Lime Street Station

[Steve Hewitt]

A couple of weeks ago I was chatting in the Blackburn (B&ELMRS) clubroom with Noel Coates about the work I'd been doing to revise the operating sequence we use on Lime Street as a result of the article in LMS Journal by Graham Warburton on Lime Street re-signalling.

The article had given us a better insight into how the platforms had been used for Arrivals and Departures etc. and we wished to reflect this in our operations.

 

Noel suggested that we should look at the Working Timetable for the Western Division of the LMS in our chosen period - 1945 to 1947 and described the sort of information we could expect to find there.

 

A couple of days later he emailed me to say he'd found a copy on eBay.

He then went on to offer to puchase it, analyse the contents as they apply to Lime street and present us with the results.

How's that for a really helpful guy!!!!

 

Today I received the four Excel spreadhseets of his work.

One each for "Weekdays", "Saturdays only", "Sundays only" and "All days".

 

The "Weekdays" looks likely to be most useful.

The data presented covers some 175 services, both Arrivals and Departures, but not Light Engines and Empty Stock movements.

 

The first departure is 2 mins. past midnight, Express to Euston; the first Arrival is 12:43, the Noon express from Penzance the previous day!

The last Departure is 11:05pm Passenger to Ditton Junction; the last arrival at 11:52pm being the 8:08 from Leeds.

 

I don't think we'll ever have enough stock or fiddle yard space to accomodate them all, but we'll be aiming to cover a representative selection.

 

Steve.

[Guest jim s-w]

175 services in how long Steve?

 

I dunno about your period but there might be station working books for passenger, parcels (including shunts) and a light loco working book out there somewhere.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Steve Hewitt]

175 services in how long Steve?

 

I dunno about your period but there might be station working books for passenger, parcels (including shunts) and a light loco working book out there somewhere.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

 

Twenty-four hours.

 

Steve.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Jim,

 

Twenty-four hours.

 

Steve.

 

Really? Why do I think LLS was much busier :/

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[JeffP]

175 in 24 hours is one every 8.2 minutes.

Given that at peak times they would probably be more frequent, and less so in the small hours, you may not be wrong, Jim.

[LMS2968]

had a great weekend,ran well, a few bumps from the operators but nothing like what happened in 1949..

 

http://www.railwaysa...eStreet1949.pdf

 

When I was a guard at Edge Hill in 1973, Guard George Barton was still there, by that time shop steward of the NUR. I had many a talk with him as he was a very friendly soul, and he told me all about that accident, although his version varied slightly from that in the report!

[Steve Hewitt]

175 in 24 hours is one every 8.2 minutes.

Given that at peak times they would probably be more frequent, and less so in the small hours, you may not be wrong, Jim.

 

These are all "revenue earners".

There were also a lot of shunting and light engine movements.

 

Steve.

[Les Green]

The data presented covers some 175 services, both Arrivals and Departures, but not Light Engines and Empty Stock movements.

 

Steve.

 

Did you see Micheal Portillo at Zurich Station on his Continental Railway Journeys programme. We thought 175 trains in a day was a lot at LLS. He mentioned Zurich handles 3000 trains per day!

[Steve Hewitt]

snipped.....

 

I spoke with John a short while ago, and he already has the soldering iron out and is starting to make the changes necessary.

Geoff will be collecting the two control computers - the "X" and "Y" boxes - to install the modified software necessary to implement the changes.

The intention is to have the changes completed and the Operators trained in the new system in time for our next show, which is Watford Finescale in February.

 

Steve.

 

John has just sent this picture of one of the Cutting baseboards up on the bench for the wiring changes:

 

 

He explains that the board propped up on the chair is an "outrigger" which presents all the connections from a 25 pin D socket for checking without having to take the covers off and poke inside!

 

All the wiring changes has been completed, just the documentation to bring up to date. MOST IMPORTANT.

 

We hope to put enough of the boards up tomorrow to allow us to check it out.

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

John, Brian and I got the the main "spine" boards up this morning and were able to test out the changes John had made.

