Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[faulcon1]

There is more chance of it finding kestrel innfull working order than having a colliery, they are extinct

Yes but on a preserved railway a colliery doesn't have to be extinct unless of course your railway is modeled as of the 23rd of July 2017 at 2.15pm.

[faulcon1]

My fireman would get a right royal rollicking if he were to use his iphone for anything other than an emergency whilst on my footplate...

Well I was at the Ffestiniog Railway Victorian Weekend and a fireman there was using his iphone on the footplate whilst the loco was standing in a station. In fact in his "Victorian Costume" one could quite clearly see the outline of his iphone in his left trouser pocket. It was too thin to be a tobacco tin. 

There was also a lady "playing" a squeeze box only her fingers weren't actually pressing any of the buttons on the battery operated squeeze box. She was decked out in full Victorian costume and in the morning she strode slowly up and down the platform at Portmadoc. In the afternoon she strode up to the platform end where the Welsh Highland trains stop and then quickened her pace on the return to the main station building. I think either she was busting a for a pee and knew it would take a good ten minutes to get out of her Victorian dress to sit on the loo or the batteries in her fake squeeze box were about to expire and she'd look a right prat as the music slowly died away.

Edited December 21, 2017 by faulcon1

[faulcon1]

And I thought I was a cynic...

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.

[PatB]

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.

 

Indeed, Sir Humphrey .

[DCB]

Preserved railways circa 2007 should be ideal model subjects, you just need a red 6 coach Mk1 rake and a Two Tone one, and about 50 locos.   Everything from a 14XX to a 9Fto a class 50 or 14 pulls the same trains backward and forward, maybe with a token 8 wagon train of empty wagons on Gala days.    V2, Lord Nelson, 92220, 1420, I saw them all at Toddington on the GWR when my son was small.   For full realism rows and rows of rusting NSE Mk1s and dying diesels can be added to give a realistic air of dereliction but hey this is escapism right?   Lets imagine most of those rusting hulks in bits around the shed yard will run again.  (V2 RIP)

Edited December 21, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Jwnewall]

I knew my layout the 'Kingbarrow Railway Centre' was going to be on here but I forgot to look! thanks for all the nice comments.

 

It has been about 2 months since the exhibition and i've still got to take the stock out of the box, thats how exhausted I was from the year of building! There's plenty more to do, with detailing the backboard and left side of the layout.

 

For a whole range of pictures please visit my RMWeb thread called, Kingbarrow Railway Centre, link below!

 

I've often justified my reasoning for a heritage layout to be 'People often model their childhoods, either a GWR terminus or a north London junction, however my childhood was holidays to Butlins in Minehead and you know what's also there!'. I also use 'I want it as prototypical as possible, not a Eurostar on a branchline' as it puts people off the heritage idea if people use heritage as an excuse to run anything, on the most basic Hornby trackplan layout.

[The Johnster]

There is of course nowt wrong with running anything, on a Hornby trackplan layout, but I would agree that attempting to justify it to 'better' modellers by invoking preservation is wrong, on the part both of this layout's owner and the 'better' modellers whose condemnation has led him to do this.  Don't kowtow to the ba&^@ds; run your railway your way and sod 'em all!

 

One of the problems I would have with a freelance 'preservation/heritage' layout is that there are absolutely no models of preserved locos or coaches available that are not located somewhere else on a real preserved railway, or Didcot/Tyseley/Carnforth centre, or the NRM.  One is therefore restricted to prototypes that were never preserved, and this would simply not do for me!  I have to have a plausible back story to justify my model to myself, and this is pushing things too far, but only for me!

 

But if you are running your railway in a reasonably prototypical way, or at least trying to to the best of your knowledge, skill, and ability even on a train set oval, then to my mind you are a railway modeller, one of us, and I salute you, sir or madam, and commend your efforts to one and all...

 

One of us, one of us...

