Jim104 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Hi All, Luddite No 4 here DC forever...... My layout is a present in boxes following house move.... My two 02's have been delivered but alas cannot be run at the moment. My layout is all DC and the new one will be as well using Trax feedback controllers which in my opinion are the finest of their kind around, Now some people say dont use feedback controllers, others say it does not damage the coreless motor in any way, Question? Has anyone on here tried these new coreless motors with feedbacks, anyone know what happens, or not ?? I am amazed that Dave Jones has gone this route with coreless motors (no disrespect), as the other major suppliers are still on conventional can motors. I have cancelled my orders with him for the King and E5000 models because of this uncertainty about feedback controllers. I feel he is isloating a strong market of DC users with these motors. I have a couple of friends who also have cancelled there orders because of this and have purchased the Hornby versions and have no running problems at all. Not wishing to open up the old DC versus DCC argument, but why is he going down this route ? Anyone know ? please enlighten me do. Merry Christmas to all. Edited December 23, 2015 by Jim104 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 DCC decoders are essentially a self contained feedback controller, but they do it at a very high frequency, typically 20 or 40 kHz. My understanding is that some (not all) DC feedback controllers work at a much lower frequency and this may damage the brushes of a coreless motor over a period of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Hi All, Luddite No 4 here DC forever...... My layout is a present in boxes following house move.... My two 02's have been delivered but alas cannot be run at the moment. My layout is all DC and the new one will be as well using Trax feedback controllers which in my opinion are the finest of their kind around, Now some people say dont use feedback controllers, others say it does not damage the coreless motor in any way, Question? Has anyone on here tried these new coreless motors with feedbacks, anyone know what happens, or not ?? I am amazed that Dave Jones has gone this route with coreless motors (no disrespect), as the other major suppliers are still on conventional can motors. I have cancelled my orders with him for the King and E5000 models because of this uncertainty about feedback controllers. I feel he is isloating a strong market of DC users with these motors. I have a couple of friends who also have cancelled there orders because of this and have purchased the Hornby versions and have no running problems at all. Not wishing to open up the old DC versus DCC argument, but why is he going down this route ? Anyone know ? please enlighten me do. Merry Christmas to all. Why not ask me instead? Lol Coreless motors have numerous advantages over motors with poles. No cogging for instance, super smooth power transition through the speed spectrum, long life and no brushes to change. However, drawbacks can be poor control or burning out if used with feedback controllers or electronic track cleaners. As for me 'going down this route', I'm not the first and certainly won't be the last to use them for UK or continental models. I'm sure members here could list those major and not so major manufacturers that either use them now or those that have said their new models will have them when released. I won't be the odd one out by having coreless, but the norm. RMWebbers, over to you, who else uses coreless on their RTR model, both uk and abroad? Cheers Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted December 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2015 Hi All, Luddite No 4 here DC forever...... My layout is a present in boxes following house move.... My two 02's have been delivered but alas cannot be run at the moment. My layout is all DC and the new one will be as well using Trax feedback controllers which in my opinion are the finest of their kind around, Now some people say dont use feedback controllers, others say it does not damage the coreless motor in any way, Question? Has anyone on here tried these new coreless motors with feedbacks, anyone know what happens, or not ?? I am amazed that Dave Jones has gone this route with coreless motors (no disrespect), as the other major suppliers are still on conventional can motors. I have cancelled my orders with him for the King and E5000 models because of this uncertainty about feedback controllers. I feel he is isloating a strong market of DC users with these motors. I have a couple of friends who also have cancelled there orders because of this and have purchased the Hornby versions and have no running problems at all. Not wishing to open up the old DC versus DCC argument, but why is he going down this route ? Anyone know ? please enlighten me do. Merry Christmas to all. Jim.Please look on the Gaugemaster website...where they unequivocally state that their feedback controllers are not suitable for coreless motors.To repeat...this is not news.This knowledge has been around for the last couple of decades....unpalatable as it is for you to swallow,I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 It might be worth mentioning here that all the last batch of heat ties to Kernow were coreless, with only 1 motor failure amongst the whole batch, and the O2's have had, as far as I'm aware, on,y 1 motor problem amongst that batch of 4 times as many locos. The J94 will have them, as will the 14xx and the 71, and the King, plus all 3 upcoming N gauge locks plus all my 'expanded' range too. It's a cracking motor