Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[hayfield]

It all depends on what you are trying to achieve with your modelling, if you are trying to copy a preserved line, then fine build/buy stock which is on the line. 

 

There is also another way making a fictitious layout based on either a preserved line or in the style of a preserved line. For those who have a wide interest in stock from several regions its the perfect solution

Edited November 25, 2017 by hayfield

[Robin Brasher]

At the barn at Godlingston Manor in Swanage we have not worried about modelling a preserved railway being unpopular. Our members have been busy building an 0 gauge model based on the Swanage Railway. Progress includes building the stone walls of Swanage Station and ballasting the track at Corfe Castle and Harmans Cross. The members have also worked out a preserved railway timetable with tokens for each train.

 

Modelling the locomotives and rolling stock is not as easy in 0 gauge as it is in N gauge which is one of the reasons that the layout is based on the Swanage Railway and is not a model of the preserved Swanage Railway. We have also modelled the goods sidings at Corfe and Swanage as they were at their most extensive to give more interesting operation.

[RJS1977]

Also, aside from the 'big engine' railways, many of the smaller lines use industrial locos which may not be available ready to run. I've been fairly fortunate with 'Wallingford' in that at least 6430 (semi-regular visitor), the 08s (resident), City of Truro, Cumbria and Martello (other visitors) are/were available ready to run, but most of the other locos I'm aware of having visited (or in one case being resident) aren't so easy to obtain:

 

* 'Walrus' - ex-Guinness Hibberd (mine built around a Mainline 03 chassis with the centre wheels removed).

* 'Ivor' - much modified Peckett saddle tank (mine converted from a Hornby 'Pug').

* 'Birkinhead'

* 'Northern Gas Board No 1' - Peckett W6

* 'Sir Gomer'

 

And several others I can't think of right now. There was a Barclay 0-4-0ST at one time (Hattons) but I'm not sure what else.

 

It's a shame as I've often thought it would be nice for Hornby to do train sets in conjunction with preserved lines (couple of Mk1 coaches and a suitable industrial loco), though Hornby's insistence on minimum runs of 500 in a particular livery doesn't help (Dapol will do wagons in runs of 100).

Edited November 11, 2017 by RJS1977

[RJS1977]

It's worth mentioning though that it's only standard gauge preserved lines which are unpopular. Plenty of models of the Ffestiniog and the Talyllyn (or pastiches of them) and even one of the Welsh Highland.

 

Even then, though, plenty of other NG preserved railways which haven't been modelled (as far as I know).

[Nearholmer]

Robin

 

Is Goglinston open for public viewing of the layout?

 

We’re are likely to go camping in the area again, and last time we’re too busy to find out.

 

Kevin

[Robin Brasher]

Robin

 

Is Goglinston open for public viewing of the layout?

 

We’re are likely to go camping in the area again, and last time we’re too busy to find out.

 

Kevin

Kevin,

 

Yes it is open for public viewing. Please see http://www.greenwoodmodelrailwayproducts.co.uk and Purbeck Model Railway Group - Swanage Trains https://www.shamrocktrains.com/event/purbeck-model-railway-group-11-17/

 

I would advise you to come to one of our Wednesday evening meetings as our monthly Friday evening running session seems to fluctuate from month to month.

 

Robin

[faulcon1]

On a recent visit to the Llangollen railway I asked them what happened to the idea of wanting to run trains to Corwen for school children. I got told that idea has been dropped. They said we're saddled with a 25mph speed limit and the main road running nearby is mostly 60mph. They said we just can't compete. I wonder what the speed limit used to be on that line in BR days.

 

I think that the preserved railways offer a lot of modeling potential. For one thing they are there for people to see. Not old silent 16mm footage of often dubious quality with the colour of the film not right because of it's age. One can have themes like the preserved railways do like the popular wartime weekends or end of steam events. The running of the big four locos all in one place doesn't jar ones senses mixed in together with diesels in original livery or BR blue. Even in the days of BR they used to send DMU's or Pacers to run at diesel galas. I think modeling the preserved railway scene is almost a case of anything goes and many modellers have a large and varied collection making modeling a preserved railway an enjoyable experience.

Sure the locos you may have didn't make it into preservation but then you can use modellers license or you can go and change the names and numbers. There was a bloke in the US filming a large indoor HO layout and asking what period was modeled. He was told the late 1950's to early 1960's. He then asked how do you explain a GE Dash 9 and was told that's modellers license.     

