Lime Street Station

[Steve Hewitt]

Hello Steve,

 

I like the idea of the baseplate for the signal.

A couple of questions if I may.

1] is the 1/4" brass tube fixed to the baseboard? If not why not just make the "stub" 1/4" dia and a bit longer?

2] why not just make the second hole the size for the inner brass tube 1/32"

 

I may have miss understood the bit about the 1/4" brass tube making a handle for holding the signal, or are you using the 1/4" tube as a socket that is fixed in the baseboards as well.

 

OzzyO.

Hi OzzyO,

 

The 1/4in brass tube isn't fixed in the baseboard.

The fit is a close one, so friction keeps the signal in place, even on prtable layouts, but allows removal.

The tube doubles as a "Handle" during construction.

 

The second hole locates the 1/16in tube whiich can be quite long depending on the baseboard thickness.

 

Making the "stub" longer would increase printing cost quite considerably.

 

The principle behing the various tubes is one I employ on all the signals I make.

See this Topic for detailed explanation:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/59687-semaphore-signals-4mm-scale-mainly/page-8&do=findComment&comment=1180777

If you follow this topic for several posting, I hope you see my reasons for the various tubes etc.

 

The "printing" of the baseplate and "stub" just allow the principles to be followed easily, using Resin rather than Brass and Nickel Silver for the signal.

(I haven't found a flux which will allow me to solder Resin to Brass)

Steve.

[clecklewyke]

I wonder what the point of the baseplate is? Everyone seems to build their signals on one but I think it's inessential and simply adds more difficulty as it has to be disguised/blended into the ground surface. I find that interlocking square tubes as you suggest are quite sufficient to locate the signals - the larger one in the baseboard, with a smaller one around the post of the signal, with the operating wire/s within that.

[Steve Hewitt]

I wonder what the point of the baseplate is? Everyone seems to build their signals on one but I think it's inessential and simply adds more difficulty as it has to be disguised/blended into the ground surface. I find that interlocking square tubes as you suggest are quite sufficient to locate the signals - the larger one in the baseboard, with a smaller one around the post of the signal, with the operating wire/s within that.

Hi,

 

On this Ground Signal the base plate is necessary as the signal is smaller than 1/4in hole over which it will stand.

The 1/4 in hole is smaller than anything else I've used previously.

It has to be large enough to allow the cranked end of the operating wire to pass through.

This sort of thing. That's a 5/16in tube with a ground signal on top.

 

The other very important feature of a Base Plate is to anchor the signal's ladder.

 

I don't think you'll find I've ever suggested interlocking square tubes, as I've never used them.

I have used telescopic Round Tubes on some removable signals on our Club Layouts many years ago.

 

In summary, I use a base plate on which to build both the signal above and the mounting and operating mechanism below.

It is the reference against which everything is checked for squareness etc.

 

Steve.

[clecklewyke]

On this Ground Signal the base plate is necessary as the signal is smaller than 1/4in hole over which it will stand.

 

I concede that you might have a point! 

 

But I still think that baseplates are an unnecessary complication with most signals.

 

Ian

[Steve Hewitt]

The first Buffer Stops are fitted.....

 

John has just let me have a couple of pictures of the first Buffer Stop in situ:

 

 

 

He wrote:

 

"Here at last are two shots of the buffers having been now fitted by me and scenically blended in by Rob, (at least the platform 1 one). The second shot you can see the lamp lit, but I'm not sure if they are taken a little bit too close. What do you think ?"

 

Steve.

 

p.s.  John, Les and Brian will be demonstrating at the Preston show this weekend. I'm sure they will be more than happy to discuss their work on Liverpool Lime Street, so why not drop by for a chat?

[7APT7]

Excellent work.... good attention to detail

 

 

Jamie

[Les Green]

p.s.  John, Les and Brian will be demonstrating at the Preston show this weekend. I'm sure they will be more than happy to discuss their work on Liverpool Lime Street, so why not drop by for a chat?

 

I will take a box full of some of the impressive bits we have made for the hotel, along with some of the drawings done so far.

[Steve Hewitt]

The work continues..........

 

John has just sent  me a progress report which our followers might find interesting?

 

Despite some "forced labour" time, spent decorating in the house, he has started installing the point rodding at the ends of Platforms 1 & 2.

 

This is the sort of thing he's doing:

In this picture, the crank on the left (the old, dirty one) is actually operational.

It is driven from below the baseboard by the point motor. This is how the points actually operate.

The new rodding and facing point locks etc are still bright nickel silver.

They are not yet linked together, so they can be removed easily for ballasting!

 

In this shot, the white lines indicate where the "Barrow Crossings" will be located.

