Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[phil-b259]

I've absolutely nothing against preserved railways or heritage projects looking neat, tidy and well-cared for. I wouldn't expect anything less. Likewise, I'd expect a model of the Midland Railway c1900 to have clean locos and stock, neat permanent way (at least the passenger carrying lines) and well looked after infrastructure.

 

But the original question was why are these lines unpopular as layouts. A 1900s layout of the MR represents the railways of that period. A more grimy outlook might pertain on a 1960s model set in Lancashire. But that was the reality of a time and a place. Preserved lines are often an amalgamation of different periods and it doesn't quite work for me I'm afraid.

 

True in one sense yet false in another. Preserved railways are not static and many are very different now to what they were 10, 20, 30 or 50 years ago. Locos come in and out of ticket, coaching stock varies as stuff is restored or falls due for overhaul plus the infrastructure changes as years goes by in much the same way that the type of locomotives used by the Midland Railway changed as the years went on. Its worth remembering that the Bluebell has owned and operated the Sheffield Park - Horsted Keynes section for longer than anyone else (the LBSR had 40 years, the Southern 24 years & BR had a mere 12 years).

 

For example a early 80s Bluebell model will see Bullied stock to the fore, the Adams radial and Stowe working with 1638 and 847 still as Barry wrecks. Move on to 2014 and its vintage stock to the fore, the Adams and Stowe haven't steamed for years with 1638 & 847 in regular traffic. in the early 80s Horsted Keynes lacked buildings on Platforms 1 & 2, while Sheffield park lacked the Catering & shop buildings and the sides of the loco shed weren't filled in in brick.

 

The key therefore with a preserved railway model is to settle on a specific time period then research what was being operated and how the infrastructure looked in your chosen years - no different than choosing to model anywhere else. If you want to create a factious preserved railway the process not that dissimilar to a representation of a factious line set in say the 1920s. You need to come up with a suitable back story as to how the line became to be preserved, how the locos and rolling stock got there (be that imagining that various currently preserved stock made their way to your factious location rather than the Severn Valley, the Bluebell, etc or imagining that the Barry story was replicated by another scrap dealer somewhere else). Finally you need to consider that in the years you are modelling how many and what types of locos / rolling stock are likely to have been available (not forgetting mind how long loco / rolling stock restorations take.)

Edited October 14, 2014 by phil-b259

[sammyboy]

Even a railway modelling magazine (October 2015 BRM) recently produced an entire issue dedicated all things to do with modern preserved/heritage railways and the attractions of modelling them and now even I am tempted in thinking of a future layout built in N gauge based on preserved steam & diesel operations at a fictional location.

 

Sam 

Edited May 11, 2016 by sammyboy

[DavidB-AU]

On a somewhat related note, are there any preserved lines with layouts depicting them as they were "back in the day"?

 

Cheers
David

[ClikC]

Speaking for myself, I couldn't imagine a wholly more boring subject for the basis of a model railways.

 

To me, model railways serve three key objectives:

 

Time travel - Perhaps it stems from me being a basher. But I’ve often remarked that as a frustrated 304.8mm to the foot modeller, given the opportunity, I'd forgo all railway modelling if I could time travel. First stop would be Crewe in March 1974, to catch 50 031 and 50 040 (Hood and my all-time favourite 'vac' Leviathan), over Shap to Carlisle. Nothing short of time travel, or the worlds most advanced form of matrix-like Virtual Reality could replicate that sound!

 

Exercise in Engineering - Alas, much like Dilbert, I too have been cursed with 'The Knack', and as Scott Adams once said "Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." Probably why I gravitated to P4.

 

Artistic Expression - Hopefully fairly self-explanatory, but here is a quote for good measure "Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating." - Steven K. Roberts

 

To me, the proposal of modelling a preserved line falls are the first hurdle. While, certainly you could model a preserved line at a given period, that period is unlikely to be of interest to me. Steam for the most part leaves me cold (blame working with steam in industry), and I like to wind people up be telling them I like exactly 1.5 types of Steam locomotives. the 1 being Black Fives, and the .5 being 9F's, because they we're practically Diesels I'm also far more interesting in the History of the working railway, something preserved lines always lack. As the a-typical anti-social Engineer, the appeal of something to move big chunks of coal and steel around, will always appeal far more than a line for tourists and the like.