The first change removed a long standing problem of a spurious feed causing a loco in the Neck to move when a Departure was being driven on the Up Fast.

 

The second change is the optional extension of the "handover" section on the Down lines to the Signal Gantry in the Cutting.

This was eventually tested successfully, once the "Common Returns" became really common between the Sector Plate and Station areas.

 

At present the switching is effected by twisting wires together to operate the relays which select the area being controlled!

The control panels, and their control computers will be going to Geoffs place shortly.

When they return, the selection will be by use of the buttons more normally used on the control panels.

 

Once they are returned we will assess the impact of the changes on the current operation sequence, and then modify it to maximise the benefit in terms of operation flexibility and train freqency.

Hopefully all this will be apparent when we take the layout to Watford in February.

 

See you there?

 

Steve.

[TerryD1471]

Most impressed by your results to date, but as a dyed in the wool LMS enthusiast, I would be, wouldn't I?

 

It serves to demonstrate how effective a small dedicated team can be. Also the behind the scenes equipment does you all credit.

 

All the best to you.

[andyrush]

A dyed in the wool LNER (GE) enthusiast is impressed too! I look forward to seeing the changes at Watford

[TheLaird]

I have been following the development of this layout with interest since well before I had ever heard of RMWeb. Brilliant layout, first class workmanship and the electronics not only bewildering but actually do what they are designed to do, marvellous. Having observed it at Warley, one question that has probably been covered before, why not DCC? if any layout was crying out for it surely this is it? (a genuine interest NOT a criticism).

 

Best regards John E.

[Steve Hewitt]

Thanks for your kind comments.

 

Why not DCC?

 

Becasue the whole concept was developed before DCC was available.

The principle of "all track live" for DCC perposes, is diametrically opposed to the control priciple of Lime Street.

Because we use the "Routing Computers" to control all the movement, there is only ever traction current available where and when it is needed.

 

That's not the full,story of course!

 

We do have the facility to plug in John's "Black Box" and operate DCC locos.

The router then takes the DCC supply instead of the inbuilt DC supplies, and routes it in the same way, I believe.

I've no real experience of this, or DCC in general, so I'm not sure what the effect is on things like sound systems etc.

I could imagine Diesel locos having to go through the "start up" procedure every time a route was set for them.

 

Steve.

[Guest jim s-w]

 

I could imagine Diesel locos having to go through the "start up" procedure every time a route was set for them.

 

Hi steve

 

If you are using route setting to feed power to the layout then that's exactly what will happen

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Horsetan]

....when we take the layout to Watford in February.

 

See you there!

 

*makes note in diary*

[newbryford]

Hi steve

 

If you are using route setting to feed power to the layout then that's exactly what will happen

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

Unless the sound file was customised not to have a start up. I'll bet by using a v4 Loksound, you could have optional startup if required.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Steve Hewitt]

¦

¦

I'm hoping to post some photos and video from the show as soon as I can get my hands on them.

I didn't get chance to take any myself during the weekend.

¦

¦

Steve.

 

I've just got a CD with the shots Tony took, so here are a few:

 

The van has been emptied, and the layout is lined up ready for erection to start:

 

First the more important step, fuelling the team; L to R: John R., Rob, John H., Steve and Les. Tony is behind the camera of course. Chris and Michael still somewhere up on Merseyside and Geoff is also en route.

 

Once the show opened we had a fairly good crowd:

 

Here are Chris and John R. at the Station controls:

 

The late afternoon sun flooded Hall 5.

It made operating quite difficult at times particularly if it hit the video screens, without which you're driving blind.

It did give Tony some good shots though:

 

 

Finally, the intense sunlight brought out the reflections in the protective perspex edges.

It almost looks like we've modelled the buildings on the far side of Skelhorne Street and further along Lime Street:

 

Steve.

[7APT7]

Hi Steve

 

Great Photo's and behind the scenes setup. as I never got to go this year...

 

Excellent Layout... How many hours of hard work as that taken you and/or the club to this point...

