Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[Dunsignalling]

I think we strayed from the point a bit .

 

Is a preserved railway trying to recreate what it was like originally ? Some are and some are big train sets ... room for both .

 

I still maintain it would be boring to operate , as even some if the biggest only have a few trains in action at once . Limited operation .

Ah, but on a model, it can be a gala day every day.........

[rob D2]

And your typical cross country route / branch line has how many?

You cannot ignore the fact that, as Dr Beeching observed, something like 3/4 of the passenger / freight traffic came from a few very busy routes. In other words large parts of the network had a very sparse train service.

The fact that our current railway network is handeling well over double the amount of passengers it did compared to the 1960s on a network half that size proves that the past is not always what people like to pretend it was.

As I said last year if people can get their heads passed the 'preserved railway modelling is not real railway modeling mantra' and actually treated it the same as they do any other railway setup they will find it is not as restricting as the naysayers tell us.

Finally people must be careful to differentiate between what they personally like and whether something is possible. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in blue diesels or wanting to hear the sound of class 50s over Shap - but I don't go round using that as an excuse to say that such a model is 'boring / unchallenging / requires no skill or research / requires no attention to detail / etc'

Well I don't think I said half of that...must be using ink from MI5..

 

I have no interest in steam...but one of the main bits of variety on amodel railway for me is variety of locos . A preserved railway couldn't really offer that much....the same stock would come round really often .

Edited October 27, 2017 by rob D2

[Chris M]

I haven't done a heritage railway yet but I could welll do. Based on my local line, the Severn Valley Railway, there is plenty of variety . Over the years there has been a fantastic mix of motive power. Everything from pacifics down to industrials. I have also seen brand new diesels either on test or running in. There are visiting trains and gala days with locals, through trains and freight trains. There are stock movements where a number of locos might be towed and trains for permanent way gangs and civil engineers.

There is currently a proposal to run trains from the big railway along part of the line . Some time ago I think there was talk of using the SVR for waste trains to a landfill site. There are trains that don't stop at all stations and driver experience trains that sometimes use the freight loop at Highley and are technically not stoppers. They have a Gresley coach rake in teak and an LMS set as well as mk1s.

I reckon that's a better variety than most branch lines ever had.

[phil-b259]

Well I don't think I said half of that...must be using ink from MI5..

 

I have no interest in steam...but one of the main bits of variety on amodel railway for me is variety of locos . A preserved railway couldn't really offer that much....the same stock would come round really often .

 

Firstly, you are still missing the point - its got nothing to do with whether you personally 'like' steam or not. I have no desire to go rock climbing but I am not so dismissive or closed minded that I can appreciate that it will be a very rewarding activity for others to pursue. True if they only ever go climbing at the local leisure centre then I might have a point, but if they then start going on climbing holidays to challenge themselves then they deserve respect.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that in principle modelling a preserved / heritage railway can in principle require exactly the same attention to detail as modelling a 1930s GWR branchline for example - which in quite a few cases consisted of nothing more than a autocoach shuttling back and forth ("the same stock coming round really often" as you put it) and the once a day freight working. True simply running a whole bunch of mixed locos out of the box and calling it a 'preserved railway' is indeed a lazy approch - but if the modellers goes and weathers the underframe details of their rolling stock (while most Preserved lines keep the body itself looking clean, the same is not true of underframes etc), goes to the trouble to install appropriate signalling / scenery then they will still have had to expend significant effort on the model.

Edited October 27, 2017 by phil-b259

[Corbs]

There was a chap on here building a model of a preserved 'Ropley' that had very good attention to detail

[phil-b259]

There was a chap on here building a model of a preserved 'Ropley' that had very good attention to detail

 

Indeed - and the same was true of the model of Horsted Keynes that someone made.

[Steamport Southport]

A good example would be Carrog.

 

Coachmann has made a fantastic model of this station. Would it be a lesser layout if he had based it in the present day and ran it like the Llangollen Railway does?

 

Of course it wouldn't.

 

 

 

Jason

[brianusa]

There's not a lot of difference between a preserved line and your average layout, especially a BLT.  Doesn't go very far, limited amount of stock small locos.  Even a twenty mile line is limited and that's large compared with the usual around six mile line.

 

Brian. 

[andyram]

Having read some of the recent comments I would like to add my opinions. Model railways are a wide and diverse hobby. People all have their different interests. There are great layouts depicting long lost stations, modern image and fictions branch lines. All have their merits. Why not model a preserved location? For some of us - a preserved steam railway is the only experience we have of a steam locomotive. Why should these not be an inspiration?

