a period from 2003 - 2008 when Hornby were outshining Bachmann. Nowadays for D & E Hornby is towards the back of the pack, but for steam, Bachmann doesn't seem too bothered to run head-to head with Hornby these days.

Edited February 15 by andyman7

[micklner]

3 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

 

 

Even the old tool 8F was originally released in 1988 so that's not a 1970s model

 

 

Furthermore, even if it is it won't be the tool from the 'old' 8F because that won't exist. If it is a different smokebox moulding the most likely explanation will be that the previous one was broken or missing and a new one has had to me tooled up. The manufacture of models for Hornby is undertaken by a number of suppliers. Many of the older Chinese tools were originally used to produce models at the Sanda Kan facility and when that closed there was not an orderly transfer of tools - some may recall the threads from a decade back relating to the rather difficult situation that Hornby found themselves in.

 

I'm not going to comment on the pricing of this model but it is worth laying to rest the impression that models from old tools are always cheap to knock out. There may not be the origination cost of cutting the tools but finding them, testing them, making sure all the ancillary bits (glazing, smokebox door, detail parts) are accounted for is a considerable piece of work. and the assembly costs a lot more than it used to when most detail was moulded on (smokebox door handle or not...) now that Chinese labour costs have risen. 

No idea why excuses are being made or even suggested. Hornby for reasons only known to themselves have decided to rehash a very old model,  and are then trying then sell it a premium price . For that money it should be a all new model.

[ColinB]

I suppose the only positive for Hornby is that there are very few spares available so fixing an old broken model is difficult, so you are forced to buy new. As to the people that are saying that it costs more to resurrect and old model and sell it, well that is Hornby's issue not the customers. Personally as I don't model a particular era, there are better models out there that I can spend my money on and in this case it is probably going to be less.

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

I was in the market for an 8F, to turn into a WD one, but even on sale I wont be buying one of these. I'll either look for a good second hand one, with the better smokebox door, or wait for the inevitable new tooled one in the future. Charging modern prices for older models is one thing, but actively making a model worse? Nope.

Couple of points….and I appreciate your views….If looking for “a good second hand one “consider the possibility of Mazak rot as any around will be 10+ years old and could be affected : and secondly don’t assume that a newly tooled version will be coming any time soon. As an aside,compare this release with Hornby’s decision to retool the Black 5.Yes it’s a puzzle but atm things appear to be in a state of flux.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

14 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

That's a subjective view - in 1999 the rebuilt Merchant Navy upped the game compared to Bachmann;

And that's a subjective view too. But my view is informed by objective comparisons of the mechanisms. The rebuilt MN was way off the pace compared to Bachmann's 'Blue Riband' steam models. Still a lot of bad old Margateness in the mechanism, live chassis block, dire tender electrical coupling, mechanically inept and thus weak motor mount, floppy pick up wipers, bogie loosely waving about on a stick.

 

The MN comfortably outpaced Bach's earlier split chassis models, but those were not the benchmark, because it came out after the WD 2-8-0 (among others) went on sale, which I think you need to look at : isolated chassis block, steel drawbar to tender correctly through the drag boxes, solidly mounted motor, neat shaped  pick up wipers fully concealed behind the wheelbacks, sprung leading truck and two sprung coupled wheels. It's streets ahead.

 

In twin bogie D+E traction Bach had the centre motor drive on sale a decade before Hornby, and in their first Blue Riband diesel, the class 24 mechanism leaves the slightly later introduction of the initial Hornby equivalent -  30/31 - in the dust for reliability and longevity.

 

Happily Hornby have worked up to overall lead position in steam since then. Though they need to watch out, Bachmann have mastered the 0-4-4T with  MR and NER models which leave all the earlier introductions - good looking though they may be - behind by a country mile. These Bachmann models have a constructional scheme which places the centre of balance within the coupled wheelbase for stable traction; and thus now we can have a range of competent front coupled steam designs.

[Going Spare]

The rebuilt Merchant Navy did not have a live chassis block.

[cctransuk]

I think that the bottom line is that, if Hornby think that this latest incarnation will fit the bill at their projected price point, they can expect a competitor very soon.

 

I do wonder whether Hornby have some inside knowledge of an 8F under development elsewhere, and are trying to milk their existing tools before they become total 'old hat'.

 

CJI.

