When does a trainset become a model railway - what's your criteria?

[97406]

In its current form, I don’t run trains on my layout as it’s a diesel and electric depot. One day it will have a main line bolted onto it and then that will change!

[The Johnster]

Oh, now, this one's gonna run and run.  We all know what we mean by train set and how a train set differs from a model railway, but the exact definition is next to impossible to pin down and the dividing line is blurred, not to mention in a different place according to our own individual opinions.  I can only comment on my personal viewpoint, which is; that a train set is not ever intended to be a model of a railway in any way, and is an exercise in constructing a track layout and running model trains on it without regard being overly paid to realism, period, correct train formations, operating procedures, or realistic speeds.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and it is a fine and respectable pastime that I strongly approve of but choose not to participate in.  It is characterised by setrack, unmodified RTR locos and stock in out-of-the-box condition, and a minimalist approach to scenery.  It is, within its parameters and by definition, perfect.

 

A model railway is different because it is an attempt, whether successful or not, to recreate the operation and appearance of a real railway in a defined locality and at a defined period; the intention behind it being more important to the definition than the actual model.  It is characterised by flexible or hand-built track, a much more considered approach to scenery, and weathered or altered RTR stock, kitbuilds, or scratchbuilds.  It may be severely compressed and compromised, but as I say the intended result is the defining factor whether or not it is acheived, and as we will see it can never be fully achieved anyway.  It will involve a holistic treatment of all factors, and result in investigation, study, and research into such diverse subjects as the distance between telegraph poles, theatrical lighting and proscenia, or fencing styles.  It is a scandalously unrespectable and scurrilous pastime that I am delighted to participate in.  A serious attempt is made by the modeller to 'get it right' within the constraints of his/her budget, space, modelling ability, and prototype knowledge.  It can, within its parameters and by definition never, ever, be perfect, though it can be very good indeed...

Edited February 22 by The Johnster

[PhilH]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m surprised you need to ask:

 

- first we have a thing;

 

- then we have another thing, which is a tiny bit different from the first thing;

 

- then, to avoid confusion, especially among people who struggle a bit with ambiguity or gradation, we create a hard, defined boundary between the two things;

 

- then we arbitrarily define one thing as better, morally superior, to the other  thing;

 

- then some people who engage in the declared morally superior thing can pour scorn , derision, and later perhaps even hatred, upon those who engage in the other thing;

 

- this makes some people feel big, and others feel small, and all too often it gets taken to extremes and leads to physical as well as verbal abuse, and one day that ramps-up and someone gets killed;

 

- then there is revenge, and more killing, and eventually a war, in which huge numbers of people get killed;

 

- when enough people have been killed, and bestial cruelty unleashed, regret eventually sets in;

 

- then everyone looks at the two things, and realises that the two things actually have more features in common than differences, so they decide to call them “one thing”;

 

- return to start, and begin again.

 

 

This can cause confusion as where I come from they’re called fings.

[Nearholmer]

Doubtless we can divide into camps about that then.

[PeterStiles]

On 21/02/2024 at 17:19, 33C said:

When you start ballasting the track..

Just reading the 1979 Railway Modellers; one Railway Of The Month had unballasted track, and used the Hornby Goods Shed (currently selling as R8002).

 

I'm pretty sure they thought it was a model railway.

[33C]

6 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Just reading the 1979 Railway Modellers; one Railway Of The Month had unballasted track, and used the Hornby Goods Shed (currently selling as R8002).

 

I'm pretty sure they thought it was a model railway.

For me, a model railway, layout, train set, call it what you will, that has a look, a feel, an atmosphere, that cannot be quantified, using toy or scale elements, is all about how they are used and placed. Also, lighting can completely change a scene, and daylight cannot be beat. Just take any model you have and put it outside against a setting sun. Instantly changes it for the better, tension lock couplings or whatever! If your layout is portable, stick it on the lawn etc., take before and after photos and I bet it looks 100 times better. Just look at my cheapo loco's inside and outside. I know which I would submit to Railway Modeller!

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

We all know what we mean by train set and how a train set differs from a model railway,

 

You may do!

 

Mike.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, PhilH said:

What's realistic about a sped up clock?

 

If a real railway runs to a timetable, surely running to a timetable must be part of realism.

If we can scale distance why shouldn't we scale time too?

 

[MarkSG]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Some on here might need to buy a dictionary.

 

Toy and model have very different meanings....

 

Toy (n)

* an object for children to play with

* an object that is used by an adult for pleasure rather than for serious use

 

Model (n)

* a physical object, usually smaller than the real object, that is used to represent something

 

(From https://dictionary.cambridge.org/, irrelevant meanings excluded)

 

Those are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, models are a very common form of toy. 