[andyram]

One of the problems I would have with a freelance 'preservation/heritage' layout is that there are absolutely no models of preserved locos or coaches available that are not located somewhere else on a real preserved railway, or Didcot/Tyseley/Carnforth centre, or the NRM.  One is therefore restricted to prototypes that were never preserved, and this would simply not do for me!  I have to have a plausible back story to justify my model to myself, and this is pushing things too far..

 

This is an interesting point and, I suppose, is very much down to personal preference. However it is worth remembering that steam locomotives are often moved around different preservation sites and many lines rely heavily on hired in motive power. Two lines local to me spring to mind with the Midland Railway at Butterley relying on the hired in Ex GWR tank 5619 at present. A much newer preservation scheme, the Ecclesbourne Valley, also relies on hired in locos for any steam services it chooses to run. The GC has loaned 78019 in the past and last summer the Jinty 47406 made a visit for the summer season. It is to return again next year. With this in mind, there is no reason why a fictional, modelled, preserved line should not be in a similar situation. That would give the modeller license to run any loco, carrying a number of a preserved example.

[griffgriff]

Preserved railways have loco shortages too. The GC suffered badly a few years back and had to rely on several lends and borrows. This is a situation a modeller could replicate if they so wished.

 

Griff

[Northmoor]

Preserved railways circa 2007 should be ideal model subjects, you just need a red 6 coach Mk1 rake and a Two Tone one, and about 50 locos.   Everything from a 14XX to a 9Fto a class 50 or 14 pulls the same trains backward and forward, maybe with a token 8 wagon train of empty wagons on Gala days.    V2, Lord Nelson, 92220, 1420, I saw them all at Toddington on the GWR when my son was small.   For full realism rows and rows of rusting NSE Mk1s and dying diesels can be added to give a realistic air of dereliction but hey this is escapism right?   Lets imagine most of those rusting hulks in bits around the shed yard will run again.  (V2 RIP)

Personally I like the idea of modelling an imaginary preserved railway, but about 20-25 years before this.

 

In the 1980s there were a number of railways already opened but still in their infancy, some still opening extensions (most of the established railways are now "finished" in that sense) so you could have the line going off to your wall, still being cleared of vegetation and track laid.  Ex-BR locos were still leaving Barry scrapyard in numbers, although my photos of that time show the terrible condition most were in; this would be a challenge to replicate well.  If you want to only stretch history a little, note that three of the four steam locos scrapped at Barry in 1973 and 1980 (3817, 76080, 4156 and 92085), can be done with Dapol/Airfix kits....

 

Edit: You mention above a couple of National Collection locos which are no longer steamed (Green Arrow and Evening Star) but which can be run in my 1980s scenario.  You can add others like the LMS Compound, City of Truro, LNWR "Hardwicke" etc.

 

Diesels didn't start to appear in any numbers at preserved lines until the late-80s, so the modeller has to be selective with what to include. However, my Rule One loco would be LMS 10000.

 

Modelling a real closed line as if it were preserved, offers some interesting prototypes with the number of freight lines closed in the late 70s-early 80s.  This is what created the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire railway, so there are precedents.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Northmoor

[PatB]

The last few posts do raise the potentially interesting approach of modelling a preserved line on which operate locos which, in the real world, were not preserved but which, perhaps, could or should have been. Or locos which have survived but only in stuffed and mounted form. As Johnster notes, though, each would need a plausible backstory or the whole thing could just turn into another excuse to run anything. For myself, I think I'd have to limit it to prototypes which did survive in service to the early preservation era but which, for one reason or another, were not saved. As I'm rather partial to workaday freight locos I could see there being plenty of scope.

[Chris M]

Personally I like the idea of modelling an imaginary preserved railway, but about 20-25 years before this.