[The Johnster]

The point about the 25mph LRO speed limit is a good one.  Some of the preserved lines were run at surprisingly high line speeds under BR ownership; the SVR, IIRC, was a 70mph route.  The Mid Hants probably featured some pretty fast running as well, and the Great Central is of course a full on main line in anybody's language...

[Steamport Southport]

On a recent visit to the Llangollen railway I asked them what happened to the idea of wanting to run trains to Corwen for school children. I got told that idea has been dropped. They said we're saddled with a 25mph speed limit and the main road running nearby is mostly 60mph. They said we just can't compete. I wonder what the speed limit used to be on that line in BR days.

 

 

I believe it was mainly down to lack of funding from the Assembly. Quite understandable in the circumstances.

 

The plan was to extend back to Ruabon and run commuter trains from Ruabon to Corwen using the DMUs, but with the current economic climate then it's just not feasible.

 

 

 

Jason

[Robin Brasher]

Modelling a structure like Corfe Viaduct on the Swanage Railway enables you to run trains dating from LSWR days through to the Southern to British Railways and on to a preserved railway simply by changing the locomotives and rolling stock.

 

As you can see we have had some fun at the barn at Godlingston Manor building a model of Corfe Viaduct. The model is a wooden structure covered with scribed Das modelling clay. The wooden frame took less than a week to make but sanding down the Das and scribing the stones has taken nearly three years and the end is not in sight yet. Until the stone viaduct is complete and painted we cannot go on to ballast the track or complete the scenery as the white clay dust and grey paint will spill out onto them.

[Northmoor]

I believe it was mainly down to lack of funding from the Assembly. Quite understandable in the circumstances.

 

The plan was to extend back to Ruabon and run commuter trains from Ruabon to Corwen using the DMUs, but with the current economic climate then it's just not feasible.

 

 

 

Jason

 

It's unlikely to be feasible whatever the economic climate.  25mph limit or not (and an LRO didn't HAVE to be 25mph, it could be any speed you wanted so long as you could demonstrate safe operation), commuter/school services would fall down because unless the school is right next to the station, you will still have to provide road transport at the end of the line.  To guarantee the availability of staff to operate the service everyday, without fail, you will probably need to pay those staff; realistically that is going to cost you over £100k pa.

 

There is a reason for most of the rural line closures in the Beeching era and it wasn't some grand conspiracy.  They were just a very inefficient way of carrying the limited traffic on offer. And whisper it - for today's school service a full bus is actually a very fuel-efficient vehicle (certainly more so than a 50-60 year old DMU).

[Steamport Southport]

It's unlikely to be feasible whatever the economic climate.  25mph limit or not (and an LRO didn't HAVE to be 25mph, it could be any speed you wanted so long as you could demonstrate safe operation), commuter/school services would fall down because unless the school is right next to the station, you will still have to provide road transport at the end of the line.  To guarantee the availability of staff to operate the service everyday, without fail, you will probably need to pay those staff; realistically that is going to cost you over £100k pa.

 

There is a reason for most of the rural line closures in the Beeching era and it wasn't some grand conspiracy.  They were just a very inefficient way of carrying the limited traffic on offer. And whisper it - for today's school service a full bus is actually a very fuel-efficient vehicle (certainly more so than a 50-60 year old DMU).

 

I meant the funding to reopen eastwards to Ruabon and westwards on to Bala. In the same way that the Waverley Route has been reopened.

 

The Welsh Assembly was very interested in it before the recession happened.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

Another one will soon start emerging, as I have said it will be based on Bodmin General, the track plan developed to what I require plus buildings from either whats available it kit or RTR and built to EM gauge

 

We moved house 18 mths ago and the initial plan was to banish the railway to a purpose built shed, this changed as the cost of incorporating the railway room into the house was much the same, whilst at the same time both improving the new family room, giving better security and saving on heating costs. The room consists of most of the old (tiny) kitchen and part of the wraparound extension. It was plastered last week, and I am now finishing off the floor to the new part

 

At the moment being used for DIY jobs and storage until the new flooring in the main area goes down in 7 days time. The old kitchen cabinets will go down the side for storage and a support for the layouts boards. Giving a 16' run into a 6'  (portable) fiddle yard

 

 

Bit of a mess which will tidy up once the Cabinets and cupboards are fitted, L shaped work bench at the far end and right hand side of the new part (after the pillar) 

[faulcon1]

However in modelling a preserved line there are one thing that I've never seen available. The figure of a fireman casually leaning out of a cab of a black 5 using his iphone. In a sense modelling a preserved line is an exercise in modelling two eras in the same area. The town scenes are all bang up to date with modern shops or shopping complexes, big super markets, modern cars on modern roadways and modern urban housing or older housing with no front garden as it's been bitumened over for somewhere to park the cars. Then you have the preserved railway with it's traditional signaling or early colour lights but goods sheds given over to other uses such as the lines permanent way group or demolished altogether to make room for more parking.