 

The point to the rear of this shot has no Facing Point Lock as this is a none passenger carrying road.

 

With eleven platforms, four sidings and a couple end-loading bays, all with access to Fast and Slow, Up and Down lines, there's a lot more of this work to do.

 

I can't wait to see how John is going to route it all back into the Signal Box.

As he says "Its going to get interesting"

 

Steve.

 

[hayfield]

Steve

 

Hope you all are well and its nice to see the layout progressing, I have just started to ballast my 0-16.5 layout and hope to have some form of point rodding on the layout, though like yours a point motor under the baseboard will work a cut down O gauge tiebar, so this part of the build will be especially interesting to me.

 

Must say the trackwork just keeps getting better and better as the build progresses

[Steve Hewitt]

It seems to just go on and on............

 

Latest photos from John show more progress on the point rodding:

Those large holes in the platform surfaces are where the signals for platforms 1 to 5 are normally mounted.

Once this phase of the work is completed the signals can be re-installed as they will be in less danger of getting in the way of the workers.

 

Geoff is currently doing some upgrades to software and enhancing the "Node" which integrates the Signals' servo control with the Route Setting computer.

The capacity of the node is being increased significantly, as the existing limit of 32 semaphores has been reached!!!!!

 

Its not going to be too long now before we can assemble the remaining layout boards and get back to some OPERATING!

 

Steve.

[bbishop]

Steve,

 

Are you at Dortmund next month?

 

Bill

[Steve Hewitt]

Hi Bill,

 

No, I'm afraid we're not.

 

Currently we've got ExpoEM North and Halifax in the diary for September.

 

Steve.

[Pete Harvey]

Steve

 

Doses or will the rodding actually work when the points are thrown ?

[Steve Hewitt]

Hi Pete,

 

You must be joking!

Only the final crank where it connects to the tie bar is operational.

 

A lot, or possibly most, of what you can see in these pictures will be hidden under the bridges, behind buttresses etc., so if it doesn't move, no one will be any the wiser.

 

Steve.

[newbryford]

Hi Pete,

 

You must be joking!

Only the final crank where it connects to the tie bar is operational.

 

A lot, or possibly most, of what you can see in these pictures will be hidden under the bridges, behind buttresses etc., so if it doesn't move, no one will be any the wiser.

 

Steve.

 

Isn't one of the mottos of LLS "Because we can......."?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Mike T]

Hi Steve

 

I hate to say this but John has got most of his FPLs the wrong way round - they bolt goes in and out from the front of the switches not the back except on switch diamonds (IIRC). Unless track circuited, fouling bars would be fitted and you will find that the way these are arranged the FPL has to operate this way. That said it is very rare to see the bar itself modelled.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Mike T]

Hopefully you might find this useful; the toe of the point is off to the right:

[Steve Hewitt]

Hi Mike,

 

John has sent this response to your copmment:

 

"Hi Mike,

Thanks for that.

I'll get it put right as soon as I can. Better to get it right now than find out after painting.

 

Nice to know someone out there is keeping an eye out.

As captain Mannering would say, "Well done Wilson, I wondered when you'd spot that one !!"

 

Cheers,

John.

 

[Mike T]

Hi Steve

 

Good for John, I know he likes to get things right!

 

Whilst scanning some stuffs for 'Signal Engineer' I came across the following which might be more use than the previous drawing I posted as it gives more detail. Admittedly it's for flat bottom rail but that would only really affect the drawings it cross references.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Steve Hewitt]

Just look what Les brought to the Blackburn Club for me last night.....

 

These are the first "3D Print" of the latest version of the LNWR Ground Signal

 

I'm sure the detail will show up better when I pluck up the courage to spray them with Grey Primer.

 

 

 

The details of the design were discussed a few posts ago, so I'll not repeat them here.

 

Don't be confused by the extra bits and pieces cluttering up the "sprue".

They are test pieces added to the design by Les to test how fine we can go with features and acieve a usable outcome.

e.g. Through the base of the "Sprue" are test holes going down from 0.5mm to 0.2mm in 0.1mm steps.

The holes are both round and square section.

These little trials cost nothing when added to a design, but give us confidence to use the results in future designs.

 

What are these? They are the connecting webs between the base of the "Print" and the bottom of the individual Signals. They will be cut through with a piercing saw to separate the signals.

 

The mechanical parts are the same etches I used in the first version of this signal some time ago, so I won't repeat them again here.

 

And here is the first trial assembly:

 

This demonstrates how the 5/16in (not 1/4in as mentioned earlier) Brass Tube is used as a handle during assembly.

A shorter length will be used to locate the signal in the baseboard when it is installed.

 

Front view:

 

Rear:

 

Side:

 

I hope these shots give a clear understanding of how the signal is assembled and operates.