 There are some great models based on preservation out there. The Ropley and Horstead Keynes layouts have already been mentioned on here. I have also seen the amazing model of Goathland recently. I have also seen N gauge layouts based on both Bewdley and Victoria Bridge on the Severn Valley.This is a great inspiration for a model. As mentioned - the traffic on the SVR can be very diverse. I visit regularly, usually on a midweek operating day, during the school holidays. There is so much variation to see. In fact I was last there yesterday. During my visit there were three passenger services shuffling up and down the line (1501 + LMS stock,  7714 + Mark 1's,  Sir Keith Park + Mark 1's). In addition the Ivatt 4 was on a Footplate Experience with the LNER Teak stock. At Highley station there was a Network Rail "Rail Grinder" on test. 

 Other special workings I have observed during my midweek visits are:

 

1450 + Auto coach on Footplate Experience.

45110 + observation saloon on a charter working.

7802 + on dining train.

A4 Union of South Africa leaving with support coach for main line work.

 

Various preserved diesels on empty stock workings or hauling wagons on engineering duties.

 

In addition:

The line provides storage for the Belmond British Pullman - which provides a very different working.

 

Run the line as a gala - you can mix all kinds of freight with local and full line workings including top and tailing and double heading.

Santa Specials also run top and tailed, as do the Halloween specials.

 

Not very diverse then!!!!!

[Ian J.]

Actually, IMHO one of the disadvantages of a preserved line is its variety. The real railways, regardless of period, tended to have rakes of coaches and fleets of the same locos that were dedicated to particular lines, all in much the same liveries for any given point in time, so not really much variety if you model a single location. On a preserved railway you tend to get quite a mix of stock, liveries and locos from pretty much all over the place.

 

What is more challenging with preserved/heritage lines is the off-line paraphenalia, like half rotted away coaches covered in tarpaulins (which to do well would take as much work, if not more, as building a coach kit to use for running); rusting locomotives (ditto re coaches); lots of passengers in a variety of garish clothing, rather than a few in similar clothing; etc., etc.

[Dunsignalling]

Maybe the obvious answers are the correct ones.

 

1. People don't model preserved railways because they have other subjects they prefer to model.

 

2. If they want to look at a preserved railway, the real thing is much more enjoyable.

 

 

John

[whart57]

I've considered modelling a preservation society set up as a use for some of the 7mm scale NG stuff I have. My thoughts were along the lines of a c1970 period when the PS has just taken over a quarry or former brickworks line and is still in the process of acquiring stock. Something like a Bagnall 0-4-0T steamer would be the jewel in the crown to be used on special days while basic rides are offered using a small diesel and "coaches" formed of a garden seat or two on a flat wagon. PW maintenance and clearance trains would be the main traffic.

[hayfield]

Actually, IMHO one of the disadvantages of a preserved line is its variety. The real railways, regardless of period, tended to have rakes of coaches and fleets of the same locos that were dedicated to particular lines, all in much the same liveries for any given point in time, so not really much variety if you model a single location. On a preserved railway you tend to get quite a mix of stock, liveries and locos from pretty much all over the place.

 

What is more challenging with preserved/heritage lines is the off-line paraphenalia, like half rotted away coaches covered in tarpaulins (which to do well would take as much work, if not more, as building a coach kit to use for running); rusting locomotives (ditto re coaches); lots of passengers in a variety of garish clothing, rather than a few in similar clothing; etc., etc.

 

 

Ian

 

Sorry to disagree with you but like others I am planning a layout based on a preserved railway, the reason is that it is the best fit for my modelling activities

 

My interests are building track, K's kits, whitemetal locos and other types of rolling stock. My main loco interests are with the GWR and SR and the various livery's plus I also like certain locos from other companies

 

Modelling a preserved railway allows me to use models from various companies with differing liveries and the emphasis on locos.I have about 16' in length so it best used for a branchline terminus. Now I can have a small rake of  SR coaches pulled by a large tender loco from a different region

 

Take Bodmin in GWR days, not many trains a day, perhaps a tank loco in the engine shed

Bodmin now has a 2 road loco shed plus a 2 road repair/workshop, as many locos as I like/layout can hold and can run as many trains as I like

 

Now if my interests were different I may have gone for a BLT based on the Prototype/region/era that interested me.

[Poggy1165]

I was on the East Lancs Railway on Friday. The train was A4 60009 Union of South Africa hauling 4 mark I coaches, It was well-filled, mostly with families and the sort of people who wouldn't know an A4 from Thomas. I was pleased for the railway to see it so profitable.

 

There used to be a lot of criticism of people who ran big engines with short trains on model railways; here is an excellent prototype for just such a working. 

