Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[whart57]

Yep, "Fone World" is not the sort of shop sign you saw in 1950's Devon.

 

Good work from the 16 year old though.

[The Johnster]

What a mixture Kingbarrow seems to be!  I don't think anybody would be offended if I called it fairly basic modelling, and none the worse for that, but there are some nice touches which show that it is not a box opener's layout.  The headlamp on the loco is not what I would have expected (please ignore that it is in the wrong place, at least somebody has thought about locomotives and lamps), and the curtains and internal detail of the old Triang SR restaurant car are a delight.  I like the treatment of the station canopy as well.

 

In many ways it encapsulates both the reasons some of us are a bit dismissive of preserved railway models, and the reasons we shouldn't be!

[BG John]

One of my mad ideas, that will probably never get to the top of my to-do list, is "Museum of the Broad Gauge", where some rather wealthy enthusiasts have got together and had various 7ft gauge locos, and rolling stock, recreated. They've done their best to create a 19th century atmosphere using the 20th/21st century buildings on the site, and operate trains over a reasonable length of track. The car park would be full of modern cars, and the surrounding area would all be modern, or decaying old buildings. For shunting the stock, in the same way that outside framed narrow gauge locos were converted to broad gauge by putting wheels outside the frames, an 08 would get the same treatment, to wind everyone up .

[whart57]

My first reaction was "why?", but then I got to the bit about the re-gauged 08. Go for it - well that bit anyway :-)

[BG John]

My first reaction was "why?", but then I got to the bit about the re-gauged 08. Go for it - well that bit anyway :-)

Because I've moved the time period for my serious broad gauge layout forward to the late 1880s/early 1890s, and I've got a pile of unbuilt/unfinished kits from earlier periods! Plus one loco that was scrapped long before then .

[Poggy1165]

In fairness, I think it takes just as much mental discipline to produce a convincing model of a preserved railway as it does to produce - oh, lets say Ashburton in 1932. Just as the owner of "Ashburton" was often (at least back in the day) tempted to run three coach through trains from Paddington behind a King, so is the owner of a preserved layout tempted to trot out anything and everything produced by the trade - and never has the RTR selection been so tempting.

 

I have rarely seen a preserved railway done well as a model. There is at least one of those rare exceptions on this very site, a model of the Bluebell if memory serves. But to do something like that is not an easy option, it's just as tough as any other form of advanced modelling. As I said earlier, for myself the absence of "proper" goods trains would make such a choice unthinkable. That doesn't mean it would be unthinkable for those who don't care about wagons.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Poggy1165

[Edge]

I think that that hits the nail on the head, preserved lines are not too popular as subjects because there are so few good models out there. Of course there are exceptions, but whenever I have personally seen a model of a preserved line it has been an after thought excuse to justify running some pretty shoddy models in an unconvincing setting. they almost all look like train sets and not model railways, the only two I have ever seen (in magazines, never in person) are the model of Horsted Keynes on here and a fictional N Gauge preserved railway (name escapes me) which focus on being good models.

[andyram]

It is such a shame the excellent 00 gauge "Goathland in 00" keeps getting missed on these pages. A stunning preservation era model. 

[PhilJ W]

One of my mad ideas, that will probably never get to the top of my to-do list, is "Museum of the Broad Gauge", where some rather wealthy enthusiasts have got together and had various 7ft gauge locos, and rolling stock, recreated. They've done their best to create a 19th century atmosphere using the 20th/21st century buildings on the site, and operate trains over a reasonable length of track. The car park would be full of modern cars, and the surrounding area would all be modern, or decaying old buildings. For shunting the stock, in the same way that outside framed narrow gauge locos were converted to broad gauge by putting wheels outside the frames, an 08 would get the same treatment, to wind everyone up .

 

 

My first reaction was "why?", but then I got to the bit about the re-gauged 08. Go for it - well that bit anyway :-)

Triang-Hornby beat you to it with the inside frame 08, only the wheelbase and gauge were wrong. I know, hat, coat and gone.....

[BG John]

Triang-Hornby beat you to it with the inside frame 08, only the wheelbase and gauge were wrong. I know, hat, coat and gone.....

Don't bother about the hat and coat, just go. As fast as possible

[DavidB-AU]

What might be needed for a preserved railway layout to look convincing is the inevitable collection of rollingstock that hasn't yet been restored. Yes it's nice to have shiny, pristine stock on the operating trains on many preserved railways the storage sidings often look like the Woodham Brothers scrapyard.

 

Cheers

David

[The Black Hat]

It is such a shame the excellent 00 gauge "Goathland in 00" keeps getting missed on these pages. A stunning preservation era model. 

 

That was my thoughts when looking at all of this. I have spoken to the team running this a few times and it is a preservation model with many of the engines you would see operating. Like my own, the railway focuses on an operational area (ie the station) where the public would come into contact with just the working engines and operational rolling stock. So no signs of engines awaiting restoration, just a mix of engines and stock going about their duties.