 

Jamie

[Steve Hewitt]

Hi Steve

 

Great Photo's and behind the scenes setup. as I never got to go this year...

 

Excellent Layout... How many hours of hard work as that taken you and/or the club to this point...

 

Jamie

 

Jamie,

 

I don't think there is a record of the hours spent, but they have been spread over many years.

 

Its a privately owned layout, but many of the team who work on it are past and present members of the Blackburn & East Lancs MRS.

 

Steve.

[LNERGE]

A dyed in the wool LNER (GE) enthusiast is impressed too! I look forward to seeing the changes at Watford

 

Me too. I think the standard of modelling is incredible. Although of patch for me i do have considerable interest in the location. As a teenager i bought the box diagram via Collectors Corner. It had been rather brutally cut in half and me and a school friend carried the two pieces from Euston to King's Cross. It just fitted in the brakevan of a 312.

[Steve Hewitt]

Me too. I think the standard of modelling is incredible. Although of patch for me i do have considerable interest in the location. As a teenager i bought the box diagram via Collectors Corner. It had been rather brutally cut in half and me and a school friend carried the two pieces from Euston to King's Cross. It just fitted in the brakevan of a 312.

 

Interesting!

Was it the one out of the box we have modelled?

Do you still have it, or know of its whereabouts?

 

Steve.

[LNERGE]

It was from the 'new' box. I don't have it now unfortunately. I can remember you could see the ghost of the turntable where it had been scraped off the diagram. I will ask the chap i sold it to if he still has it.

[Michael Woolford]

Steve,

 

Do you know what CCTV system the layout uses as most of the cheaper systems have very poor quality and the ones on Lime Street seem to be fairly good. Also I am considering using Fulgurex motors and would like to know if there have been any issues with them on the layout such as reliability and installation, and finally do you know how the diagram for the control panel was made as this is also something I am about to start doing on my layout and I am sure would be of interest to many others.

 

It is a joy to see this layout progress and I look forward to seeing it in the future if ever I get the chance!

 

Michael

[Steve Hewitt]

Steve,

 

Do you know what CCTV system the layout uses as most of the cheaper systems have very poor quality and the ones on Lime Street seem to be fairly good. Also I am considering using Fulgurex motors and would like to know if there have been any issues with them on the layout such as reliability and installation, and finally do you know how the diagram for the control panel was made as this is also something I am about to start doing on my layout and I am sure would be of interest to many others.

 

It is a joy to see this layout progress and I look forward to seeing it in the future if ever I get the chance!

 

Michael

 

Michael,

 

Thanks very much for your questions.

I hope I can answer them fully (and accurately).

I'll post a separate answer to each, so if they start off a dialogue, they can be followed more easily.

 

First the CCTV:

 

This is very much one of Geoff Peters' bits of magic.

The original cameras were sourced from CPC, but they are no longer available.

Recent ones have been found from China via the internet.

I'm not sure of the specification, but getting the right field of view (focal length) is important.

 

The monitors are also from CPC, and other suppliers like RS, Farnells, etc. have them.

 

The bit in the middle - The Video Switch - is all Geoffs own design and construction.

Its the thing that lets different camera views be presented to each monitor, and is what makes the operation of the layout possible.

It is triggered by button selection on the consoles and also by the Router and the progress of a train along its route.

This means an operator who sets a route is presented with an appropriate view automatically.

e.g A Station operator might set a route "Down Fast to Platform 3".

Besides the Router setting the route, clearing the signals etc. it triggers the Video Switch to show the operator a view of the Sector Plate, where he can watch his train being prepared.

As he drives the train down the Cutting, an infra-red sensor tells the Router where it has got to.

The Router then resets the Gantry signals, and triggers the Video Switch to show the train crossing the station throat and travelling into its platform.

As it approaches the end of the platform the operator then selects for himself a view which will allow him to see the uncoupling point where he will stop the train. He does this by pressing one of eight selection buttons adjacent to his monitor.

 

Point Motors and the Control Panels to follow.

 

Steve.