 

Having said that I would never model a preserved (standard gauge) line for two reasons:

 

1. No "real" goods workings. For me by far and away the most interesting aspect of both prototype and model railways.

2. Too many boring BR liveries. Sometimes "enhanced" by artificial filth to please people who want to live in 1966. No thanks.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Poggy1165

[Guest]

I was on the East Lancs Railway on Friday. The train was A4 60009 Union of South Africa hauling 4 mark I coaches, It was well-filled, mostly with families and the sort of people who wouldn't know an A4 from Thomas. I was pleased for the railway to see it so profitable.

 

There used to be a lot of criticism of people who ran big engines with short trains on model railways; here is an excellent prototype for just such a working. 

 

Having said that I would never model a preserved (standard gauge) line for two reasons:

 

1. No "real" goods workings. For me by far and away the most interesting aspect of both prototype and model railways.

2. Too many boring BR liveries. Sometimes "enhanced" by artificial filth to please people who want to live in 1966. No thanks.

 

My apologies for the "Funny", but I now have an image in my head of some poor bloke trying to weather a 12"/1ft scale A4 with an airbrush...

[Echo]

I get the feeling that many people have stereotypical views of preserved railways.

 

I have often thought that one of the less run-of-the-mill preserved railways would make a very special model. What about the Foxfield Railway on one of its special event days, for example? Then there's the Ffestiniog, for which several excellent, atmospheric model railways have been built.

[Steamport Southport]

I get the feeling that many people have stereotypical views of preserved railways.

 

I have often thought that one of the less run-of-the-mill preserved railways would make a very special model. What about the Foxfield Railway on one of its special event days, for example? Then there's the Ffestiniog, for which several excellent, atmospheric model railways have been built.

 

Using those two examples.

 

The Ffestiniog is run as a proper railway, the paid staff are actually unionised, or were the last time I looked. Set timetable using regular carriage sets and locomotives. New locomotives and rolling stock. No playing with trains apart from occasional galas.

 

The Foxfield is the opposite. Volunteers playing with trains. No regular service trains going from A to B. No destinations. Regular "goods" trains carrying nothing in particular. Haphazard collection of rolling stock (ex mainline railway and industrial).

 

No disrespect intended to either railway.

 

 

 

Jason

[rob D2]

Firstly, you are still missing the point - its got nothing to do with whether you personally 'like' steam or not. I have no desire to go rock climbing but I am not so dismissive or closed minded that I can appreciate that it will be a very rewarding activity for others to pursue. True if they only ever go climbing at the local leisure centre then I might have a point, but if they then start going on climbing holidays to challenge themselves then they deserve respect.

 

Why is it so hard to accept that in principle modelling a preserved / heritage railway can in principle require exactly the same attention to detail as modelling a 1930s GWR branchline for example - which in quite a few cases consisted of nothing more than a autocoach shuttling back and forth ("the same stock coming round really often" as you put it) and the once a day freight working. True simply running a whole bunch of mixed locos out of the box and calling it a 'preserved railway' is indeed a lazy approch - but if the modellers goes and weathers the underframe details of their rolling stock (while most Preserved lines keep the body itself looking clean, the same is not true of underframes etc), goes to the trouble to install appropriate signalling / scenery then they will still have had to expend significant effort on the model.

Well, I'm not missing the point because I'm not sure what your point is.

 

I said - models of preserved railways are a boring concept as the operation and stock is limited. You be responded with a fairly aggressive diatribe about having to reach the same level of detail with a model of a preserved layout as much as a normal one. I didn't say anything about detailing at all. That didn't form any part of my post or opinion.

 

Anyway, I can't be arsed to argue about points I didn't make .

Edited October 28, 2017 by rob D2

[Northmoor]

An early season mid week visit to the SVR some years ago, I forget but pre-Kidderminster, on a rainy day with a not very clean 5764 and a 3 coach set of equally not very clean various disparate Colletts and hardly any passengers was probably the most 'realistic' heritage experience I have had, but the railway could not possibly have made any money that day and would have done better to have not burned the coal!  But I was taken as a 10 year old from Newport to Brecon with a pannier just before that service was withdrawn in 1962, and the experience was very similar!

I think you, PhilH and myself had all had similar experiences. Sometimes these railways create the best experiences when they don't try too hard.

Funnily enough last weekend I was at the Watercress Line Diesel Gala and was taken back in time as I was at the same event two or three years ago.  Climbing from Arlesford to Ropley and Medstead, I was taken back 30 years to climbing Cockett bank out of Swansea.  Behind either a 33 or a 47 working moderately hard, sitting in a Mark 1 coach (other coaches don't sound or smell the same - I could identify one blindfolded) and rumbling along at 25mph, it was perfect.

[russ p]

Has anyone modelled a preserved railway in the past? To me it seems to be the last 15 to 20 years I've found a lot of them off putting.