[john new]

On 21/02/2024 at 15:03, MarkSG said:

 

So Pendon is a just a train set then? Because, despite the detail and fidelity of the modelling, operationally it's just a big roundy-roundy...

This is the dichotomy of the hobby - different trigger points for different people. There is no correct answer. 

 

If you are heavily in to operation then two classic layouts from the past (Norman Eagles' Sherwood Section and the Gainsborough Club's ECML layout) are model railways as is the former L&Y signal training school layout in the NRM. I guess to a scenery is the key , or closeness in accuracy to a specific location is crucial modeller these are just large train-sets/training tools as the scenery is minimalist and none of them represent  the track layouts of actual places.

 

I think @MarkSG 's point of permanence by pinning down to a board is as good a definition as any for the transition point - beyond that laying down of a marker the question becomes (for the builder) have I got satisfaction from building it/did it achieve the purpose of the build.  For the observer it is simply one of scoring for quality how you perceive it to be rated against your own personal scale of values.

 

There are an awful lot of very entertaining, extremely well built layouts that are undoubtedly model railways and currently on the exhibition circuit, but at their core is the underlying and inescapable beating heart of the roundy-roundy train set oval.  What sets them apart from the American Flyer set is the design and build quality. I think this equates to the difference between a Sunday League team and a  Premier League team, both are playing the same sport of football but only one of them will ever get the massive attendances. Both skill levels of player can be applauded for actually participating, we need to do the same in the craft skill arena - a bodger and runner of r-t-r may not have the skills of the super-expert but they are participating, hopefully, with a desire to improve over time. 

 

I have emboldened this last phrase too as I think this desire to improve your layout is also a key to it making the step progression from just running a train-set towards creating a model railway. The creation may not be great, as in the Sunday League player comparison above, but the quality pyramid will always have the widest bit at the bottom.  However much a modeller wants to be the Stan Beeson of the 21st Century there will only be a few that can achieve that pinnacle. There are a few here on RMWeb so it is obtainable but not by everybody.

 

 

Edited February 23 by john new
Corrected layout name from Trent to Sherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, PhilH said:

What's realistic about a sped up clock?

 

We scale everything else down, why not time?

 

Mind you, that's not really what branch line modellers do, it's more a case of editing out the parts of the day when nothing happened on the prototype....

 

 

Edited February 22 by Dunsignalling

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If a real railway runs to a timetable, surely running to a timetable must be part of realism.

If we can scale distance why shouldn't we scale time too?

 

18 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

We scale everything else down, why not time?

 

For those modelling in 00, we scale distances by 1:76, areas by 1:5776 (ie 1:76^2) and volumes by 1: 438,975 (ie 1:76^3).  However, we can't really scale time in the same way as we do the three physical dimensions.  Time isn't faster or slower depending on which scale you choose to model in.

 

However, whilst we can't really scale time if we want trains to run at what most would consider a realistic speed (remembering that speed = distance / time), we probably should adjust the passage of time in relation to the amount of compression that we have had to introduce when creating our model railway.  Therefore if you build a model that is a perfectly to scale section of line, then time should be normal.  However, if we've represented five actual miles in the prototype with just one scale mile of track, then there is a case for making a clock run five times faster.  However, the speed of the clock should be determined by the amount of linear compression in the model, rather than the scale of the model (ie it doesn't matter whether you're modelling in N, 00, or even in O gauge, albeit there are few O gauge layouts with a scale mile of track).

 

The problem with this is of course that we don't compress our models in a uniform manner.  The coaches are 'scale length', the platform has been compressed by maybe 10%, the station throat by 20% and the section of track between stations by 80%.  This means that the passage of time on the wristwatch of a tiny passenger on our train should not pass at a constant rate, but should pass more slowly as the train leaves the station (ie just a little faster than real time) and get progressively quicker as the train moves through the more compressed parts of the model until they reach their destination.

 

Of course, once we get to running a model railway with multiple trains, the time on the watches of all of our miniature passengers will vary depending on what train they are on!

[MyRule1]

In today's market I would answer the op question as at least £250. My more serious answer has already been covered - as soon as the owner is enthused enough to add items to what comes in the box.

 

My current set up is based on the Hornby track mat - but it is now a layout.