Yes the steam locos are highly polished and the coaching stock is clean but only to a point. The bogies and the under frame are usually quite dirty. Of course your preserved line may have a colliery an oil depot or a dairy still in business on it and sending their coal or milk and cream out by rail and oil in by rail. The passenger side can be purely tourists but the freight side helps to keep the preserved railway's books well and truly in the black. One can use any excuse such as road transportation becoming too expensive for a dairy. The line was only maintained to the colliery or the oil depot from the junction but now the preserved railway runs the trains to the exchange sidings or the mainline railway operator has running rights to the colliery, dairy or oil depot which means that a class 66 runs on the preserved railway.

You don't have to model a preserved railway right down to every last rivet. But you can take elements of the preserved railway and incorporate those into your model. Heljan made three diesel locos that didn't make it to preservation in the shape of Lion, Falcon and Kestrel. Your line could be lucky and have all three surviving into preservation. Your 4mm population and train enthusiast photographers certainly won't complain.

You can still run demonstration freights and use modern freight wagons for the colliery and dairy although one would have to use modern bogie tank wagons designated to milk traffic or oil traffic.

Some people model a railway set in the era of the big four. For others it's the early BR years in the 50's, others still the change over era from steam to diesel or the BR blue era or sectorisation. A right up to date railway together with a preserved railway adds another dimension and it's the owners choice which is the more prominent. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by faulcon1

[russ p]

There is more chance of it finding kestrel innfull working order than having a colliery, they are extinct

[Steamport Southport]

But what is the definition of a colliery?

 

There are quite a few open cast mines (26 according to wiki) and there are still a few mines that have intact pit head gear, mostly now museums.

 

Fred Dibnah even had one in his back yard.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[PhilH]

However in modelling a preserved line there are one thing that I've never seen available. The figure of a fireman casually leaning out of a cab of a black 5 using his iphone.

 

My fireman would get a right royal rollicking if he were to use his iphone for anything other than an emergency whilst on my footplate...

[Jack P]

Some people model a railway set in the era of the big four. For others it's the early BR years in the 50's, others still the change over era from steam to diesel or the BR blue era or sectorisation. A right up to date railway together with a preserved railway adds another dimension and it's the owners choice which is the more prominent. 

 

I think this probably sums it up nicely. I was actually going to say that perhaps the preserved steam environment isn't quite what someone may be trying to model if their chosen period is late 1950's, but everyones aim is different. 

[russ p]

But what is the definition of a colliery?

 

There are quite a few open cast mines (26 according to wiki) and there are still a few mines that have intact pit head gear, mostly now museums.

 

Fred Dibnah even had one in his back yard.

 

 

 

 

Jason

I think of a colliery as a coal mine where coal is mined from underground rather than quarried as in an opencast, and other than some free mines in the Forest of Dene this time of mine is currently extinct in the UK apart from a couple of museums

There are two which may open in the near future one at crofton in Yorkshire which ironically sees heritage railways as one of its customers and a reopened Haig pit at Whitehaven

[Edwardian]

I would offer the thought that there are not good or bad layout subjects, but some layouts are more successful than others.  A preserved line is just as capable of yielding an excellent layout as any other layout subject.  I am impressed with the Swanage project above, and think that the Bluebell Model Railway, featured on RMWeb, is a very good theme and an excellent layout.

 

I think Bloodnok made a very good point back in 2010; to produce a prototypical layout of a preserved subject requires just as much thought, research and modelling as a prototypical layout based on any part of the national network in a contemporary or historic setting.

 

Such attempts seem rare, and, as Bloodnok suggested, may be distinguished from the more "trainset" layouts, where I think a preserved element is a useful pretext.  Whether it is a necessary pretext is another matter. Over on the Hattons P Class topic, I asked how people ran some of these gorgeously liveried pre-Grouping locos, very often produced in "as preserved", as opposed to "in service" condition.  I gained the impression that people simply ran them because they liked them, and I don't think they necessarily felt the need to explain or justify this by reference to some preservation line; they just wanted to run what they wanted to run.  A very refreshing attitude, I found!