I was involved with preservation for a long time but I find the longer established ones now have a strange atmosphere about them with s lot of volunteers there not because they are interested in railways but seem to be involved because they can dress up and lord it over the public

[The Johnster]

I would not personally be interested in modelling a preserved or heritage railway as the operation is far to dull for my purposes, though done properly the challenge of accurately modelling it is just as great as any other sort of railway.  I might be interested in a main line/heritage railway interchange, though, Kidderminster, Totnes, Lydney for example.

[ForestPines]

As mentioned - the traffic on the SVR can be very diverse. I visit regularly, usually on a midweek operating day, during the school holidays. There is so much variation to see. In fact I was last there yesterday. During my visit there were three passenger services shuffling up and down the line (1501 + LMS stock, 7714 + Mark 1's, Sir Keith Park + Mark 1's). In addition the Ivatt 4 was on a Footplate Experience with the LNER Teak stock. At Highley station there was a Network Rail "Rail Grinder" on test.

Other special workings I have observed during my midweek visits are:

 

1450 + Auto coach on Footplate Experience.

45110 + observation saloon on a charter working.

7802 + on dining train.

A4 Union of South Africa leaving with support coach for main line work.

 

Various preserved diesels on empty stock workings or hauling wagons on engineering duties.

 

In addition:

The line provides storage for the Belmond British Pullman - which provides a very different working.

 

Run the line as a gala - you can mix all kinds of freight with local and full line workings including top and tailing and double heading.

Santa Specials also run top and tailed, as do the Halloween specials.

 

Not very diverse then!!!!!

An SVR volunteer writes: the Halloween ghost trains are top & tailed, but the Santa Specials aren't - it would just need too many locos. The only exception is that on Santa timetables in recent years there has been a top and tailed ECS working which is done that way to save a path getting all the necessary engines off Bridgnorth shed; its Up working crosses the first two Down service trains.

 

Also someone upthread mentioned FE services being put into Highley yard: that's not normally done any more, because FEs usually have passengers on too nowadays (the guests of the "experiencers")

 

At the recent SVR gala in September, Arley station did have an N model based on Arley on display; it was a post-preservation model and the owner had gone to some extent to populate it with the right locos and stock. Like the exhibition-circuit model of Bewdley which has been mentioned it was built as a double-track oval, but because only the station area was modelled it didn't have as many compromises on accuracy as the Bewdley model does.

[andyram]

An SVR volunteer writes: the Halloween ghost trains are top & tailed, but the Santa Specials aren't - it would just need too many locos. The only exception is that on Santa timetables in recent years there has been a top and tailed ECS working which is done that way to save a path getting all the necessary engines off Bridgnorth shed; its Up working crosses the first two Down service trains.

Also someone upthread mentioned FE services being put into Highley yard: that's not normally done any more, because FEs usually have passengers on too nowadays (the guests of the "experiencers")

At the recent SVR gala in September, Arley station did have an N model based on Arley on display; it was a post-preservation model and the owner had gone to some extent to populate it with the right locos and stock. Like the exhibition-circuit model of Bewdley which has been mentioned it was built as a double-track oval, but because only the station area was modelled it didn't have as many compromises on accuracy as the Bewdley model does.

Sorry. My mistake regarding the Santa trains. The Arley layout was built by the same gentleman who built the excellent model of Victoria Bridge.

[Chris M]

The model of Bewdley is almost very good. All credit to the people who built this layout; it is unmistakably a model of Bewdley and captures the features well. I have seen it a couple of times and it is interesting to see with plenty of movement but its a shame that the station appears to be something of a mix between preserved and pre-preservation eras. This make it neither fish nor fowl for me. To be fair it was probably made this way to add interest that you couldn't have if it was just a heritage railway.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Chris M

[ForestPines]

The model of Bewdley is almost very good. All credit to the people who built this layout; it is unmistakably a model of Bewdley and captures the features well. I have seen it a couple of times and it is interesting to see with plenty of movement but its a shame that the station appears to be something of a mix between preserved and pre-preservation eras. This make it neither fish nor fowl for me. To be fair it was probably made this way to add interest that you couldn't have if it was just a heritage railway.

Speaking as someone interested in operations, I found it a shame that they had turned it into a double track roundy-roundy, because when I saw it (at an exhibition near Weston-Super-Mare a couple of years back) they seemed to be just letting trains circle, rather than operating it in a realistic way. Actually replicating real operations would have been much more interesting.

 

Apart from the southern end, it seemed to have a good deal of fidelity, and certainly captured the feel of the place rather well, although I know what you mean about being neither fish nor fowl. It strikes me that the pre-preservation layout at Bewdley North would be rather tricky to build with off-the-shelf track.