 

As far as the second hurdle goes, preserved lines are often home to strange engineering practices. A prime example is the multitude of preserved Mk1 coaches, featuring a wide range of single phase electrical charging and connecting components, sourced from the local city electrical factors. White plastic just doesn't go with Chocolate and Creme, Blue and Grey or Blood and Custard...

 

Out of the three, Artistic expression is probably the only fence this horse would clear. But solely due to the fact that it contains the exercise of modelling a railway.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[RJS1977]

On a somewhat related note, are there any preserved lines with layouts depicting them as they were "back in the day"?

 

Cheers

David

 

There's a historical (Victorian) model of Tan-y-Bwlch on the 009 exhibitions circuit, whilst similarly Bryn-y-Felin, depicts the WHR in the 1920s, and of course there's Rod Allcock's Corris. There will be a model of the pre-preservation Tal-y-llyn at  the Oxfordshire Narrow Gauge Modellers' exhibition at Steventon in June.

 

I've also seen a 1950s model of Horsted Keynes.

[Colin_McLeod]

There is a beautiful model of Downpatrick set up in one of the carriages there. http://www.google.ie/search?site=&source=hp&ei=k-YyV8vGItvwgAaT3Zi4Ag&q=downpatrick+railway+christmas&oq=Downpatrick+railea&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.3.0i13l2j0i13i30l3.2163.10377.0.12808.17.17.0.9.9.0.281.1815.13j2j2.17.0....0...1c.1j4.64.mobile-gws-hp..0.17.962.3..0j41j46j0i131j0i46j0i22i30.0VA8_qIE5cA#istate=kp:xpd

[johnarcher]

Speaking for myself, I couldn't imagine a wholly more boring subject for the basis of a model railways.

 

To me, model railways serve three key objectives:

 

Time travel - Perhaps it stems from me being a basher. But I’ve often remarked that as a frustrated 304.8mm to the foot modeller, given the opportunity, I'd forgo all railway modelling if I could time travel. First stop would be Crewe in March 1974, to catch 50 031 and 50 040 (Hood and my all-time favourite 'vac' Leviathan), over Shap to Carlisle. Nothing short of time travel, or the worlds most advanced form of matrix-like Virtual Reality could replicate that sound!

 

Exercise in Engineering - Alas, much like Dilbert, I too have been cursed with 'The Knack', and as Scott Adams once said "Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." Probably why I gravitated to P4.

 

Artistic Expression - Hopefully fairly self-explanatory, but here is a quote for good measure "Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating." - Steven K. Roberts

 

To me, the proposal of modelling a preserved line falls are the first hurdle. While, certainly you could model a preserved line at a given period, that period is unlikely to be of interest to me. Steam for the most part leaves me cold (blame working with steam in industry), and I like to wind people up be telling them I like exactly 1.5 types of Steam locomotives. the 1 being Black Fives, and the .5 being 9F's, because they we're practically Diesels I'm also far more interesting in the History of the working railway, something preserved lines always lack. As the a-typical anti-social Engineer, the appeal of something to move big chunks of coal and steel around, will always appeal far more than a line for tourists and the like.

 

As far as the second hurdle goes, preserved lines are often home to strange engineering practices. A prime example is the multitude of preserved Mk1 coaches, featuring a wide range of single phase electrical charging and connecting components, sourced from the local city electrical factors. White plastic just doesn't go with Chocolate and Creme, Blue and Grey or Blood and Custard...

 

Out of the three, Artistic expression is probably the only fence this horse would clear. But solely due to the fact that it contains the exercise of modelling a railway.

 

Regards

 

Matt

I like the Roberts quotation - sums up how this hobby is more wide-ranging than most forms of modelling, including both art and engineering.