 

In the 1980s there were a number of railways already opened but still in their infancy, some still opening extensions (most of the established railways are now "finished" in that sense) so you could have the line going off to your wall, still being cleared of vegetation and track laid.  Ex-BR locos were still leaving Barry scrapyard in numbers, although my photos of that time show the terrible condition most were in; this would be a challenge to replicate well.  If you want to only stretch history a little, note that three of the four steam locos scrapped at Barry in 1973 and 1980 (3817, 76080, 4156 and 92085), can be done with Dapol/Airfix kits....

 

Diesels didn't start to appear in any numbers at preserved lines until the late-80s, so the modeller has to be selective with what to include. However, my Rule One loco would be LMS 10000.

 

Modelling a real closed line as if it were preserved, offers some interesting prototypes with the number of freight lines closed in the late 70s-early 80s.  This is what created the Gloucestershire-Warwickshire railway, so there are precedents.

Isn’t an LMS 10000 under construction at the moment?

[Chris M]

I could get into modelling a preserved railway. This is my normally circa 1960 branch line running only preserved locos. Locos featured are Western Champion, 13029, Foxcote Manor, 46521, 46443, 3822 and 6412.

 

 

 

 

[ba14eagle]

I must admit I've not read every post from the start of this thread, but here goes. 

I've often been tempted to build a layout of a fictional preserved railway and, unashamedly, used it as an excuse to run whatever I liked   In fact, recent expansion of my rolling stock fleet, has been with this in mind - I have, until recently, been focussed on running locos and train formations that would have been seen in a narrow time frame - basically Summer of 1986 to Spring 1987 - my golden years of spotting / bashing - and before those nasty "sector" colours took over  but am now rebelling and collecting anything from the steam era, that takes my fancy. Ideas at the top of my list include locations such as Wellow (S&D) or Devizes (GWR).

 

The other thing is, do the arguments used against the idea of modelling a fictional preserved line similarly apply to modelling a location on a closed line, as if it had avoided the beeching axe and still been open now? The same locations could still fit the bill.     

[JDW]

I don't think so - I think the idea of either assuming that the route didn't close and modelling or representing it as it might be, or assuming that the line closed and has been reopened as a preserved line is fine, so long as that's what you set out to do. 

I think the thing that grates with most people is using "its a preserved line" to justify anything and call it a model, rather than say "its my trainset and I'll run what I like".  The difference, sorry to be blunt, is that one is a "model" and the other is a "train set".  Of course, we could get into an equally long debate about where one stops and the other starts, and "train set" isn't meant as a negative term in this context.  For example: on the latter, a Hornby Smokey Joe with a pair of "shorty" Intercity Mk3s is fine, its a train set, you can do as you like.  On the former, as a "proper" model following prototype practice, an 0-4-0 steam loco couldn't work with air-braked Mk3s.  

At the end of the day, so long as you're happy, what I call your layout doesn't matter if you enjoy it!

[hayfield]

In one way you might have hit the nail on the head, one is a "model" and the other is a "train set".. But then how many people who model a specific location and keep to running trains to the original timetable,with the correct stock. Most layouts would be totally boring to both run and watch

 

To expand your thought process, most model railways out there are train sets, as they embellish the stock used on the layout to increase the operating potential

 

On the other hand is this not a hobby which we are supposed to enjoy, I actually enjoy the building side of the hobby, which is by definition model making. A preserved line allows me to run my models and explains the over representative collection of locos, plus variations in livery and stock visiting from other regions.

 

In my humble opinion many a fine layout has been spoilt by using the wrong scale track with the wrong type of rail. I have not even mentioned gauge yet. On the other hand does it really matter?  Its a hobby just take pleasure in what you are doing

[Robin Brasher]

If you were modelling today's Winter warm up on the Swanage Railway you could run:

 

Ivatt 2-6-2T 41312 with a rake of  green BR Mk1s

T9 4-4-0 30120 with a mixed rake of green BRMk1s and Bulleid coaches.

U class 31806 with a rake of green BR Mk1s

BR green class 33 diesel with a freight train including a crimson parcels van and a grey SR pill box brake van

 

and various combinations of these.