 

I think this is the true glory of the "trainset" layout - and I wish I could think of a better term for such layouts, because "trainset" sounds pejorative, and I don't at all mean it in that way - the joy of running model trains in an operationally and visually entertaining way, unhampered by the need to limit what stock you run, or adhere to certain limiting track arrangements or prototype practices, or the need to weather etc.

 

For those who want a more prototypical approach, be the subject a prototype location or one that did not exist but where the model follows prototype practice, why are preserved subjects relatively rare?

 

I suggest that is because most modellers want to recreate something they remember (the nostalgia trip), or, like me, something that they could never have seen, but wish to realise in miniature (the historical perspective).  A preserved subject strikes me as a second-hand experience; interpreting in miniature others' full-size interpretation of past railways, remembered or historic, with all the compromises, inconsistencies and anachronisms that the preserved scene necessarily entails. I cannot say exactly why, but that exercise has never really appealed to me or seemed to be potentially satisfying.  But, for those to whom it does appeal, what a rich and diverse subject from which to create a model railway!  

[JDW]

I think your last paragraph makes a lot of sense - for me, I'll visit a preserved line if I'm nearby, out of interest or curiosity, but wouldn't go half way across the country to see steam trains, because it doesn't have any real appeal to me.  Probably, as you said, because I have no connection to it, no frame of reference other than as museum pieces.  And I think that extends to layouts too.  If someone did a model of somewhere like the Wensleydale or ELR focussing on their diesel operations, DMUs and locos, I'd be much more interested than a model of somewhere like the Bluebell or IoW Steam Railway.  Even to an extent I tend to "switch off" when I see steam specials on layouts like New Bryford or The World's End (both excellent layouts in themselves of course!) as such things seem a bit clichéd and twee.  

[Colin_McLeod]

A model of a preserved railway does not have to be set in the present. The preserved station could be in any era from the 60s on.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[phil-b259]

 

Yes the steam locos are highly polished and the coaching stock is clean but only to a point. The bogies and the under frame are usually quite dirty. Of course your preserved line may have a colliery an oil depot or a dairy still in business on it and sending their coal or milk and cream out by rail and oil in by rail. The passenger side can be purely tourists but the freight side helps to keep the preserved railway's books well and truly in the black. One can use any excuse such as road transportation becoming too expensive for a dairy. The line was only maintained to the colliery or the oil depot from the junction but now the preserved railway runs the trains to the exchange sidings or the mainline railway operator has running rights to the colliery, dairy or oil depot which means that a class 66 runs on the preserved railway.

 

 

Unlikely to be coal, aggregates or indeed Milk! these days, the first two because of the well established 'bulk trains' with the latter having comprehensively left the rail network decades ago.

 

Oil is a more likely possibility (as per the Ribble Railway in Preston) or perhaps MOD traffic. Of course before the demise of the wagonload / Speedlink / Enterprise networks a manufacturer of Lighting products used to send out a couple of vans via the Bodmin & Wedford.

 

There are of course sometimes more add-hoc movements such as when some RHTT wagons were taken by road to Sheffield Park then worked north and handed over to NR or when the West Somerset was used to deliver coastal defence rock armour.

 

Other possibilities which Heritage Railways have been used for in the past include driver adhesion training, new roiling stock testing or most recently at Chinor, a place to test Thames Valley Police Armed response units effectiveness in Hostage negotiations (involving a Chiltern DMU)

[phil-b259]

My fireman would get a right royal rollicking if he were to use his iphone for anything other than an emergency whilst on my footplate...

 

What even as a camera?

 

Joking aside while obviously focusing on the primary responsibilities is of course vital, I have seen some excellent images taken by footplate crews during the course of their turn.  As with pretty much everything else in life its not the object per say that is an issue, its how and when it is deployed.

[Reorte]

I think of a colliery as a coal mine where coal is mined from underground rather than quarried as in an opencast, and other than some free mines in the Forest of Dene this time of mine is currently extinct in the UK apart from a couple of museums

There are two which may open in the near future one at crofton in Yorkshire which ironically sees heritage railways as one of its customers and a reopened Haig pit at Whitehaven

For some non-tourist operations on preserved lines, recently (until 2013) (open cast) coal was going along the Weardale Railway. There's the bitumen traffic on the Ribble Railway, and the army trains on the Wensleydale Railway.