 

To your three points I'd add one more, crucial for me if not for other people -

 

I'm not just interested in the railway, but what is around it too. Railways were intimately part of the community, - brought in everyone's coal and Auntie's new piano, took kids leaving home and brought them back to visit. I'm sure preserved lines, like other tourist attractions, contribute to the local economy, but they're not part of its life like that. I suppose I'm odd, even very good models that are just railway don't interest me much, so how it belongs to its setting is important.

 

Oh - re time travel, for me, by the main line at Dawlish c1880.

Edited May 11, 2016 by johnarcher

[Northmoor]

I thought it was time this thread was resurrected again......!

 

I find myself agreeing with almost every contribution to this thread, in some way or other.  I don't recall seeing a model of a preserved railway that wasn't just an overcrowded train set.  But if the owner enjoyed it, who am I to criticise?

 

The people I'm surprised don't build models of preserved railways, are the railways themselves.  Sometimes they have a model railway built as an attraction by the members but it's usually just a generic layout.  This is such a missed opportunity - for any developing scheme, having a layout showing the railway as they intend to develop it, could be very valuable for promotional purposes, planning applications or just to get any local opposition "on side".

 

I'll make one comment on the real preservation scene.  Many enthusiasts don't think preserved lines truly capture the atmosphere of the "real" era.  However, railways put on events for enthusiasts when multiple locos run to an intense timetable, which while capturing their interest is NOTHING like the railway originally operated.

 

One of my most memorable visits to a heritage line was to Cranmore on the East Somerset Railway, on a mid-week non-operating day about 20 years ago.  Apart from a couple of members of staff around, it was deserted, just like many rural stations would have been for most of the day in the 1950s.  Some of my photos look like the sort Henry Priestley used to take, with not a train in sight.

[Steamport Southport]

I thought it was time this thread was resurrected again......!

 

I find myself agreeing with almost every contribution to this thread, in some way or other.  I don't recall seeing a model of a preserved railway that wasn't just an overcrowded train set.  But if the owner enjoyed it, who am I to criticise?

 

 

 

To be honest I've rarely seen a preserved railway that wasn't like an overcrowded train set.

 

 

 

One of the most realistic and enjoyable visits to a heritage railway that I've had was at the K&WVR when they were running a single DMU. Sometimes less is more.

 

 

 

Jason

[dibber25]

Why would anyone wish to model a Preserved lines when the lines themselves are now't but a 12inch to the foot trainsets.

 

When preservationinsts first started touting for money to preserve this and that, they sold a vision to punters like me of trains continuing to run instead of dissapearing. Sure the trains continued to run , but they didn't look like anything that BR had been operating prior to closure and they certainly didn't fit the vision. First thing the older members did was got the locos repainted in pre-grouping liveries! Small wonder many people drifted into industrial railways and bus preservation in the 1960s.

 

When I was at Princes Risborough a few months back, I saw the first train I've ever seen on the old branch to Chinnor and Watlington. It consisted of a Southern EMU with a Class 45 'Peak' on one end and a Class 31 and a Class 66 on the other end. I'm sure the Watlington branch had a regular service of similar trains! What was really unrealistic was that the three coaches were packed full of passengers! (CJL)

[russ p]

Once a mainstream manufacturer introduces a DCC controlled 4mm scale man with a massively over inflated ego covered in gold braids and name badges they may become popular!

[tomparryharry]

there is a lot of subtle difference between a preserved line, and a working line. At a preserved line, you can't go a few yards with an ice cream stand, and locomotives bulled up to the nines. Old style? Decay, fag ends, half drunk cups of tea, impromptu seats, a momentary pause before the next job turns up. In a preserved railway, everything gets a coat of paint, often in the wrong shade, High viz vests, and people for the most part playing at trains. I can think of an award winning railway, where the staff work really hard to create a working railway. But, they work too hard, so the effect is rather twee... sometimes like a dozen staff on the platform.