Edited February 15 by cctransuk

[adb968008]

Interesting

 

the 8f is rrp £249

 

the new black 5 is rrp £229

Whilst the debate about the possible use of an old 8f smokebox door or tooling or a similar new one is verified, they could have at least used the Black 5 pony wheelset under the 8f at the same time… that and the non nem compliant lump of a pony truck are what lets it down most imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15 by adb968008

[spamcan61]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Interesting

 

the 8f is rrp £249

 

the new black 5 is rrp £229

Whilst the debate about the possible use of L6475 as the 8f smokebox door is verified, they could have at least used the Black 5 pony wheelset under the 8f at the same time… that and the non nem compliant lump of a pony truck are what lets it down most imo.

 

Different factories maybe?

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

No idea why excuses are being made or even suggested. Hornby for reasons only known to themselves have decided to rehash a very old model,  and are then trying then sell it a premium price . For that money it should be all new model.

A ‘very old model’ - certainly NOT!

 

An ‘old model’ (as something that was freshly tooled up from scratch during the 2000-2010 time period like this incarnation of the 8F - Yes.

 

Only Hornby can tell you why the latest release has seemingly used the smoke box door from the 1980s model (which subsequently was released as a ‘railroad’ model) but it could be something as simple as a factory error.

 

Its also the case that only Horny can tell you why it’s so highly priced - and on the face of it the RRP for what is now dated toolings does seem excessive.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

49 minutes ago, Going Spare said:

The rebuilt Merchant Navy did not have a live chassis block.

Your evidence? A friend bought the initial rebuilt MN release 'Clan Line' in 2000 and the screw securing the inept motor mount had a tag under it with a wire to a motor terminal. That's the sign peculiar of a live chassis block. It has likely been upgraded since, when it became clear to Hornby this was NBG for DCC.

[MikeParkin65]

40 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

A ‘very old model’ - certainly NOT!

 

An ‘old model’ (as something that was freshly tooled up from scratch during the 2000-2010 time period like this incarnation of the 8F - Yes.

 

Only Hornby can tell you why the latest release has seemingly used the smoke box door from the 1980s model (which subsequently was released as a ‘railroad’ model) but it could be something as simple as a factory error.

 

Its also the case that only Horny can tell you why it’s so highly priced - and on the face of it the RRP for what is now dated toolings does seem excessive.

This whole discussion is getting pretty niche now but I dont think the tender drive 8F tooling has appeared in the Railroad range

[maico]

14 hours ago, Ribird said:

Kernow have pictures of the BR one on their site now, definitely looks to be moulded dart and top lamp iron. 

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/80084/R30282-Hornby-BR-Class-8F-2-8-0--No-48518---Era-5

 

It looks like a case of reverse evolution...

 

Some of the magazines will trot out the 'wealth of details' line (copyright railway modeller magazine 1975) but the retailers will find it a hard sell.

Edited February 15 by maico

[daltonparva]

I've been to Rails this afternoon as they're having a Hornby event with a couple of Hornby people there, and I wanted to pick someone's brains about a small niggle with a HM7000 decoder. Both Hornby people are now aware (they weren't) about the smokebox door and will be conversing with the relevant department when they return. As luck would have it, Rails have both new examples in a cabinet (both have old moulded door), and in another second hand cabinet they have a previous modern release 8F with and older example 8F side by side, so both could be compared. Both chappies were at a loss to know why the old door has migrated on to the new model.  I also pointed out Hornby's promotional stuff show it should have the newer door.

[ColinB]

22 minutes ago, daltonparva said:

I've been to Rails this afternoon as they're having a Hornby event with a couple of Hornby people there, and I wanted to pick someone's brains about a small niggle with a HM7000 decoder. Both Hornby people are now aware (they weren't) about the smokebox door and will be conversing with the relevant department when they return. As luck would have it, Rails have both new examples in a cabinet (both have old moulded door), and in another second hand cabinet they have a previous modern release 8F with and older example 8F side by side, so both could be compared. Both chappies were at a loss to know why the old door has migrated on to the new model.  I also pointed out Hornby's promotional stuff show it should have the newer door.

Great thanks for doing that. It at least lets us know.

[steve45]

Let's face it, Hornby are in the game to maximise the profit for shareholders and not producing beautifully accurate models. They are continuing to trade off the Hornby name which will sell a sub-standard model to a lot punters who don't know any better.

 

Wow, now I've said it!