 

Only the U class is not available ready to run and most people are fooled by a renumbered N class. Also strictly speaking not all the Mk1s are available ready to run and Bachmann's Bulleid coaches represent a later version with larger ventilated windows.

 

It seems enough to entertain any visitors for half an hour. We also get the occasional special. My favourite was Princess Elizabeth with a rake of  maroon West Coast Mainline coaches tailed by a diesel. My first Tri-ang locomotive was Princess Elizabeth. I never imagined that I could run that on a Southern branch line without invoking rule 1.

[whart57]

In my humble opinion many a fine layout has been spoilt by using the wrong scale track with the wrong type of rail. I have not even mentioned gauge yet.

 

And many a layout has not fulfilled its potential because of an obsession with perfect scale track and perfect representations of rail.

 

My attitude has always been that a layout is a piece of theatre, and, as Shakespeare hinted at in the prologue to Henry V, you can't fit all of real life into a theatre. The skill is in making the audience believe you have.

 

Of course these days we have cinema and TV, but film makers control what you see through their control of the camera. That's why so many of the layouts that look so good in MRJ disappoint when seen in the flesh. All that fine scale perfection looks great through the lens of a camera, not so great when it is viewed from angles the builder didn't optimise.

[hayfield]

And many a layout has not fulfilled its potential because of an obsession with perfect scale track and perfect representations of rail.

 

My attitude has always been that a layout is a piece of theatre, and, as Shakespeare hinted at in the prologue to Henry V, you can't fit all of real life into a theatre. The skill is in making the audience believe you have.

 

Of course these days we have cinema and TV, but film makers control what you see through their control of the camera. That's why so many of the layouts that look so good in MRJ disappoint when seen in the flesh. All that fine scale perfection looks great through the lens of a camera, not so great when it is viewed from angles the builder didn't optimise.

 

Any form of obsession in railway modelling tends to never reach completion, and you are correct in that a layout is as good as its weakest link and the best ones are where the standard of modelling is consistent in every area.

 

To have decent trackwork ,you neither have to be skilled or obsessive. To lay a yard of flexitrack with bullhead rail and sleepers in the correct scale is just as easy as to lay flexitrack with flatbottom rail in the wrong scale. Despite what is said, anyone who has the ability to build a layout to a constant high standard over all disciplines in my opinion has both the ability and time to build their own turnouts and crossings. But happy that others think differently. As for gauge I can fully understand why some prefer to stay with 00 gauge.

[Chris M]

Any form of obsession in railway modelling tends to never reach completion, and you are correct in that a layout is as good as its weakest link and the best ones are where the standard of modelling is consistent in every area.

 

To have decent trackwork ,you neither have to be skilled or obsessive. To lay a yard of flexitrack with bullhead rail and sleepers in the correct scale is just as easy as to lay flexitrack with flatbottom rail in the wrong scale. Despite what is said, anyone who has the ability to build a layout to a constant high standard over all disciplines in my opinion has both the ability and time to build their own turnouts and crossings. But happy that others think differently. As for gauge I can fully understand why some prefer to stay with 00 gauge.

 

I built some SMP points back in the eighties but have now decided that life is too short. We all have different views and that's what makes life interesting.

[hayfield]

I built some SMP points back in the eighties but have now decided that life is too short. We all have different views and that's what makes life interesting.

 

 

So did I and I made an awful job building them mainly due to not buying any gauges and lack of any form of tutorial. But with modern materials the time it takes to build a loco or coach I can have a dozen or so chaired turnouts built. But as you say each to their own.

 

To make you smile my EM gauge chaired track will have a K's pannier wobbling on it 

[toffee]

Today's modeller of the Bo'ness railway can have 88005 covered in snow quite legitimately!

[coachmann]

............... and you are correct in that a layout is as good as its weakest link and the best ones are where the standard of modelling is consistent in every area.