[The Johnster]

I operate my BLT, Cwmdimbath, to real time at realistic scale speeds as far as is practicable to the British Railways 1955 Rule Book, and (I contend) a credible working timtable based on the real 1960 Abergwynfi WTT.  BLT or not this can on occasion be quite challenging and for most of the sequence there is something that needs attention now, usually colliery shunting.  There is a significant difference in the intensity of traffic on a South Wales colliery branch to a rural pastoral idyll with four teains and a puckup goods every day; the single track simple run-around loop terminus at the real Abergwynfi handled 14 passenger trains a day in addition to the colliery clearances and empties in1960, the last getting in at 23.55…
 

When I say real time, some explanation is necessary.  I use ‘Cwmdimbath Time’, which is displayed on a battery-powered analogue clock which can be switched on and off; this means that Cwmdimbath Time can be frozen and restarted at will.  There are rules, principally that no movement of trains in any shape or form may take place while CT is frozen.  Stock mat be handled off or on the layout, but everything must be restored to the exact position it occupied when the ‘time out’ frozen session began.  I allow instantaneous passage of CT during slack periods of the day; the CT clock has no glass face protection and the hands can be set forward, but back is against the rules. 
 

As well as running at realistic speeds, allowance is made for shunters on the ground to move between locations (just because I can’t see the little people moving doesn’t mean that they don’t move about in my head), coupling with screw couplings and connecting brake & steam heating bags, brake continuity tests, guards putting tail lamps on the other end of trains, arriving passengers to clear the premises and staff to close all doors and do any mails/parcels unloading before the running around begins, engines to take water, &c. 
 

I would contend that layouts can be operated realistically to real time so long as everything is confined within a small area of Station Limits, but that problems will arise when trains have to run drastically compressed distances through sections; ‘fortunately’ most of us don’t have room for this sort of shennanigans and will never have to worry about it…

 

Let’s say we want to recreate running on the 12-mile section of the SWML section between Cardiff and Newport in 4mm scale.  The quickest booked time is conveniently 12 minutes, so the trains run at an average speed of 60mph; the line speed is 90mph but about a third of the distance is permanently speed restricted  to below 60mph.  To recreate this without condensing or stretching the time or drastically lowering the scale speed, one would need a length of 12 x 5,280ft divided by 76, that is, roughly 833feet 8inches.  Pete Waterman might have a go if he could borrow a cruise liner or a rolling mill for the purpose: I doubt if any cathedral is capable of accommodating such a layout!

Edited February 23 by The Johnster

[BachelorBoy]

When does a chemistry set become a home laboratory?

[BachelorBoy]

Bing Co-pilot's AI answer

 

Train Set:

A train set typically refers to a complete package that includes everything needed to get started with model trains. It’s designed for beginners or enthusiasts who want a simple and convenient way to experience model railroading.

 

Key features of a train set:

• Components: A train set usually includes a locomotive (engine), one or more train cars (passenger or freight), tracks, and a power supply (usually a transformer).
• Scale: Train sets come in various scales (such as HO, N, O, etc.), and the components are compatible within that specific scale.
• Ready-to-Run: Train sets are often ready-to-run out of the box. You assemble the track, connect the power, and start running the train.
• Simplicity: Train sets are straightforward and provide a basic introduction to model railroading.

Model Railway Layout:

A model railway layout is a more elaborate and customized setup. It represents a miniature world with tracks, scenery, buildings, and detailed landscapes.

 

Key features of a model railway layout:

• Customization: Unlike a train set, a layout allows you to create your own design. You can choose the track arrangement, scenery, and theme.
• Scenery and Details: Model railway layouts focus on realism. You’ll add trees, buildings, people, vehicles, and other details to create a lifelike environment.
• Wiring and Electronics: Layouts involve more complex wiring, including switches, signals, and control systems. Some layouts even have automated features.
• Scale Modeling: Modelers often strive for accuracy in scale and proportions. They may weather train cars, paint structures, and add intricate details.
• Long-Term Project: Building a model railway layout is an ongoing project that evolves over time. It’s a hobby that allows creativity and continuous improvement.

In summary, a train set is a beginner-friendly package, while a model railway layout is a personalized and artistic endeavor that captures the essence of railroads in miniature. 🚂🌲🏢

[Bloodnok]

This one is fascinating, and definitely has legs :).

The problem is everyone tries to look at the thing to make a distinction. But that's not where the distinction is.

It's like the difference between a miniature railway and a narrow gauge railway.

Let's say you have a railway with rails less than 750mm apart, which runs for more than 10 miles, and has multiple stations in different towns or villages. It uses historic steam locos to haul mostly tourists. While it is possible to travel between different towns using the railway and a few people do that, the vast majority of visitors treat the line as a destination, and will return to their starting location before leaving the railway.