that works exactly as you would hope, on DC and on DCC. It isn't the future, it's now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2015 . Not wishing to open up the old DC versus DCC argument, but why is he going down this route ? Anyone know ? please enlighten me do. Jim.Please look on the Gaugemaster website...where they unequivocally state that their feedback controllers are not suitable for coreless motors.To repeat...this is not news.This knowledge has been around for the last couple of decades....unpalatable as it is for you to swallow,I'm afraid. There are other DC controllers out there compatible with coreless motors if you do not wish to go down the DCC route. In a wider point, its a fact of life that technology changes and things that used to work perfectly, may not be compatible with the latest advances. How many people have had to junk perfectly good computer hardware over the years because manufacturers have changed the sockets used to plug stuff in for example. Equally loyalty to one particular product / brand can be self defeating - I know of someone who was adamant that a particular brand of anti-virus software was by far the best and anything else simply had to be inferior - when according to Which, the best software is actually free or inbuilt into the latest Windows release. OK that wasn't always the case, but to deny the current reality struck me and many others as foolish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) It might be worth mentioning here that all the last batch of heat ties to Kernow were coreless, with only 1 motor failure amongst the whole batch, and the O2's have had, as far as I'm aware, on,y 1 motor problem amongst that batch of 4 times as many locos. The J94 will have them, as will the 14xx and the 71, and the King, plus all 3 upcoming N gauge locks plus all my 'expanded' range too. It's a cracking motor that works exactly as you would hope, on DC and on DCC. It isn't the future, it's now! Hi Dave,Did the first batch of Beaties also have a coreless? I only ask as I had to play around a lot with CV settings for the O2 to get smooth running at low speed whereas my Beattie's were fine with the factory settings using the same decoder. Edited December 23, 2015 by tender Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted December 23, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 23, 2015 I ditched my feedback in 1998 &replaced it with straight Gaugemaster DC. No problems there with coreless motors. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Hi Dave, Did the first batch of Beaties also have a coreless? I only ask as I had to play around a lot with CV settings for the O2 to get smooth running at low speed whereas my Beattie's were fine with the factory settings using the same decoder. Hi mate, No the first batch of Beatties used the same 5 pole motor as the N gauge class 67 and others in that range. Only the latest batch (last 6-8 months) have the coreless as they were slightly re designed by me to take this motor. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebell Model Railway Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Just had my second delivered this morning from Kernow, dispatched on Saturday, runs nicely, got a small blob of glue on the smoke-box which I hope I can remove. But nice model goes well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim104 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Why not ask me instead? Lol Coreless motors have numerous advantages over motors with poles. No cogging for instance, super smooth power transition through the speed spectrum, long life and no brushes to change. However, drawbacks can be poor control or burning out if used with feedback controllers or electronic track cleaners. As for me 'going down this route', I'm not the first and certainly won't be the last to use them for UK or continental models. I'm sure members here could list those major and not so major manufacturers that either use them now or those that have said their new models will have them when released. I won't be the odd one out by having coreless, but the norm. RMWebbers, over to you, who else uses coreless on their RTR model, both uk and abroad? Cheers Dave Dave, thanks for your reply, sorry but I did not realise you had a Ask Dave thread.As someone else has pointed out there are DC feedbacks that can cope with coreless motors, in fact I have a kit built S15 now for some years fitted with a coreless motor and it still runs fine on my trax controllers. I was purely asking if anyone has run an 02 with a feedback to see what the reaction was with this type of controller, as I said my layout is in boxes at the moment and will be rebuilt in the spring. thanks for your reply Dave and festive greetings to you and yours, I am afraid its going to be a long long time for this luddite to go over to the dark side of constantly pressing buttons on a remote control ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim104 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Jim.Please look on the Gaugemaster website...where they unequivocally state that their feedback controllers are not suitable for coreless motors.To repeat...this is not news.This knowledge has been around for the last couple of decades....unpalatable as it is for you to swallow,I'm afraid. Ian, If you re-read my post you will see that the controllers I have are not Gaugemaster. Unpalatable, no. I know the march of commercialism is advancing rapidly and I have looked long and hard at DCC but see no pleasure in it, and do not want to be pushed into it by manufacturers. With over 250 locos in the stud I wont be going there. I have had a model railway for now over 50 years and am staggered at the recent massive price hikes made by the industry, along with the buy it now or you wont have it attitude. I wish my pension would go up at the same rate. Merry Christmas from Luddite land. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I too am firmly in the DC, and feedback, and Relco, camp. I'm using handbuilt feedback controllers, which suit my needs perfectly. When you can get a standard Triang Jinty chassis to move along reliably at a pace that can't be seen unless you look at the motor poles turning over, why change? Especially when you have a large stud to convert if you change the controller. Just a thought. If the original BWT had a normal motor, and the DJM one has a coreless....is it possible to change the coreless for another type in any model? If DJM were to produce a loco I want, I would be willing to purchase a new (old) motor at extra cost to do this, otherwise no DJM I'm afraid. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I too am firmly in the DC, and feedback, and Relco, camp. I'm using handbuilt feedback controllers, which suit my needs perfectly. When you can get a standard Triang Jinty chassis to move along reliably at a pace that can't be seen unless you look at the motor poles turning over, why change? Especially when you have a large stud to convert if you change the controller. Just a thought. If the original BWT had a normal motor, and the DJM one has a coreless....is it possible to change the coreless for another type in any model? If DJM were to produce a loco I want, I would be willing to purchase a new (old) motor at extra cost to do this, otherwise no DJM I'm afraid. Stewart Hi Stewart, Great post! May I ask a question of you please? Now I'm not saying this sarcastically, or with any motive etc behind it, I'd just like your opinion........ My question is this.......if Hornby and Bachmann said on Jan 1st they were going over to coreless in all their new loco's and you happened to need , say at least half a dozen of them as they were your dream 'must have' loco's, what would you do? Not buy them because they were coreless, or decide, that because those 2 big company's had decided to go coreless the wind of change wasn't worth pushing against and go for them despite not being compatible fully with feedback etc? As I say I'm just interested, that's all. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Interesting question Dave! On balance I think I would stay as I am. IF I decided to buy those locos, I would probably investigate a new motor or chassis to replace the ones provided. I've just had a quick look on my database of my stock. Not boasting or any "my lot is bigger than your lot", but I made it 167 motorised items. Though many are of post-China origin, there are lots that are much much older, and quite a few of the Triang style of chassis. There are some kits as well. As I said, my home-built controller allows good control of these (though there mods such as extra pickups to ensure slow running) so I don't want or need to change the controllers. As the layout is also planned to exit the garage for a circuit in the garden, track clanliness is essential so I have incorporated Relco. Like the DCC option, it is not an option to change. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 re coreless motors. Back in the early 80s I built an MPD kit of a 3F and fitted an RG4 motor/gearbox. This had a coreless motor and bevel geared gearbox. There was a similar problem in that feedback controllers and relcos etc were not recommended. So I stuck with the H & M clipper controllers I had, didn't use the relco. That loco with the RG4 was very slow running. Because of that 1 loco, I stayed "pure" dc, no electronic track cleaners etc. It set the pattern for my current layout, in fact. I've very recently dug it out and rebuilt the chassis due to the rods locking. So this loco with an excellent coreless motor will soon be back on the current layout. My interest then was to get a loco running as best as possible on "pure" dc without needing to be "propped up" with the motor being pulsed round by sophisticated electronics. But that's just what interests me and other approaches may well work better. I've got the first release BWT and I was very interested to read Dave's comments that it has the same motor as the Dapol 67 N gauge diesel. I remember seeing a video on RMweb of that loco running very slowly indeed, so not surprising that the small oo loco also runs well with that motor. I've also got the current release BWT with the coreless motor. This also runs very well, having become rather fond of it it's now run over 10 hours without problem. (I had to send the first coreless one back, not because of the motor, but Kernow replaced it by return of post and the new one runs very well). I'm still using the same (vintage but good!) H & M controllers on the current layout. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I have a Gaugemaster handheld with 'brake simulator', nothing on Gm's website so assume that should be fine with coreless, GM's HH feedback controller states as an earlier post not suitable for coreless. Once my two are run in I will test using the br/simulator, looking forward to Boxing day when I can get them unboxed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Ian, If you re-read my post you will see that the controllers I have are not Gaugemaster. Unpalatable, no. I know the march of commercialism is advancing rapidly and I have looked long and hard at DCC but see no pleasure in it, and do not want to be pushed into it by manufacturers. With over 250 locos in the stud I wont be going there. I have had a model railway for now over 50 years and am staggered at the recent massive price hikes made by the industry, along with the buy it now or you wont have it attitude. I wish my pension would go up at the same rate. Merry Christmas from Luddite land. I have 250+ locos too. However I kept to aging, plain, simple, east to repair H&M controllers and strove to make my models perform well mechanically. This policy ensures that all locos have a long life. However DCC allows sound, operational lights etc. Of course converting a lot of locos, many dating from the pre DCC era would be an awfully expensive exercise. However the layout wiring is designed such that any controller can control any section of track. Which means I can run DCC next DC at the same time. There will probably be about 10% of the fleeti under DCC control in the end, all sound fitted. I call it the all or nothing policy. In anycase a DCC loco will still run under DC. Concerning the O2s , one will be fully fledged DCC sound fitted eventually, the other classic DC control. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrymx5 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Dave sorry only just seen this post , for my sins I didn't run it without the chip first , only have dcc , is that wrong ?, by the way this is a seriously beautiful model and I am going to get Ventnor when they visit St Albans in January. Well done Dave. can't wait for the break van I ran my SR black version (K2105) in October on my Club analogue then fitted the Digitrax 1261N. It was very smooth straight out of the box. Today I ran the SR Green (207) version analogue. Interestingly it was a little jerky for the first 10-15 minutes but then became much smoother and more than acceptable. It is now ready for the Digitrax 1261N decoder. So I don't think it was wrong to run immediately on DCC but if you had the same early jerkiness that I had with the green version you might have tried to correct a non existent chip problem. Others may have their own thoughts but my reason for running in on analogue first is to enable me to identify any faults more easily. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrymx5 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Here is the stunning Maunsell Green version straying on to the Somerset and Dorset at Binegar. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) I ran in my 02s at the Corfe Viaduct layout at the Stables, Godlingston Manor, Washpond Lane, Swanage last night. Calbourne caught up with the Southern version. There were a couple of derailments on the second radius points and some binding on the second radius track but both ran well. Calbourne visited the Swanage Railway in April 2012. It was turned on the turntable and hauled the goods train and a rake of green Mk1 coaches. Possibly the only time it has hauled Mk1 coaches. It also double headed a train with M7 30053 which is much bigger than Calbourne. I have not got any records of Southern 02s on the Swanage Railway. In Southern days as they were replaced with T1s on the branch service but 02s looked similar to T1s. 02s worked alongside Beattie Well Tanks on the Swanage Railway and there is a picture of 02 180 leaving Swanage with a rake of six wheel chocolate and salmon pink LSWR coaches for Wareham on 15th July 1890. Unless Kernow makes an LSWR version I will have to get my paintbrush out. Edited December 24, 2015 by Robin Brasher 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 There were a couple of derailments on the second radius points and some binding on the second radius track but both ran well. Sounds like the B2B's need adjusting. I didn't get any derailments but the leading driving wheels of my 30193 would hit the leading point of the frog on a medium radius Peco point (code75) causing it to jump. I measured the B2B's at 14.6mm, closing this to 14.4mm sorted the problem. My 225 was ok. Still waiting for 30182 to be replaced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) Here is the stunning Maunsell Green version straying on to the Somerset and Dorset at Binegar.image.jpeg My village postie has delivered this ack emma, and amongst much dross left two particular packages, both equally anticipated and welcomed. I am just about to open the second, which is a robust and neat wee cuboid sent by some chaps called Kernow Model Rail Centre. Circumstantial evidence suggests that the contents may resemble the photo at the posting above (K 2107). And all being well, this will join some other Eastleigh types on the shunting plank for Christmas Morning. K2105 has already been run in, and is currently harnessed to a Roxey 3-Set (No 148 in Malachite). A Northstar design 2-Set (Number 734 also in Malachite) will join Number 207 just as soon as it the due running-in is completed. However, the package I chose to open first contained the "South Western Circular" for January 2016. An essential treat that I have enjoyed for, I guess, some forty years. After some 18 years as editor, CC announces his well-earned retirement. Many thanks, Colin, yours will be a hard act to follow. B Edited December 24, 2015 by Peter Bedding 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Tim Dubya Posted December 24, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 24, 2015 ....harnessed to a Roxey 3-Set (No 148 in Malachite). A Northstar design 2-Set (Number 734 also in Malachite) Would love to see some photos of those Peter. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) Would love to see some photos of those Peter. Cheers I hope this works. Set 734: Set 148: Edited December 24, 2015 by Peter Bedding 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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