 

On the other hand... One award winning exhibition layout had a focal point on his layout, where locomotives were stabled before use. "where's the chairs?" If you've got locomotives, you've got staff, and being human, they'll park their backsides to have breaks, whatever. Not lost on the owner, happily.

 

'Compression' is one unrealistic factor of preserved railways. Within a mile, you might see a historic coach, stored locomotive, breakdown crane, all on the same stretch of line.

 

A preserved railway is a bit like a model railway, but working on a 1-1 scale.

 

I'd much rather see a 'singular' model railway, where the builders have striven to accurately portray a given social/geographical time line, and everything in context. Some exhibition stuff knocks my socks off. Preserved railways don't cut it, and a model of a preserved railway even less so.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Chris M]

But a preserved railway is a real working railway and deserves to be seen as such. Ok it has volunteers running it but it is still a real railway. Many locos and coaches have spent longer serving on a preserved railway than they did on their original railways. The locos aren't always pristine either. Just look at the Severn Valley locos after a few weeks working the Santa specials. They aren't filthy but they have quite a used look to them. 

 

I could get nostalgic about preserved railways as I remember working on the SVR when I was a 15 year old back in 1970. Mostly on the permanent way but I also spent a few days on a crossing to wave a flag to show oncoming loco drivers that the crossing was clear. So there I was 15 years old, no hi vis, no safety training course and standing close to moving steam hauled trains. How dare they do that to a 15 year old! Its a wonder I survived! Well no it isn't because I was given very clear on the job advice on safety by the PW gang leaders and the guys in charge knew I was sensible.

[Dunsignalling]

To be honest I've rarely seen a preserved railway that wasn't like an overcrowded train set.

 

 

 

 

They have to be.

 

If they were like they were in the 1950s, most couldn't possibly cater for the needs of the massed general public who make their existence viable and, to be authentic, we'd need to recruit a chubby bald volunteer to close them all down again. There are exceptions; Minehead and Paignton spring to mind, that were always fairly hectic, at least on summer Saturdays, but not many.  

 

I prefer the term "heritage" to "preserved" in this context. The latter more accurately describes the collections of items that have been saved, rather than the way they are combined, presented and used. Some lines do this (much) better than others but space limitations mean there will often be something inappropriate parked at even the less patronised, more "atmospheric" intermediate stations where I tend to go for my nostalgia "fixes".  

 

Maybe what's really needed are fiddle yards where the surplus and unrestored stock can be tidied away.

 

John

Edited October 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[PhilH]

To be honest I've rarely seen a preserved railway that wasn't like an overcrowded train set.

 

 

 

One of the most realistic and enjoyable visits to a heritage railway that I've had was at the K&WVR when they were running a single DMU. Sometimes less is more.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Not if you want the line to survive...

[The Johnster]

An early season mid week visit to the SVR some years ago, I forget but pre-Kidderminster, on a rainy day with a not very clean 5764 and a 3 coach set of equally not very clean various disparate Colletts and hardly any passengers was probably the most 'realistic' heritage experience I have had, but the railway could not possibly have made any money that day and would have done better to have not burned the coal!  But I was taken as a 10 year old from Newport to Brecon with a pannier just before that service was withdrawn in 1962, and the experience was very similar!

Edited October 27, 2017 by The Johnster

[rob D2]

I think we strayed from the point a bit .

 

Is a preserved railway trying to recreate what it was like originally ? Some are and some are big train sets ... room for both .

 

I still maintain it would be boring to operate , as even some if the biggest only have a few trains in action at once . Limited operation .

[Steamport Southport]

Not if you want the line to survive...

 

How many times have you turned up at a preserved line and they've had four large locomotives in steam, pulling eight coach sets of BR Mark Ones and had half a dozen passengers all day?

 

 

Now that's not the way to survive.

 

 

For the record the DMU was packed to the rafters.

 

 

 

Jason

[woodenhead]

Grosmont seems like a nice option to model - the swapping of locomotives for trains coming off and going onto NR, shunt moves to get to/from the shed plus the NR side to model too albeit just units.