 

That often is the fun, in that your modelling a steam operation that could be seen today, rather than one that's historical. That link to today can give people something more that they relate to, especially with Goathland being a real location, rather than mine which is based on somewhere. It gives them connections to things they have witnessed there or somewhere similar which can generate more interest, as well as the operation and sounds of a DCC Sound layout.

[Killian keane]

Is it not simply that a model of a preserved line would be imitating something that is in itself trying to emulate what once was? If you were to model the bluebell line for instance, why not model the LBSCR and SECR in pre grouping days?

[whart57]

The present Bluebell line is nothing like the SECR or LBSCR of 100 years ago. It does a good job of providing film sets for movies set in that period but once you expand beyond the limited fields of view of the film cameras the modern world intrudes. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it does mean a layout of a preserved line is not the same as a layout set in the steam era

[phil-b259]

Is it not simply that a model of a preserved line would be imitating something that is in itself trying to emulate what once was? If you were to model the bluebell line for instance, why not model the LBSCR and SECR in pre grouping days?

 

No, due to:-

 

(i) Roiling stock availability in RTR

(ii) A desire to showcase vehicles from other railkways like the B12 we had a few years ago or the LNWR Coal Tank.

 

As has been noted the Bluebell is not, and never can recreate itself as a SECR / LBSCR branch line - the rolling stock simply doesn't exist! Hence you get the sight of a SECR 0-6-0 with Mk1s, a P tank with a LNWR observation car, a Standard 5MT with Maunsell coaches, a a goods train with a mix of SECR, LBSCR and SR vehicles, etc.

Edited November 2, 2017 by phil-b259

[Northmoor]

As has been noted the Bluebell is not, and never can recreate itself as a SECR / LBSCR branch line

 

But it would still get infinitely closer than any other railway (I know you didn't write the above as a criticism).

 

I remember resisting writing to Heritage Railway magazine a few years ago when one of their regular correspondents complained that the Bluebell was so reluctant to repaint a loco in BR livery for a photo freight charter.  I thought how unbelievably narrow-minded to insist that the loco was in BR livery but most of the wagon fleet were in pre-nationalisation liveries and the stations look like the 1920s.  None of that matters so long as the loco is the livery they want....

[DavidB-AU]

Is it not simply that a model of a preserved line would be imitating something that is in itself trying to emulate what once was? If you were to model the bluebell line for instance, why not model the LBSCR and SECR in pre grouping days?

Because this and these didn't run on that line in pre-grouping days. A preserved line gives you the chance to run anything you like.

 

Cheers

David

[phil-b259]

But it would still get infinitely closer than any other railway (I know you didn't write the above as a criticism).

 

I remember resisting writing to Heritage Railway magazine a few years ago when one of their regular correspondents complained that the Bluebell was so reluctant to repaint a loco in BR livery for a photo freight charter. I thought how unbelievably narrow-minded to insist that the loco was in BR livery but most of the wagon fleet were in pre-nationalisation liveries and the stations look like the 1920s. None of that matters so long as the loco is the livery they want....

My take on that is if the railway concerned is pretty much totally reliant on Mk1s (e.g. The Mid Hants or Swanage Railway) then it sort of makes sense to have all the locos in BR liveries.

 

However if the railway does have a good selection of grouping / pre-grouping stock then it is far better to paint locos in the earliest possible liveries to match.

 

Hopefully we never give in to demands to have the C class or the H in BR black - the SECR livery is far, far more attractive (and draws lots admiring comments from the non enthusiast public)

 

 

As such on a line like the Bluebell my view is BR black / green should be reserved for the BR standard locos we have with everything else painted to show off earlier liveries. In that sense it does sadden me that the Atlantic rebuild will emerge in BR black for its first opperating stint - although I can understand why it appeals to the volunteers building it given their general age demographic and do agree with the principle that they have the right to pick the livery.

Edited November 2, 2017 by phil-b259

[PhilJ W]

There is also the case of many preserved locomotives that are in a rebuilt condition to when they were first built carrying a livery that pre-dates the rebuild.

[PhilH]

The problem is as well that PRs have to keep reinventing themselves...using the Bluebell as an example if it was perceived as an SECR or whatever it is line only, and only ran locomotives suitable for that line and period the railway enthusiast world, not noted for its patience, understanding or humour, would soon be whingeing about how boring it all is running the same old same old.

 

You have to have guest/ different locomotives for this audience. I sometimes do wonder why we bother as, as is often stated, it is mum and dad plus 2.4 who pay most of the bills for any PR, which is why Wizard, Thomas, War on the Line etc. weeks are so important to us.

Edited November 3, 2017 by PhilH

[Steven B]

A preserved line gives you the chance to run anything you like.

 

 

Only if you're applying Rule One. If a preserved railway was modelled to the same standards as Mostyn or Lime Street then you won't see a rake of Mk4s for example.

 

That's not saying that a preserved railway doesn't give you more opotunities to run a wider variety of stock. I'm guessing the SVR didn't see too many rakes of LNER coaches, and the KWVR certainly never saw and HST before BR closed the line.