If a consistent standard of modelling produced the best layouts, they would all be trainsets on the family 8' X 4' using Hornby settrack, Hornby ready to plonk buildings, Hornby scenic's and a Hornby 5 inch long tunnel, Hornby signals and Hornby locos and rolling stock tipped straight onto the layout out of their boxes.  

 

A bit of Xmas jest...

[Robin Brasher]

My first N gauge layout was a 2' x 3'10" model of Corfe Viaduct with Challow Hill cutting and a backscene of the castle with a couple of hidden sidings. It was easy to take to exhibitions on the back seat of my Ford Escort. Visitors liked watching the trains go by and saw the model as something they could easily make at home which would not take too much space.

 

Since then the model railway has got a tiny bit out of hand. My club's latest 0 gauge model of the Swanage Railway occupies the first floor of a barn which is 120' long. Although we had it working on the first day we have nearly been there three years and there is still a lot of work to do before it is good enough to exhibit to the public. The idea is for people to have a cream tea in the manor and then look at the layout. There are a lot of health and safety issues to consider as well.

 

The digital layout runs well and the well made plywood baseboards provide a solid foundation for a good layout.

[faulcon1]

In modeling a preserved railway one could always compress a location. In fact they maybe mandatory as trying to model say Horsted Keynes or Loughborough would result in a very large model with no room to expand. One bloke who did model a real location modeled Llandudno Junction. But he compressed the station area but it is still instantly recognisable as Llandudno Junction. He also modeled Llandudno itself and that was in the remains of a built in wardrobe. He modeled the Conwy bridge complete with castellated end although his castellated end owed more to the cardboard tubes from toilet rolls. The Conwy bridge formed a scenic break to his storage sidings but was still instantly recognisable. He did model Deganwy with it's signal box perhaps one of the very few signal boxes that never controlled a signal in it's life.

 

For those whom steam holds little to no interest they could have small diesels being run on an embryonic steam line with the steam locos as rusting hulks in sidings awaiting restoration. For those who like steam, an embryonic line may see small steam locos with nothing bigger than an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 tank loco on one or two coaches. Many a current preserved railways first steam loco wasn't a Bullied pacific, GWR Hall or Black 5. It was often a small industrial steam loco on one or two coaches. One could even go back further and not have coaches but a number of BR brake vans for people to ride in. Look at railway touring clubs that visited branch lines that had lost their passenger services years before and an 0-6-0 tank hauling open wagons for people to ride in. Modern H&S wasn't around in those days. Engine sheds with boarded up windows their lines no longer connected to the branch line and long grass everywhere.

You could even model a line that was closed before Beeching and lines were closed pre Beeching in the fifties. Perhaps just a platform with temporary prefab buildings, a short length of running line ending at thick vegetation. Ideal for those who don't have a huge amount of space at their disposal.

 

Also just don't look at a preserved station look at the storage areas. On a recent UK holiday I visited a railway in Derbyshire. There were BR diesels stored in the open in various liveries, and a cab for a diesel just sitting on the ground. There was a 2-8-0 tank loco once owned or still owned by a famous person stored in the open and slowly succumbing to the weather. Industrial steam locos being overhauled in the open air. There were even parts for a station footbridge among the long grass. What did look odd was the chassis for an industrial steam loco with 6 traction motors lined up in front of it. There was a Mk1 coach with one end resting on a lot of timber supports whilst it's bogie received some attention and all in the open air.

The Dapol/Airfix loco kits could not only represent rusting hulks from the scrapyard but locos beginning their long path to restoration by painting a loco in red oxide. Many a steam loco was first restored in real life out in the open. As for diesel locos waiting to be restored they can be old Lima models in faded liveries or even covered in graffiti. The same for wagons or coaches picked up from the "bits and pieces" boxes in model shops.

Many a preservation society couldn't afford an expensive and sophisticated security system to protect their assets. Often it was just a fence and hope for the best.