 

Les also brought some more components for use in Upper Quadrant running signals which I'll describe on my Signalling Topic when I get the chance to try them out.

 

Steve.

 

[Steve Hewitt]

Another great day with John and Geoff.....

 

Geoff and I spent today with John making more progress with the layout.

The original installation of the Semaphore Signal infrastructure was designed to accomodate some 32 working signal arms.

As we've progressed, this has been used up and it was time for Geoff to expand the capacity.

 

The operation of the signals is quite sophisticated, and I'll try to explain it as best I can.

I an no expert in the detail of the technologies used, but I hope I can make sense of it.

 

The signals are operated as an integral feature of the "Route Setting" system.

When an operator sets a Route, the software uses logical tables to determine which signals should be cleared in what sequence.

 

This is the Route Setting Computer with the top off:

 

The computer sends the details of which signals to clear over a High Speed serial communications link around the whole layout.

Thats the cables marked "ML" for micro-wave link I believe.

 

At the appropriate "Node" this data stream is processed, and the Node converts the data into a simple "On-Off" signal on the appropriate output cable.

 

The Node is at the bottom of this picture:

 

From here ordinary DC cabling takes the On or Off signal (just like a simple toggle switch), to a Servo Controller which in turn controls the servo motor which moves the signal. 

Currently there are 32 such cables installed.

 

At the top of the picture you can see the Servo Controller to the left of which is the underside of the signal gantry with its twelve servos.

 

This is the area in close-up:

 

What Geoff was doing today was installing an upgraded Node, with capacity for a further 32 outputs.

It now falls to John to install the necessary DC Cables to where they will be needed to control more signals.

Geoff of course will have to update the Route Setting Computer with the additional signal identities so they can be transmitted over the network when  required.

I'll just have to build the signals......

 

More of which later.........

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

First Fit for the new Ground Signal........

 

We last saw the new 3D Printed Ground Signal:

 

Today we prepared the layout for its installation:

 

A vertical hole was drilled through the basebpard to take the Foundation tube of 5/16in dia Brass.

The thickness of the baseboard at the location points was carefully measured so that the signal can be completed at home ready for transferring directly to the layout in at my next visit.

 

Here is some idea of how it (they) will look:

 

 

By then John might have the wiring  and Servo Controller installed?

 

Steve.

 

[Steve Hewitt]

Clarification.....

 

On my earlier post about the Signalling Infrastructure I highlighted my lack of technical knowledge.

Geoff has sent me the following explanation:

 

"The label "ML" is for "micro-link" as in "micro-processor link" - as you say a high speed data link between the master and remote "dumb" devices known as nodes - the data is carried using the RS422 data protocol where the use of twisted pairs ensures a high data rate and immunity from electrical noise...

 

The nodes on Lime Street are: CCTV (station end) Semaphore (station end) Theatre indicators (gantry in the cutting) and the other "master" routing controller inside the X-Box at the fiddle yard end -Just as a laugh - the maximum cable length with RS422 (end to end) is 4,000 feet !! this should cater for all possible expansions of John's Lime Street railway,  

 

A superset of the RS422 protocol is the RS485 protocol that has in recent years become popular with the DCC fraternity

 

A link with more information can be found on the "National Instruments" web site http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/2CABB3FD5CAF2F8686256F1D005AD0CD"

 

Any queries about our use of various technologies are always welcome, and between us I'm sure we can answer them.

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

Some more photos from yesterday.....

 

John has re-worked the Facing Point Locks where they had been modelled incorrectly.

This is an interesting one:

Two points, toe-to-toe share a single Locking Mechanism.

One or other point being locked, depending on the train's direction of travel.

 

The Ticket Inspectors kiosk has been illuminated:

 

As has the Ticket Office:

John intends to model the ticket racks inside the booking windows.......later. 

 

Rob has weathered the signal gantry which serves platforms 2 to 5:

It is now back in place, along with the bracket signal on Platform 1, following John's Point Rodding work in the area.

He should be able to continue this work without risking the signals obstructing him.

 

Steve.

[Steve Hewitt]

That's all for now......

 

John has got about as far as he can with the Point Rodding for now.

Our schedule requires us to put the remaining baseboards up so that we can start operating sessions.

 

Here is the latest overall shot of the work done to date:

 

I think I've counted 14 or 15 parallel rods in this part of the run:

 

 

The connections to the cranks are not made yet, so John can lift it all for the Ballasting!

 

In the meantime, I've done a bit more on the Ground Signals:

 

A quick spray of Halford's Gray Primer brings out the details:

 

 

Here is the first signal arm I've painted and glazed:

 

 

More on this soon I hope....

Steve.