 

Whilst there's no real shunting of freight going on, I'd be interested to know if there's much difference in the contents of demonstration freight trains when compared to say the 1960s. I'm guessing that most pre 1960s freight on the lines preserved wouldn't have been much more than a few opens and vans each day. If there was more freight (and passenger) traffic then there would have been less reason to close them down, allowing them to be preserved.

 

 

Steven B.

[Poggy1165]

Pre 1960s goods operation was often a darn sight more than a few opens and vans each day, except maybe on minor branch lines. Moreover, you would not usually see a brake van at each end of the stock unless there were special operational requirements. At a place like Ramsbottom (which I quote because it's on the current ELR) there were massive yards - so big you can scarcely conceive them nowadays, and a good deal of shunting. Go back earlier, and I believe there was a dedicated shunting engine.

 

The beauty of modelling a preserved line is that you can have a loco in pre-group livery hauling Mark 1s - you don't have to worry about getting "proper" coaches for it - and your other train can be headed by a Warship or a Deltic or whatever floats your boat. The hard bit is to do this and make it convincing. I think - just my opinion - that in this particular case modelling a real place helps hugely.

 

On the subject of loco liveries, this is really controversial. I accept that owners have the right to paint them sky blue pink if they like, and there are quite a number of locos that only qualify for BR livery. But what saddens me, personally, is that whenever a loco is turned out in an alternative livery, there seems almost immediately to arise a campaign to repaint it in BR colours. BR steam was 20 years of our railway history and only a minority now remember it anyway. There were other eras, and these deserve representation too.

[GreenGiraffe22]

My take on that is if the railway concerned is pretty much totally reliant on Mk1s (e.g. The Mid Hants or Swanage Railway) then it sort of makes sense to have all the locos in BR liveries.

 

However if the railway does have a good selection of grouping / pre-grouping stock then it is far better to paint locos in the earliest possible liveries to match.

 

Hopefully we never give in to demands to have the C class or the H in BR black - the SECR livery is far, far more attractive (and draws lots admiring comments from the non enthusiast public)

 

 

As such on a line like the Bluebell my view is BR black / green should be reserved for the BR standard locos we have with everything else painted to show off earlier liveries. In that sense it does sadden me that the Atlantic rebuild will emerge in BR black for its first opperating stint - although I can understand why it appeals to the volunteers building it given their general age demographic and do agree with the principle that they have the right to pick the livery.

 

 

 

Yes to all of this! Although I'd quite like to see the likes of the H & C class in Southern liveries, just to match the Maunsells or birdcages they might be pulling, just because... itj ust adds to the whole experience when the entire train is somewhat prototypical,  likewise if it was easy and cost effective for them to do so (I know it's not), it would be wonderful to experience their Southern at War weekends with the locos all in wartime black (and maybe even weathered ? )

 

The magic is somewhat lost on an SECR O1 pulling ugly BR MK1s , of course they have to make do with what they have, and I get that, in an ideal world blah blah blah.

 

And yes, I hate that they're putting all this time and money into an H2 to out shop it in horrible BR black, but there we go!

 

Edit: managed to repeat quotes somehow

Edited November 3, 2017 by GreenGiraffe22

[JDW]

I've been holding off commenting here, but have to say I agree with a lot of what has been said above.  I've rarely seen a preserved railway done well, more usually they seem like train set type layouts where the owner has an eclectic collection of stock and calls it a "preserved line" to justify running anything, through towns of Superquick buildings sitting or grassmats with grey strips for roads and the same eclectic mix of road vehicles. 

Of course, we all do this for the fun, and if that's what pleases people, then that's great.  But it doesn't do much for me.  That said, even if it were a highly detailed, well modelled scene, I'd still not want one myself, as it's not something that really interests me, but I respect and admire the skill of those who model such things just as much as I admire layouts like Mick Bryan's New Bryford, James Makin's Loftus Road or Aberdeen Kirkhill to name a few.  Even then, I "switch off" when I see a token "steam special" running, as it doesn't really interest me, despite being "modern image" just as much as a Northern DMU or Network Rail HST.  

I wonder too if the idea of modelling a fictional preserved line is something that just "isn't done" in Britain, in the same way we tend not to model fictional railway companies in the same way as US modellers invent their own railroads.  

[coachmann]

When I posted on here seven years ago (gulp), little did I think I would be building a model of a preserved station (Carrog).  I have been careful to model it as it was in the 1950's, but if I was modelling it as it is today, an equal amount of care and research would be required! 

 

Modelling heritage lines isn't a ticket to do just about anything. Today, I would need to know what Mk.I stock the Llangollen line has, what livery it carries today (differing shades on maroon and also blood & custard for example), which locos have been hired in and when........ autumn or spring makes a difference to the scenery. I would need copies of timetables and so-on. Gee, it is easier to model the 1950's and more exciting when there was meaningful freight as well.