 

Six locomotives, a modern unit and a selection of coaches is all you need and being a popular line it attracts all sorts of favourites so a Black 5, B1,  standard class 4 tender, standard class 4 tank, a 25, a Schools or an A4 would be perfectly prototypical.  

[phil-b259]

I think we strayed from the point a bit .

 

Is a preserved railway trying to recreate what it was like originally ? Some are and some are big train sets ... room for both .

 

I still maintain it would be boring to operate , as even some if the biggest only have a few trains in action at once . Limited operation .

And your typical cross country route / branch line has how many?

 

You cannot ignore the fact that, as Dr Beeching observed, something like 3/4 of the passenger / freight traffic came from a few very busy routes. In other words large parts of the network had a very sparse train service.

 

The fact that our current railway network is handeling well over double the amount of passengers it did compared to the 1960s on a network half that size proves that the past is not always what people like to pretend it was.

 

As I said last year if people can get their heads passed the 'preserved railway modelling is not real railway modeling mantra' and actually treated it the same as they do any other railway setup they will find it is not as restricting as the naysayers tell us.

 

Finally people must be careful to differentiate between what they personally like and whether something is possible. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in blue diesels or wanting to hear the sound of class 50s over Shap - but I don't go round using that as an excuse to say that such a model is 'boring / unchallenging / requires no skill or research / requires no attention to detail / etc'

Edited October 27, 2017 by phil-b259

[Steamport Southport]

Grosmont seems like a nice option to model - the swapping of locomotives for trains coming off and going onto NR, shunt moves to get to/from the shed plus the NR side to model too albeit just units.

 

Six locomotives, a modern unit and a selection of coaches is all you need and being a popular line it attracts all sorts of favourites so a Black 5, B1,  standard class 4 tender, standard class 4 tank, a 25, a Schools or an A4 would be perfectly prototypical.  

 

One of the ones that do it right.

 

How many of those visitors are there for nostalgic reasons though? Very few. Watch the webcam and you see more people under the age of fifty than you do the people there to reminisce about the old days. They want a journey, maybe a meal and/or a drink. It's getting more about seeing what trains were like in granddads day rather than what you remember. Many of them don't care if it's a diesel as they never travel by train. If they do then it's a commuter journey.

 

You are competing with Alton Towers and LEGOLAND, not other preserved railways. If a railway has a film or TV connection then so much the better.

 

 

I love this webcam. I could watch it all day.

 

https://www.nymr.co.uk/live-webcam

 

 

 

Jason

[Guest]

I've just noticed this thread and have had a read-through. Getting away from the real world and back to the layout theme in the OP, I genuinely don't know why there aren't more "preserved" layouts around. Plenty of good theories have been mentioned. Personally, the thought of being able to run pretty much anything you want to in a modern environment has lots of appeal. That could be because I have a short attention span and change my mind every five minutes. My wife says so, so it must be true...

[Corbs]

The new Andrew Barclay from Hattons would make a good candidate for a preserved railway layout, coupled up to a couple of blue and grey Mk.2 coaches and a Queen Mary guards van at the back!

Then get yourself some non-running Bulleid Pacifics and 8Fs, rust them up a bit, park them in the siding with a miniature donation box, bob's your uncle....

[Steamport Southport]

I think it's because most models of preserved railways aren't really trying to be models of preserved railways and therefore end up being unconvincing and just an excuse to run locos and rolling stock that the modeller has accumulated over the years.

 

I reckon if you really wanted to do it properly then you could model a preserved/heritage railway convincingly, whether based on a prototype or a fictional line.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

The new Andrew Barclay from Hattons would make a good candidate for a preserved railway layout, coupled up to a couple of blue and grey Mk.2 coaches and a Queen Mary guards van at the back!

Then get yourself some non-running Bulleid Pacifics and 8Fs, rust them up a bit, park them in the siding with a miniature donation box, bob's your uncle....

 

You missed the BR liveried "J94".

 

 

 

Jason