That description can describe both miniature railways and narrow gauge railways. The difference is not in what they do, but in how they are designed. The RH&DR fits the above description, as does the WHR -- but one is clearly a miniature railway, and the other is clearly a narrow gauge railway.

The difference is the RH&DR was intentionally designed to look like a small scale version of a bigger railway, whereas the WHR was not.

So where is the line between a trainset and a model railway?

The key comes from the word 'model'. It's a very similar distinction to the miniature railway vs narrow gauge railway example above. It's not in the mechanics of what is going on, but in the intentions of the person or people creating it.

If the design is attempting to represent a scene on a larger railway in miniature, then it's a model railway.
If there is no consideration of representing a scene on a larger railway, then it's a train set.

The distinction between a scenery diorama and a model railway has also been raised. You can make a scenery diorama that includes a railway. If the inclusion of railway elements is not the primary focus of the scene, then it's a scenery diorama. Even if the railway works. However, when the railway is the primary focus and the purpose behind building the scene, that's when it becomes a model railway.

[Dunsignalling]

 

A model railway can instantly become a train set, and equally immediately revert to being a model railway, simply by invoking and subsequently cancelling the operation of "Rule One".

 

A train set can be developed into a model railway, but it takes a lot more work! 😊

 

John

 

 

 

 

[Dagworth]

While they are subject to import duty they are toys

When they are in your possession they are models

 

Andi

 

Edited February 23 by Dagworth
typing

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

We scale everything else down, why not time?

 

Mind you, that's not really what branch line modellers do, it's more a case of editing out the parts of the day when nothing happened on the prototype....

 

 

Because we're not interested in watching nowt happening.

 

Editing out large parts of the distance between two stations is something else modellers do. 

 

Because we're not interested in miles and miles of b*ggerall.

[luke_stevens]

12 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

When does a chemistry set become a home laboratory?

 

When your name is "Heisenberg"?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_Bad

 

Luke

[Hibelroad]

I would think that a train set becomes a model railway when the owner starts to take an interest in it as a model rather than it being just another toy. However ownership of a train set is not the only route into the world of railway modelling. 

[Pacific231G]

19 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

 

Of course, once we get to running a model railway with multiple trains, the time on the watches of all of our miniature passengers will vary depending on what train they are on!

You mean that model railway time is relative- (as of course is time in the full size world though the differences are far too small to notice unless you're running a GPS system.  On the Underground, time is really distance so, when the indicator says the next train is three minutes away, it's really telling you where it is not when it is.  We can of course apply that principle to our railways so, when the 10.25 train arrives then the time is 10.25 (I can think of a few TOCs who'd probably like that arrangement) 

It's quite interesting to  look at model railways before the war where their rolling stock was often very crude by our standards and would certainly be seen as toys now but they were attempting to model the actual operation of the railway far more authentically than most fine scale layouts would today with sometimes fully interlocked signalling.

This is a bit like asking whether my Meccano Set was a toy (I played with it so it was) or an engineering modelling system (I designed and built all sorts of gearboxes with it and Sir Francis Chichester used it to figure out the mechanics of the self steering gear he sued for long solo voyages, so it was that too) 

 

We tend to use the term "train set" to mean a setup of model trains that bears no real relationship to the prototype beyond the rolling stock itself. A "train-set" is though simply a way of providing the basic elements needed to run model trains in a single boxed purchase. That can be used just to run trains round and round on the table but it can equally be a convenient and affordable way to get started with  a model railway. 

 

I think the truth is that, as with photography and the stage, it's not what's being used to pursue the activity that matters (I known an award winning photographer who only uses an iPhone)  but rather the attitude of the person carrying out the activity and there's never going to be a defined boundary between them. Between the school nativity play and the Royal Shakespeare Company there's a ginormous difference but that difference is made up of a series of small steps none of which constitutes a definable boundary.  

Edited February 23 by Pacific231G

[AndrueC]

It's not a distinction I'd used to denigrate someone's efforts but I would consider anything that is normally kept stored in a cupboard and only comes out for special occasions is a trainset. Also (or perhaps because of that) I would say that anything anyone spends considerable amounts of time working on is a model railway.

 

Pulling bits of track out of a box and clipping them together then calling it good is a trainset 🙂

Edited February 23 by AndrueC

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I would think that a train set becomes a model railway when the owner starts to take an interest in it as a model rather than it being just another toy. However ownership of a train set is not the only route into the world of railway modelling. 

 

Sometimes it works the other way as well. I've bought train sets as I wanted the stock in them!

 

Particularly the Bachmann ones where a few of the locos were exclusive to the train sets so it was the only way to get them.

 

 

Jason